New AV3?

A good idea Roy.....though, I guess, unlikely...

I agree, it would not go down well to get that sinking feeling after purchasing some of the current alternatives and then see Naim finally produce something.....Although, probably worse, is to hang round all year, dangling on vapours, and still nothing turn up.....

I've given up on expecting to hear about any exact products...I would simply be grateful to hear whether Naim intend keeping their toes in the AV sector, which in itself, presumably, would indicate a value in holding on for a bit longer...

I really would rather put my money towards Salisbury with all this, and whilst I have a little bit of time where I can hold due to a probable relocation, after that I'm going to have to decide....It would be a shame, for such apparent reasons, Naim's loss would be Arcam/Pioneer/Marantz's gain, even if it is just a few £grand....

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by SC:
A good idea Roy.....though, I guess, unlikely...

I agree, it would not go down well to get that sinking feeling after purchasing some of the current alternatives and then see Naim finally produce something.....Although, probably worse, is to hang round all year, dangling on vapours, and still nothing turn up.....

I've given up on expecting to hear about any exact products...I would simply be grateful to hear whether Naim intend keeping their toes in the AV sector, which in itself, presumably, would indicate a value in holding on for a bit longer...

I really would rather put my money towards Salisbury with all this, and whilst I have a little bit of time where I can hold due to a probable relocation, after that I'm going to have to decide....It would be a shame, for such apparent reasons, Naim's loss would be Arcam/Pioneer/Marantz's gain, even if it is just a few £grand....

Steve

my feelings exactly nail on head for me.

Come on Adam you must have read this give us guys a little respect and let us know a basic outline of plans please.

All plans are subject to change depending on market conditions, and once a cat is let out of a bag the expectation it sets can only lead to disillusionment and disappointment - which is not what Naim are about. They're playing their longer term cards close to their chests which indicates that they have learned the lessons of the past. All they keep saying is that they have lots of things in the pipeline, and that's only right in my view.

Frank,

I have a full Naim AV setup. I would like to move to Blu-Ray and HD codecs.

Today, Naim tell me there is no product. I go and spend x thousand pounds on Linn DS, Pioneer Blu-Ray and Arcam processor, next month Naim announces new products. Not a happy bunny....

Roy.

its sods law , let me go and bite the bullet and get the cheque book out then you guys will be sorted next week when new av3 is announced....doh

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
All plans are subject to change depending on market conditions, and once a cat is let out of a bag the expectation it sets can only lead to disillusionment and disappointment - which is not what Naim are about. They're playing their longer term cards close to their chests which indicates that they have learned the lessons of the past. All they keep saying is that they have lots of things in the pipeline, and that's only right in my view.

A very reasoned and understandable opinion Frank, and I do agree with certain aspects of this...However, to be honest, I don't think this is good enough, especially in today's market. As can be seen just in these couple of pages, there are lost sales happening, right now. The irony of course, will be in 12 months time when the whole AV line-up is historical, we'll be told it was due to lack of sales, interest and profit return....Working in media, I personally would point the finger at PR.

Perhaps you know more as a trade member, but having trawled through this forum as a customer I have NEVER seen any reference to "lots of things in the pipeline" with regards to AV nor heard as much from any Naim dealer I have dealt with....In fact, it's extremely rare to see an official comment in this particular forum room - one of the few I dug up the other day during a search for something else was an apology and intent to ship the DVD5 scaler in summer 2007...

Steve

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...?r=94310292#94310292 and many others.

I have written many times in the past as to why it was and is a bad idea for us to release information about upcoming or planned products.

As a customer you can wait forever as each actual product arrives and you hear rumours of the next killer feature - 'available' only in a future, developing, range.

If hi-fi, AV was food - you could starve. It's actually a lot less important than that.

We do not, and cannot, satisfy all customers' performance, feature and price requirements. For some, the desire for a Naim logo on units also comes with the demand that they be exactly what you were looking for. They won't be - neither will most alternatives on the market.

