Will SBL's Work ?
Posted by: Ade Archer on 04 April 2001
I have the opportunity to try out a pair of approx 1993 SBL's which apparently had a bass driver upgrade in about '97. They will probably cost in the region of £800 which seems reasonable, but I have a couple of questions.
Firstly,one dealer has told me 140's won't drive them properly, another said they'd be fine. I understand that they would sound better with better amps, but if I get them, I can't afford to change the amp yet.
Secondly, another dealer has said they won't work either side of a chimney breast, another said they work well almost anywhere without problems.
So who's right?
I would love Naim speakers (particularly a reasonably priced pair of SBL's) to work well in my room, but I have no reference to base my demo on as I haven't tried Naim speakers before.
I want a pair of speakers that will cope with all future upgrades ( I can't see me getting to 52/500's, but possibly anything below)
The room is about 14'x 12', the equipment is situated in an arch in the chimney breast on the longest wall, with speakers either side.
Cheers
Ade
I used a 32.5/Hicap/140 with original SBLs for some years. It worked very well IMO. However, a better preamp/amp certainly allows the SBL to do more and, yes does, provide for a better result. If you get SBLs you will not have to worry about upgrading the speakers for a very long time (well, at least until all the other gear is upgraded).
Paul
what are you running into the 140?
It was Matthew Robinson's system that convinced me of two things (amongst many others):
- That SBL's were the speaker for me.
- That a 140 will drive SBL's happily.
Of course, the better your front-end and pre are, the better it will all get. And give the former, 135's will sound much better! But the 140 works fine. I suspect it should work okay in the room you're talking about.
Mine are running like clockwork on the end of my 140. I need to sort out the low low end, but that's more an optimisation issue than any lack of grip on the 140's part.
The price you're talking about sounds about right. HTH.
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
PS - Ade, if you wanna see a snap of my less-than-ideal (that is, chimney-breasted) setup, e-mail me.
Many years ago I sold my original SBL's ( about the 10th pair to be made/sold ) to a guy who at that time owed a NAIT 1. At the time I was using 135's & I tried to persuade him that it was not a good idea to run them with a NAIT. He said more 'boxes' were imminent & bought the SBL's.
I got to hear them with the NAIT & was totally amazed at how good they performed. The biggest let down was lack of bass. I'm sure from this experience that a 140 would be fine.
Rico, I thought you were a Kan man, when did the SBL's land?
Bob.
All your bass not belong to man with SBL's & NAIT 
In answer to the question of what will be feeding them, it's a CDX/82/Hi/140.
Being a few years old, but having been updated in 1997/8 are they comparable to much newer ones in performance, I was told there has only been one update to SBL's, so I'm assuming that's been done
Cheers
Ade
The SBLs have received new mid/bass drivers but in addition also had a number of minor changes. Some claim that the most recent SBL cabinets (new manufacturer) give an even better result. The used SBLs you are considering probably are not the equal of those that are brand new but at the price would still be well worth it. I still use original SBLs which IMO are still an excellent speaker.
Do a search under SBL revisions. I believe David Dever from NANA posted all the changes a couple of months ago.
Here is what David posted:
quote:
- Naim uses a different cabinet maunfacturer for the SBL- the wood veneer wraps completely around the enclosures
- the stand tubing has changed
- the bass driver is now made in-house
- the PAXO crossover is currently wired with NACA 5.
quote:
Rico, I thought you were a Kan man, when did the SBL's land?
Bob
The SBL's landed about a week after the Bristol Show, along with an XPS. The Kans, alas, must go, and are now looking for a new home - I did wonder about keeping them for future applications such as surround speakers, but they'd be wasted there. You Kan see them here.
I'm very pleased with the effect, despite my love of the Kans.
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
it seems to me that some system work really well on fairly 'minimal' amps.
Others seem to need more of everything to give a good sound, and I think this is down to room acoustics. A bad room seems to need lots of control for the speakers to give a reasonable account of themselves.
This may be a good argument for spending some money on the room rather than lots on amps!
cheers, Martin
Contact Jean-Christophe, who's looking for a good pair of Kans and will give them a good home.
Nice pictures too.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Also, are they normally flat against the wall, as I've found a tiny amount of toe-in sounds better. This may be because I've got a chinmney breast between them, as flat against the wall I think they sound a bit too much 'left and right', if that makes sense to anyone.
One more thing,how much are the gaskets/sealant?
Cheers
Ade
I don't believe it's very much to get a new sealant kit, but I don't know the actual cost.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
I've been trying the SBL's since yesterday, and am quite impressed. I had to transport them from the dealers' unboxed, and although the seal seems intact, how robust is it, and is it easy to tell if it's not properly sealed. The reason I ask is that the bass sometimes seems slightly undefined with some bass lines a little difficult to follow.
