New AV3?

I should imagine licensing blur ray would be prohibitive for a small company, especially in light of the fact physical media players are starting to look like yesterdays technology

that was like one of those texts from the back of a taxi at 3am you regret.....still love an AV3 tho'

I would hazard a wild guess that Naim may quietly abandon the video side of things in the fullness of time. It must be near impossible for a small company to keep pace with the big boys and to offer competitively priced products in the rapidly evolving video market. Audio is a different matter - it is Naim's long-standing area of expertise and they can easily walk all over anything that the likes of Sony or Pioneer can come up with (so far!). The DVD5 is a fine machine, but if you discount its CD playback ability, which will for most users be irrelevant, then it is IMO very easily equalled or bettered today by machines from Pioneer etc. at a fraction of its price. It is quite simply way past its sell-by date. What was cutting-edge a few years ago with DVD players is now run-of-the-mill. I'm not saying that the DVD5 is not a good player, just that it's way, way over-priced for what it offers in DVD replay terms.

Peter

GeraldUK...Don't regret the late text! It's a very, very good point...It's just such a shame it's so quiet in this Home Theatre room, and the voices are increasingly lost and quietened....

garyi - I would be amazed that BD licensing issues, which in fact have recently become easier and cheaper for any manufacturer, are a prohibitive hurdle for Naim...They seem to be OK in licensing from Apple. As for BD and physical media having a future, I think there's still a good period ahead yet, especially in video....Not everyone in the world lives in access of 20Mb ISP lines, and I really wouldn't like downloading a film at 1080p with HD Master Audio soundtrack to fill my Kuro 50"....

Peter - No need to hazard a guess. There already IS an elephant in the room. I think we are just expected to not say anything too vocal about it all. Tried buying a new DVD5 lately ? I agree, you have it spot on. It's the price, in the reality of the AV world today, that is the square peg in the round hole. Audio wise, the player hardly has any peers (within the DVD format that is, where it has all the required codecs) and that's what was attracting me to it, but the video side is now, sadly, severely lacking....I just don't understand what happened on the additional scaler issue - it would have prolonged the life of the DVD5 so much and taken some of the sting out of £2k+ DVD player in the marketplace of today...

I have NO doubt whatsoever, that a Naim BDP or indeed even just a AV3, would be highly covetable and that I personally wouldn't be able to buy one quick enough, I swear.....Sadly, I'm just increasingly doubtful this will happen, especially in light of the current situation, lack of 'any' official word or statements and, also, the recent experiences of many Naim AV users out there....

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by pjl:
It must be near impossible for a small company to keep pace with the big boys and to offer competitively priced products in the rapidly evolving video market.
Peter

That, I think, is the point. I was discussing the matter with a friend last night, exactly in these terms, about Naim. I moved to DVD5 as only player, for audio/video because I didn't want to accumulate boxes and extinguish finances, and it replaced an Oppo DV980H, which costs, in Italy, 1/20 the Naim...

Now I am quite content with it, but it was an uncommon choice I think: those who care about video don't care for an expensive player, those who care about audio don't care about video. I was one of the remaining customers: not the rich one who adds a fancy video unit to a magnificent stereo, but the one who compromises a bit on audio to have very good performance from a single box.
How many buyers like me, though, are likely to keep a machine like the DVD5 alive? If, and when, a BlueRay DVD5 will come out, I am very much not likely to buy one: I don't care about HD video craze - after all, I can see that the girl on the screen is not a real one - and don't mean to buy or re-buy a collection of films.
In a way, I was the customer for the DVD5 - but how many me's are there?

I do love it, anyway: its video performance is outstanding even with my 2002 Sanyo PLV Z-1 LCD projector; its audio is good enaugh for me, and I have even played around a bit with output options, discovering that the AV2 is a perfectly satisfieing audio converter. But for those who are anxious about being technologically up-to-date - or wish to see always sharper and sharper fake girls on the screen, or hear louder and louder helicopters flying - the DVD5 must already seem a mammuth.

I have a DVD 5 and think its great. I watch/listen to a lot a music concerts and the DVD5 was head and shoulders sound wise to any thing else up to the same price point that I audtioned. It also replced my CD3.5/Flatcap for CD duties at which I think its also excellent.

but what about all the new dvd sound formats ? ive yet to listen but have read plenty and this surely is the way forward. At present im running my av2 with a 250 for rears and 145 for for centre with a 300 thru a 252. Any comments on tinning the naim av and amps and buying a pioneer hd surround av and keep the naim 300/252/cdx2/555ps for the music.

Ah Gerald, a man after my own heart...!

You basically have approximately the system I was planning to put together when I started to get serious with all this in the last year or so, equal attention to both AV and stereo....