My advice has always been -

WHEN buying - buy the best, in your opinion and for your needs, of what IS is available.

Oh well....That's that.

A shame really.

well a simply yes future developments are planned or there not would have been helpful guess not then.

No manufacturer shows his hand before he's in a position to deliver. The competition keeps a close eye on anything anybody does. If announcements come out early, the competition has a chance to catch up. It's nonsense to do anything else.

Well remember when the AV2 was launched there was the mythical video switcher (It was mentioned but never appeared - Adam why did you tease me) that went on for ages.

To be honest, my AV is 100% NAIM, and on my Blu Ray BD30 via the AV2 it sounds better decoded than direct, and most things do.

I only got the AV2 after I found there would be no switcher (More fool me - don't ask about the switch problems I have)

But would I pay full price for an AV2 (Or a Denon 1090 etc) today then "No", with the way technology is changing (and it can sound good) it's not worth the money as you can but better a year later.

However amps - yes Naim, perhaps in 10 years time when video processing is sorted, and we'll acknowledge - Naim for the there qualities in that.

Well, I read that Denon have 'announced' they are working on updates to their mid and high-end AVR range, with details to be released in May. How informative...and helpful.

So, along with the current Arcam/Marantz/Pionner options I'm now looking at instead of a AV2/3, Denon have effectively thrown their hat into my ring, and it's up to me whether I choose to wait for the models to come out should I be interested enough, or not......Information is a very powerful thing.

Whilst I agree with you Frank that a manufacturer shouldn't be giving his/her hand away or release specific product details they are not confident of delivering, none of this is largely relevant to what is being asked here....Just a statement of intent or a confirmation that NaimAV is alive and active MAY just be enough to keep loyal advocates around...Otherwise, as seen and sensed, they are leaving fast. And that's the fans - out there in the wider AV market, forget it, I don't think Naim even register now.

As I have posted above and elsewhere, I personally don't expect any exact 'announcements' of any specific products (although something in my head still says why not?)...I don't really need to know about a BlurayUniti, or the spec of a future 6 way AV amp with 75w etc etc.....No, I'd just like to know if investing in any current Naim AV, with my hard earned money, is a safe thing to do, whether I can expect a future and development path - as I could do with the stereo line. I mean, I'm sitting here, have the money, want to spend it in Naim's direction, not asking for much other than 'is it worth us hanging on for a bit'.... I don't think that is a lot to ask and surely I and others deserve such respect. I'm not sure if we are verging on arrogance here, or simply neglect.

It's interesting that the future stereo DAC was rushed into a case to be shown as a 'prototype' at Bristol isn't it....Slight show of the hand there. Following the line of reason in announcing products that confidently can and will be delivered, NaimAV relatively looks shut down.

Which is kinda strange in terms of the wider market. Pick up a copy of say WHF magazine - is it 70% AV or 70% stereo that fill the pages...?

Back to the AV3 as originally posted. For me, the AV2 was the jewel in the AV line up, very Naim. With the possible exception of the n-System (which is now handicapped sans stands) I feel the rest can go - an official announcement would be so much cleaner. The DVD5 is outdated and thus too expensive. The n-Vi was a technical disaster. I really, really feel an updated AV2 would have a place in the whole Naim line, regardless of it being AV based. I cannot believe we are talking massive R&D to add the HD codecs and possibly a HDMI port/switch/passthrough. Forget video.

I don't know, perhaps the few of us here are whistling in the dark....I certainly don't appreciate the guessing game and if it wasn't for the quality of the products I wouldn't otherwise think the same of Naim....

Perhaps I'll catch a glimpse or hint of an AV3 at the factory in August, although more likely, I'll be in possession of an Arcam600 or Marantz pre by then, simply because of 'information'.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by SC:
Well, I read that Denon have 'announced' they are working on updates to their mid and high-end AVR range, with details to be released in May. How informative...and helpful.

So - only a mug would buy any of the present Denon products now.