'Do not transport SBL's without first separating the cabinets!' was the gist of a warning on the old forum. It is highly likely the spikes have pierced the pads into your mid driver cabinet big-style. You'll need to follow the gasket kit instructions carefully - be sure to use the wood-filler as directed to fill the spike-holes in the cabinets, before installing the new alloy pads.
Which dealer let you take the SBL's that way? Shocking.
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
The thing is, the 2nd hand ones are slightly marked, don't appear to have their boxes, or the template used to set the spacing between tweeter/mid drivers. I've decided if I can get them for £800, I will probably have them, but does this seem a reasonable deal.
Also, I was hoping I would not need the garden slabs I have under each speaker, but I've still found the SBL's sound better stood on them. I have floorboards with approx 4 foot of cavity under the ground floor, and speakers don't sound as tight stood directly on the floor.
I think Mana make something for SBL's, would this solve the problem instead of slabs, which don't exactly go with the new carpet.
Cheers
Ade
Later that day.....
I've been to the dealer today to return the 250 I'd borrowed, and chatting with the owner I mentioned my plans re. SBL's. He had some display models which he wanted to sell, and after a bit of thinking on his part I've now got the opportunity to buy ex-display SBL's now, and a 250 in the next few months for a total cost of £2600 (I've had to confirm my future purchase of the 250 from him on trust)which means the SBL's will effectively cost less than £800, and apart from being a bit dusty, they are as good as new.
It may end in divorce proceedings, but is this an opportunity too good to turn down?
Cheers
Ade
[This message was edited by Ade Archer on MONDAY 09 April 2001 at 19:09.]
[This message was edited by Ade Archer on MONDAY 09 April 2001 at 19:12.]
a different cabinet maker has been used on SBLs in the last two or three years, and these are reputed to sound siginificantly better.
How old are the ex-dem pair?
cheers, Martin
I was in there the other day, and saw some Rosewood SBL's in their boxes by the workshop. Unfortunately they are out of my budget, as I want to get a 250 in the next few months.
Martin,
They are a couple of years old, but the price is a big factor. I was told they are current spec. I'm sure a new pair would be lovely, but at £2500, well...
Cheers
Ade
Hard Sell = On
To be honest, even if they cost a bit more than the black S/H ones I'd strongly recommend you buy the Rosewoods and save a bit harder for the 250. From experience, the later SBLs have a subtlety and sophistication well beyond the earlier versions even when they have the same drive units.
Also I've said before, I'm also convinced that Rosewood veneer results in a better sounding speaker than other finishes. Maybe its thicker, stronger or whatever...Put it this way, I'm stumping up for Rosewood DBLs (although there is a bit of a story there..) and those no small stretch money-wise.
In addition, how many second hand pairs of Rosewood SBLS get offered up?
Hard Sell = Off
PS Its easy to see if they are current spec cabinets, look around the back they'll be veneered.
[This message was edited by Martin M on TUESDAY 10 April 2001 at 17:17.]
If you could e-mail me with the age of your SBL's as Bob isn't sure what to do with them at the moment, and the offer is open to have a proper look at them if I'm interested, and then discuss the cost.
Cheers
Ade
quote:
Both dealers I know have a pair of second hand or ex-display SBL's, but to my surprise, neither has the gaskets/sealant to re-seal them, so it's either listen to them unsealed (not much point really), or attempt to transport the 2nd hand ones which were sealed. The ex-display ones are approx £1700, the 2nd hand ones are for sale at £850. Both are in black, and both have current drivers, so the 2nd hand ones are more appealing.
Ade
glad to see you're making progress. I still contend, however, that you'll likely not hear them properly until they are correctly set up. Any dealer content to let you take them, transport them in your wagon, and then install them, without offering you correct advice, and a gasket kit, needs his nuts put in a vice! Ok, so they're used... but they'll have to wait only "how many days?" to get some gasket kits in from Salisbury.
As mentioned priously (Martin?), if they've veneered backs, they're the latest spec cabinets. Consensus is that these are a significant improvement.
Let us know how you get on! The 250 sounds like a no-brainer, but not sure (as in, I really don't know - a tough choice!) if I'd take it in preference to a latest-spec pair of SBL's, assuming the used pair is not.
As you've probably read, SBL's are not for everybody... but if you 'get' them, they're a cracking loudspeaker for the money, either new or used.
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
my point was to look for a s/h pair which are no more than 2 (3?) years old.
Get the s/n of the offered ones & check with Naim whether they have the latest cabinet.
If so, go for it!
cheers, Martin
Martin M has convinced me to give some serious thought to his ex's, so I'm off to see the dealer later today to commence negotiations. To be fair, although I haven't seen them in the flesh, from the finish options on the Naim website, they would seem to blend in with the decor much better at home.