However, as I have stated a number of times, I'm just increasingly uncomfortable spending such sums of money on Naim's AV products, in their current incarnation....hence, thus far, I haven't. I'm not even 100% sure they are even available to buy new right now (the DVD5 isn't even on the price list), not that I would, but even taking a sensible financial hat off, at the end of the day it is the spec of the machines that is now left wanting....

I personally think the DVD5 is now dead in the water. For me, it's attraction would be have for DVD-A duties, which presumably it would excel at, but that's a rather luxurious black box at £2600+ new or £900 used for such a relatively small amount of use...I guess if money was no object, no problem. Other than that, I just don't see it's place in the AV world of today, with 1080p screens and very competent DVD players available at a fraction of the cost...

The AV2 I think, just, has a bit more left in it. It's saving grace is the analogue inputs, allowing the HD codecs to at least be piped into it, although more and more BD players are relying on HDMI only for their output....I'm presuming (and it would be nice to be wrong) that Naim cannot simply 'add' the HD codecs to the curent AV2, so if that's a given, then we are looking at an AV3, which quite frankly I just don't see likely - as much as I would wish it to be so. I keep thinking about a good used one, but hmmmmmm......

Just joining some dots up, it is not hard to see that Naim AV has fallen into a state of disrepair, the latest chapter being the lack of a stand for their own main AV speaker! Added to that, read around some other AV forums, and there are a big group of folk out there quite angry and bitter with their lack of promised DVD5 scaler, continued repairs on their AV2 or n-Vi and the complete lack of any 'official word or statements of intent, so I reckon an amount of brand damage has been done in regards of the AV stuff - I've read a number of times DVD5/AV2 owners swearing they will never go there again. For such a small niche market, that's hardly an ideal situation and makes it even harder and less attractive for Naim to keep going at it....?

So, where does that leave us ?! The logic, advice and increasing convention seems to be to go and get a top end Pioneer/Denon/Marantz et al AVR - take the front pre-outs into your Naim NAC, and let the AVR amp do the rest. For anywhere between £1k and £2k you are going to get state of the art HD codecs, video scaling, switching, surround amplifiers, etc etc....It's hard to resist. I even have a Marantz 8002 already (although I might switch it to a Pioneer to match my TV and BDP) offering all this....And yet, deep down, I don't want to use it. That's what pisses me off. I really want Naim. And that's how I got here. I presume we are all into Naim and on this forum because we like top quality audio, attention to detail, going that extra 10%...I want my AV set up to be the same, after all, it will probably be listened to as much or more than my stereo....The AV2 is so perfect in it's approach and purity. Audio only. It's just, well, old....and now over-priced.

I'm almost resigned to the separate Japanese AVR approach, with the front's going through my 282. But I ideally wanted Naim amplification all round, whether it be the 175 or how you have done it (my ultimate), but that is hard to do without having the AV2 in place to send the signal around...

So, to get back to your point, it's a difficult situation to do the best thing. You already have all the Naim elements, so don't have to face that outlay and it would be easy to just keep what you have....However, if you were to jump in a different direction, arguably, you are going to get a lot more for your money and be set for the future...Depends on your uses - do you have a big screen, have BluRay (or intend to) or are you more than happy with DVD for another few years...?

I think what a lot of us want is a high quality AV audio processor, without the amplification, and possibly without a video side too. Which is what the AV2 was. The problem is, there is very little like it out there....On my list, is the Marantz 8003 pre/pro, there's a new Rotel pre and later this year will be the appearance of Arcam's AV888HD pre - which if nothing else changes, I might seriously look into (A very good move and practice of Arcam, is they tell you what their plans are, that products are in the pipeline even if not yet ready, so as a potential customer, you at least KNOW and can choose to hold on or not).

Do you have any other ideas apart from the Pioneer, I would be interested ? I know the top end LX90 is supposed to be fantastic, although you are looking at £5k.

Best, Steve

Oh, by the way, the sound performance increase in the HD codecs, from what I have heard, is actually a bigger jump than even the picture increase....So yes, worth it !!

hi steve , thats a cracking reply and right on the money. Yes ive got a 50" pro pioneer and already own a pioneer bluray that i had chipped to make multi region as id already bought a lot of bluray in Hong Kong before i returned back to uk after 10 years away. I recently bought a 555ps and i cant leave the stereo alone now and really have got the bug again , so want to get the best out of my AV also. Im on sky hd and also use lovefilm (no brainer) so use it nearly as much as the hifi. Only problem with tinning the naim AV stuff is of course shortly after doing so naim will announce a new av3 and i'd be devastated (and skint from having to replace everything). Maybe best to sit on the fence a little longer ?

looking at this months whathifi i think the denon is the one to have

come on naim - im surely not alone here!!! give us a sign !!

thanks for the heads up on the arcam , thats a beauty.