Come May and you will have the 'details'. Later will come the products, reviews and possible auditions - just when Arcam announce their new models and Sony trail their 2010 range. I suppose this way works if you produce new product every year or two. Perhaps.

@adam

at least it would be interesting to know whether Naim intends at all to present an AV3 at all. I currently build up an AV system aside of my Naim stereo set-up and as sure as I am about Naim amps (Nap 145 for center and Nap 200 for rears ordered), as indecisive I am about the processor to use. I would like to have one that can decode the HD formats though it is not a must. What I would like to avoid anyhow is to acquire an AV2 and to experience that 5 months after an AV3 is presented which would be the model actually I wanted to have and which I could only buy when selling the AV2 with a significant loss.

Therefore it would just be interesting to know whether Naim actually considers the implementation of an AV3 in its product line at all or whether that will not happen within a year or two. Then I may decide between AV2 or another Pre with all the bells and whistles.

Cheers

Georg

He's not going to tell us you know.....

Isn't it possible to just use the pre-outs from a decent AV amp into some Naim amps and speakers?

quote:

Originally posted by rackkit:
Isn't it possible to just use the pre-outs from a decent AV amp into some Naim amps and speakers?

Gosh...Hadn't thought of that ! Problem solved folks. Sorry Naim, no need for a AV3 et al after all....

I believe it's about the same 'possible' as using the connections on a Lavry instead of those on a 555

Thanks for reading rackkit.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
If Naim bring out a new box tomorrow? It might be good? But It will be out of date by Wednesday.

Nah, I don't accept that Stu. Besides, is that any reason not to do things - we'd all stand still otherwise.

In terms of an updated AV2, at the minimum, we are simply talking added HD codecs which have come with the BluRay format. I can't see them (the codecs) chopping and changing as do other aspects of AV - how long has DD and DTS been the main stay of DVD format ? The AV2 actually isn't outdated when talking in terms of DVD format, it has everything it needs, but for BD and the future it's struggling - I wouldn't even be 1/2 thinking about it now if it wasn't for it's analogue input, but then that forces the decoding further up the chain to the player and I would rather have had Naim do it...

They should forget video, they have obviously struggled as the sorry tales of the scaler, switcher, n-Vi, moody DVD5 have shown....

But audio, they excel......Which is why I passionately argue there is a place for a processor in Naim's portfolio.

Steve

Spot on Steve. The AV2's a superb processor, it just lacks HD decoding. I guess the main complication is having to pass through the video signal to extract the audio stream via HDMI.

So, to be PRACTICAL TODAY.....

BluRay source.

Feeds top quality picture to top quality screen (eg Kuro or JVC projector)

Feeds HD sound to ????????????? what's the best bet TODAY (AV2?).....just assume Naim will NEVER produce an AV3 (or a suitable mod to the AV2)

Output from ????????????? above will go to Naim power amps (135s/250s) then speakers.



Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by SC:

quote:

Originally posted by rackkit:
Isn't it possible to just use the pre-outs from a decent AV amp into some Naim amps and speakers?

Gosh...Hadn't thought of that ! Problem solved folks. Sorry Naim, no need for a AV3 et al after all....

Thanks for reading rackkit.

Sorry SC but i'm confused as to whether your reply was meant to be sarcastic or not?

quote:

sales

quote:

So, to be PRACTICAL TODAY.....

Top quality picture to top quality screen - check. However you'll need a switcher for this if you've multiple sources/screens.

Feeds HD sound to -
- Another unit ???
- AV2 via analog (Which may or may not sound better than bellow)
- AV2 that then decodes Dolby or DTS

Output goes to Naim power amps then speakers.

I'd like to see an AV3 that could cope with the high definition digital streams but these are also tied up with HDCP which is a nightmare.

As far as video switching goes, again apart from changing standards, HDCP is a nightmare. While I can get mine to work often I need to completely reset (I.e. power down and up in the correct sequence).
Why will my DVD (Denon 3910 not work through my switcher), Why when changing output devices does it take up to 2 minutes to sync, Why do I need to reset things over time.
All these issues seem to be down to HDCP.