With this deal, I still have the option of looking for a second hand 250 in the future, rather than be committed to buying the new one, so can make up the deficit with the SBL's costing a little more now.
Stand by for an F.R.
Cheers
Ade
For your information, I re-gasketed them 2 months ago. All you'll need is a tube of silicon seal as the one I used to re-seal them is under my sink! £5 from B&Q or zilch from Bob! PS they've never been moved an inch while assembled and, should you need them, there is a spare set of metal pads hidden in the box, along with Naim's SBL set-up instruction should you need to re-build them at some point.
I have to say, I rate Bob Griffin as being rather a good dealer. A master of impartiality and gentle advice, and has plenty of nice kit.
The 147xxx s/no SBLs are probably 4Q98, so I guess these probably have the new cabinets.
You may like to experiment with something like curtains (make sure they’re natural fibres) on the sides of the chimney breast to cut down side reflections. Initially I’d probably cobble something about a foot higher than the top of the speaker and go from there.
Also, regarding positioning, are the speakers close to the side walls of the chimney breast? If so, they will be getting more bass re-inforcement than they should (they’re in a mini-corner, which is not quite ideal). It would be worth trying the speakers brought forward so the fronts are just ahead of the front wall of the chimney. Thus, go from this:-
+-----
|
|SS
|SS
+---+
......|
......|
......|
+---+
|SS
|SS
|
+-----
to this:-
+-----
|
|....SS
|....SS
+---+
......|
......|
......|
+---+
|....SS
|....SS
|
+-----
(Please ignore the dots, I can't find how to get a fixed-width font in this stupid software). You will need to see if this really works for you.
Given that you already have an 82 I reckon an XPS might give you a much more balanced system than a 250 upgrade. If you’ve not heard one before you will be astonished how much this improves the whole system.
I bet this would give you exactly the changes you’re expecting from a power amp upgrade, but more so – more grip, more dynamics with much tighter, deeper and more informative bass. Although it won’t actually go louder it will sound much louder. Best of all, though, you will find so much more information coming through, as well.
Alternatively, if you can find a CDS-I power supply (CDPS) this will give you 60-70% of the performance boost for 20-25% of the cost of a new XPS. Note that the Burndy (preferably black) MUST be modified otherwise you will fry the CDX.
Cheers, Martin
[This message was edited by Martin Payne on WEDNESDAY 11 April 2001 at 10:15.]
They are going to look lovely in their new home, although as I'm going away in the next couple of days, I've left them with Bob to look after for now.
It actually turned out the ex-dem ones were around 3 years old, almost a year older than the Rosewood ones.
As to setup, the pair I borrowed did need a fair bit of fine tuning with positioning to get them working well, but I seem to have found they sound best a couple of inches from the rear wall, toed-in a fraction. I haven't really tried them far from the rear wall, but I'm sure I will be experimenting further when the new ones are installed.
The next upgrade is now some way off, and an XPS would certainly be on the shortlist. I will probably be looking at second hand purchases when the time comes, although 2nd hand XPS's appear to be a little hard to find, so I'll see what's available when the time comes
Now...there's the little matter of telling the wife.
Hope she likes Rosewood!
Cheers
Ade
PS
Thanks all for the advice, much appreciated.
[This message was edited by Ade Archer on WEDNESDAY 11 April 2001 at 12:48.]
[This message was edited by Ade Archer on WEDNESDAY 11 April 2001 at 12:51.]
Well, I decided I couldn't go away for a few days without listening to my new SBL's, so I went in to get them from Bob, took them home, and set them up.
Now, the previous pair I tried were on the end of an 82/Hi/250, the 250 being on loan as I was going to do a deal involving both speakers and amp, so I wanted to listen to both together. The previous posts outline how I ended up with the SBL's, but the pair I have now are being powered by my 140 instead of 250.(I didn't try that combination previously before returning the loaned SBL's, as I thought I would soon add a 250).
Anyway, the problem now is that I am a little disappointed with how my new ones sound with the 140. They're good, but I expected better The only difference is the 140, and I'm sure that is the problem. The thing is, I now don't know whether it's because I need a 250 to get the sound I'm happy with, or whether my 140 isn't performing as well as it should. Previous posts seemed to support the fact that a 140 would be more than capable.
I suspect that the 140 would benefit from a service as it's 10 years old, but I don't know what difference a service makes to a power amp, or whether a 10 year old 140 would definitely need a service regardless.
My question is, what improvements have people noticed after having their power amps serviced.
I appreciate that Naim wouldn't bother making the 250 if it didn't sound better than the 140, but with the 140 hooked up, it sounds like I'm having a bad mains day all the time.
Long post for a simple question, but there you go.
Cheers
Ade