Yeah, it's a tough call hey...Sit around and wait, loosing time, and nothing possibly happening, or just say sod it and give up on it...I'm personally almost at the latter, mostly through despair at the silence, though have a month or few to make up my mind firmly...we'll see.

You clearly want the best in your AV too. I've got the 500A and I just want everything else around it to be at the same level.... I was going to plunge for the LX91 BDP (which seems to be the champ, plus for the analogue outs) and was going to buy in UK for region B (as I will probably shift back there sometime) - I didn't know they could be chipped on the BD side...Have to talk to you about that !

Early reports of the Arcam 600 seem very very positive...and I reckon in black, with the plain front and green display, it might blend in...!

I just don't see them doing it, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Its a limited market and I bet naim have their hands full with all this server malarky.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
I just don't see them doing it, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Its a limited market and I bet naim have their hands full with all this server malarky.

I have to agree with Garyi here.

You can already get a decent sound using one of the better jap av amps with Naim amplification.

There's a much better chance that Naim are trying to do something similar to Linn with their DS series. If they do it right there will be huge demand.

Jay

Reading thoru this post, I have begun to feel a marked discomfort; a creepy feeling was surrounding (goes without saying) me, but I couldn't define it...
Then, I saw it: I am a fool. I have just bought a DVD5 and, what's more, a McCard to play the 12 DVD-A's I'll find (but I'll be happy to enjoy the Donald Fagen trilogy, to begin with). DVD5 is absent from the latest Naim price list, AV3 is just about to make the AV2 obsolete; those who take our lives in their hands - well, at least our spare time - are already planning the new format that will make Ol' Blue Ray (not a jazz singer, I presume) useless in a few years (months?), sending him in the company of CD, DVD-A, SACD...
When the DVD came out, its sound seemed peerless - we came from VHS. Now, without the HD codecs we go nowhere. Meanwhile, the LP worshippers are the only who can count on a perennial supply of software. There's something ironical in this, and the most ironical thing is having to see Naim have to go after the market like a teenager after the latest iPod or the shortest skirt.
Please, Naim, do continue to service my DVD5- if not for my sake, for the sake of good ol' times.

Max - No way are you a fool, far from it ! None of this changes what you have and the enjoyment that the DVD5/AV2 will give you (when they are working!)...I would still love to have what you have....But I think, personally, all I am expressing is a doubt on whether this is now the best purchase for me in light of how much they cost and what they offer within the AV world of today...I am not a rich guy so I just want to make the possible choice and as I have said, I wanted that to be all Naim....It's just so frustrating that the whole AV product line hasn't moved since it was released (and released to such critical applaud and many 5 star reviews), and doesn't show signs of doing so in the future...There just seems to be silence, which in itself is frustrating and further turning me off investing in this direction.

Don't worry too much about your AV2 being obsolete, as I really just don't see a AV3 coming...As for your DVD5, Naim being Naim, I think they will always honour to service it...

Gary & Jay - Absolutely, I agree, and I know I'm barking into a wilderness with the odd bit of tumbleweed but I guess I just have that last bit of hope something might happen. They can drop the video stuff, I would 1/2 understand that, but an audio processor I would have thought would be right up their street and would always have a place in the line-up....I'm just a customer, but surely I and others indicate demand ? I appreciate what they have going on with HDX, servers, DACs, trying to sort out the speaker line and as Max says chasing the iPod crowd, and I want that them to do well at this, but I thought there was a AV department...

I always think it's funny when I click into the Home Theatre forum and the little catch phrase at the top says Please remember to log out when you leave which just makes me think of the last person to leave turning the lights off !...It's not exactly the same as 'Your nobody without a Naim' in the HiFi room...

GeraldUK - Are you meaning the top end pre/pro from Denon (I don't have the current WHF, gets here late) ? That's a serious beast ! Check out the Arcam 600, already out in small numbers, as well as their pre/pro separates following later - it's supposed to be sounding very good. They will also have a BD player later in the year, although like you, I think I will go Pioneer for that. On the player front, I guess things might all change when there are top end universal players out, offering BD/DVD/DVD-A/CD and SACD...I believe Denon will be the first in the next couple of months with the A1UD - expensive though!

Steve

some good posts and a major grip of mine that almost resulted in me being banned from here. There was another thread and a post by one of the naim guys that hinted at a 555 style av pre amp. It was just a hint though.

I agree with the post that what Arcam are doing with hinting on what's available in the current economic climate makes fantastic business sense if Naim were to do similar I would start saving my penny's and when the product hit the market I would be in a position to buy. I do note Meridian are starting to follow suit by letting dealers know up front what's in the pipeline so they can pass that information on to customers.