Since Naim have a standard to maintain I'm sure they would not want to release kit that would not work 100% of the time so they don't do it.

I think the industry have shot themselves in the foot with the DRM especially HDCP as it makes life so difficult to ensure everything works together seamlessly.

I like my Naim stereo and would be keen to see a processor / pre-amp from Naim that would give the same sound 'footprint' and could decode HD via HDMI. With scaling taking place in the player (BD&DVD) and LCD/Plasma or via a dedicated video scaler I'm not convinced any more than a pass through would be required in the processor.

I would also like to see upgraded NAP175 (275 or 375) with 80w and / or 100w.

My ideal situation would be a 1 box preamp and 1 box with 5 power amps that cost about £3k to £5k each and can be used for HD AV & stereo sound without compromising sound quality. I get the impression that avoiding video circuits is the only hope of managing this.

Regards,

Huw

Adam - I see aspects of your argument, I always have. In reverse, I just wish my, and others, opinions on all this would be given a little more regard, particularly at Naim. The silence is deafening.

I believe these few pages show a degree of interest. And that's just the forum.

As for current customers instantly becoming 'mugs' following manufacturer announcements, I disagree...It gives them choice. They can choose to wait if the likely upgrades will be of benefit or buy now happy with the current spec set. There were plenty of happy shoppers running around purchasing Onkyo 875's after the announcement of the 876, content with what the previous model offered and those that wanted the extra this or that, held on for the new model...

lawoftrust - Exactly. My position is much the same. At this stage, it would be hard to deduce whether Naim are even still in AV.

tonym - The system you have would be my dream system - that I'm pretty sure I will be lucky to ever own ! So I certainly value your feedback and I know you take your AV side of things seriously. Yes, it IS a superb processor but how to get the HD codecs ? I know there are standalone HDMI switchers out there now which will strip out the audio signal, but I guess one is then introducing a potentially lower quality element into the chain? I had planned to take 5.1 analogue into the AV2 for the HD stuff - BUT, I have just discovered a hiccup with what I was going to do, as explained below...

Don & Stuart - Yes, picture signal goes straight off to the screen. In my personal case the switcher isn't such an issue, as I have the Pioneer 500A with the separate media box, effectively acting as the switcher...However, I appreciate, for others = hassle. Unless you have an AV amp doing this, which then defeats the point of this discussion re AV2/3.

The sound. This is where it gets tricky. My plan, was analogue out from a top BDP like the LX91 into the AV2 for the HD stuff. Then, for standard DD and DTS off DVD from the same player, to have that piped into the AV2 through Coax, allowing the AV2 to do it's thing best....Problem: The LX91 will only allow for one audio output type, set in preferences. I was presuming I could set analogue for BD and Coax out for DVD replay. It doesn't seem so. I'm not sure about other BD players like the Denon. If I was forced to feed in ALL audio into the AV2 as analogue (and thus all decoding done at the player), then I don't see the point of the AV2 at all ! It would just merely be a convenient way of piping the sound to the various Naim amps and act as a volume control - nice for £2600

Stuart - just on one point, I am more than confident that decoded HD analogue will sound better than the embedded standard codec which would be otherwise used by the AV2. Sure, on some discs there might not be much in it, depending on the quality of the mastering, but when HD audio is good, man is it good....

So unless something like the Denon DBP allows for dual audio output types, that plan of mine seems to have come to a screeching halt ! Or, to rephrase, in light of this practical reality and Naim's apparent discard of AV, sod the AV2, give it up, and go get the Pioneer AVR to match the BDP or the next best musical match, the Arcam....and yeah, front pre into the Naim kit. Just leaves me a bit blah really....



The wish ? AV3: As current AV2 + HD codecs, full height case, accommodating 2 HDMI inputs/1 out (video pass-through), all other connections the same. £2500.

But hey, I'll even just settle for knowing there's an intent to produce such a box....

Steve

Huw - you posted whilst I was writing.

Spot on mate. Spot on.....

S