Arcam's avr600 makes me wonder what naim are playing at this product looks top notch and show's that british companies can compete and produce well priced competitive components. It make's me wonder if Naim is now more focused on music and the streaming of music if this is the direction they are going fair enough it's a pity as the av2 dvd5 are top notch.

finally i disagree with the dvd5 being redundant as a component combined the two are designed to work together its how you get the Av2's setup menu on screen. they certainly work well as a pair and you would still be hard pushed to find a better dvd player than the dvd5. the fact also is the market has changed there are far fewer av pre amp's these days most are one box stops with built in amps they simply sell better to the average consumer. primare are also ready to launch two new hd products as well, I like the look of there sp22, interestingly this is retro upgradable with changeable boards something that more companies should look at too ensure future proof products.

the market has settled at present blu ray is here for the cinema fan and certainly takes av to a different level over dvd if the prices of the disc's can settle slightly it's easy to see it becoming the more preferred source. I was in hmv yesterday and the prices of cd's and dvd's which are only a couple of months old are almost half there original price. blu ray seems to hold its price and sections are increasing in size.

so it's really down to naim I don't buy the line that if they tell people of future av products that the present line up will drop sales the sales of the av range must be slower now than in the last few years. I really would like some clarity from them I will no doubt drop my current line up in preference for another brand only for naim to launch a new range, why lose an existing customer simply through poor information flow?. I would respect the brand more if they said for the next few years, we have put av development on hold to concentrate on the music side of the company, at least as a consumer I would be able to understand this and with a sad heart look else where. What I can't understand is the lack of concrete information on future plans.

sorry for the rant

This is one of the reasons I may end up moving away from Naim, for everything except my amplification.

Obviously there is change going on in the market just now and I would look to understand how I could move my AV2 and DVD5 forward. With, what I would assume to be, the drop off in AV2 / DVD5 sales, it would be good if Naim could let me know the roadmap for where they are going to be (if at all) regarding HD audio and Blu-Ray video products.

Roy.

quote:

Originally posted by Roy Donaldson:
This is one of the reasons I may end up moving away from Naim, for everything except my amplification.

Obviously there is change going on in the market just now and I would look to understand how I could move my AV2 and DVD5 forward. With, what I would assume to be, the drop off in AV2 / DVD5 sales, it would be good if Naim could let me know the roadmap for where they are going to be (if at all) regarding HD audio and Blu-Ray video products.

Roy.

tbh Roy I doubt very much that many companies will look at high end blu ray players amps and av pre amp's yes. I just can't see many companies spending the time trying to create a product that can perform well with cd,dvd,blu ray and can upscale. I think source wise the best it will get will be from denon and sony. However interestingly again Arcam have said they will have a blu ray player on the market later this year.

Good to see your names back in here Neill and Roy....We really should all try and get more attention in this room, it's always quiet....

Neill, spot on: "why lose an existing customer simply through poor information flow?"

quote:

Originally posted by SC:
Good to see your names back in here Neill and Roy....We really should all try and get more attention in this room, it's always quiet....

Neill, spot on: "why lose an existing customer simply through poor information flow?"

yeah mate I spoke to Roy on the phone the other day and thought I would stick my head back in here. I will be honest there is not much naim are producing at a price point I see value for money that interests me.

It would be good if they could let there existing customers know what's in the pipeline. arcams method of now telling you yes we have a blu ray player and a new av pre amp is generating interest in the brand it really means the product is selling before release. Naim however have always played there cards close to there chest which in the end may cost the company customers and sales.

Neill - I didn't quite understand some of your last post, but I do think there will be lots of top end stuff....With regards to universal players, the about to be released Denon A1UD will be the first and I'm sure following their Bluray 2500 and 3800 players it will be very fine indeed...I probably wouldn't consider it for serious CD use, but it could be a very good ONE machine for BD, DVD and DVD-A....

As you say, Arcam are seriously getting on board with it all...their BDP is set for end of year -I think a prototype has already been seen by WHF magazine...

sc sorry mate my typing is awful I have just spent five minutes editing so I can understand what I have written lol.

yeah I agree with most of what you are saying I have never been a big fan of arcam however they do seem to be the one british brand pushing home cinema. maybe one day Adam will reply with some form of info for us lads

I've said in the past to people in Naim, that I am happy to sign a NDA regarding upcoming products, it is something I regularly do with our own customers in my job.

To go out and choose to buy a Oppo, Denon or Panasonic Blu-Ray, or processor etc. and then to find out that there is an option from Naim shortly would not go down well.

But, obviously Naim works differently and I may need to purchase something shortly.

Roy.