MacBook or Notebook PC?

For your needs, Mac would be perfect. The new Leopard operating system and iLife 08 take iTunes and iPhoto up a notch. They also have Office for Mac, and they will run windows using Parallels or Bootcamp. They may cost a bit more, but you should give one a try. Will be easy to sell if you don't like it.

We have 5 Macs networked wirelessly at my house. Trouble free pretty much. Getting an external hard drive to enable use of the new Time Machine backup program, to open for Christmas.

One word of advice, if you are not in a rush, is to wait until after MacWorld in January to see the new product announcements. I bought an iMac for Christmas a couple of years ago only to see it upgraded a couple of weeks after the holiday. Never again.

Buy the mac. You won't be sorry.

The age old debate. Well, as funky as Macs look. And we all know that they do! They're fairly average. They put style over function.

They are inherrently [probably] more stable than PCs because they are actually incapable of performing many of the subtle tasks that a PC can. Thus since you can run virtually nothing interesting on it, there is very little that can crash it! You're stuck to stock software which comes with the machine and although is fairly good (on the grounds it has to be because hardly anything else is available) it isn't really a "choice" it's a limitation.

More convincingly, many of the issues of crashing on PCs stem from the fact that most PCs are made of "cheap" hardware. If you go branded the higher quality power supplies with proper heatsinking, better quality connectors and better class hardware with proper OEM support will actually eliminate at least 90% of the probability of crashes through bad power and poor cooling. Apple will do this for you (their equipment is now just PC hardware built to a tight tolerance after all) but so will Toshiba and Lenovo and Dell (consider those brands which produce hundreds of devices for corporate purchases).

I'm not trying to discredit Macs. But they're really bad value "consumer" items. I spent aaages trying to convince myself that I could actually use one but in the end the truth is that a PC is cheaper and has 1000x the available software and utilities and spares support is exceptionally straightforward. For the record, I have been investigating this very thing this week, I am looking to buy a laptop in the early new year! I really wanted a MacBook. I would regret it though.

Don't forget also that the current fastest Windows Vista notebook is a MacBook Pro.

quote:

I'm not trying to discredit Macs.

You fooled me.

Be very wary of tossers who are on the wind up and have no idea what they are on about.

i was on the same boat.
Tried a not-so-old macbook several days...
Got ThinkPad at the end.
IMO:
Mac is about fancy, lifestyle, graphic, new things
Windows is about statistics, simulations, compatibility

quote:

IMO:
Mac is about fancy, lifestyle, graphic, new things
Windows is about statistics, simulations, compatibility

Interesting. Why didn't you install windows on the Mac and have the best of both?
'New things?'

"You're stuck to stock software which comes with the machine and although is fairly good (on the grounds it has to be because hardly anything else is available) it isn't really a "choice" it's a limitation."

I suggest you take a look at the range of software listed at Version Tracker

Just make sure you are still looking at the MacOSX list of software - this list is not a guaranteed total list.

Then go wash your prejudiced brain out <g>

quote:

I assume I would have to buy Windows Vista if I felt I needed it. How do the Mac operating systems and desktop software compare? I would be interested in using it wirelessly both at home (netgear router) and wherever I can get wireless access away from home.

Some info in layman's terms would be very much appreciated.

Steve

Now back to the original post
For serious digital photography, I would suggest the MacBook Pro over the Macbook. It's fast, can be loaded with plenty of RAM and has all the connections you could possibly need. It's not cheap, but neither is my wife.

If you feel you can't live without Uncle Bill and a daily dose of windows you have 3 options. Buy a copy of windows (I think you're safer with XP than Vista but that's just an opinion and not a fact) and install it in 'Boot Camp,' the Mac bootloader for windows or into a choice of 'Parallels Desktop' or 'VMWare Fusion,' both of which are virtualization software which allows you to run both OS X and Windows (or any other OS you choose) concurrently. Personally, I use Parallels with WinXp on a MacBook Pro when I need to venture to the Dark Side. All of the options are relatively easy to do.

Hope this helps.

quote:

I'm not trying to discredit Macs.

Yeah right. Steve disregard what this guy says. From your OP I think you would find a MacBook really ideal, though you might want to think about a MacBook Pro, which offers some advantages over the standard MacBook, as sonofcolin says.
I use an iMac for all the same stuff that you mention and it is great. For serious photo editing you might find the screen size on any laptop, Mac or PC, a bit of drawback.
Running Windows on a Mac is a doodle these days so if you have to have Windows for any reason it's a mouse click away.

Steve

I have owned a basic MacBook for nearly 2 years and do the very things you mention. It is a great computer and a joy to use. And not one virus...not one! I also use a PC at work and it does what I need it to do very well. It just isn't as easy, intuitive, and fun to use. For photos, music downloads, video etc the MAC cannot be touched. And the new Leopard operating system for MAC will blow your mind.

Finally, its worth noting that when I purchased my MAC at an Apple store it was a very busy place. But nothing compared to today. You can hardly get into the stores they're so crowded. And take a look at the stock price. I think there's a message in that.


Clay

I worked for Apple for a while. Personally I won't touch anything they make. I don't think much of their build quality (OK it may have improved, I haven't looked at their stuff for ages) and as a company they make the evil empire seem like disneyland. Totally subjective I know but they were a horrible company to wiork for so the only way I vcan express my disapproval is by not dealing with them again.

To be fair a Mac or PC would do all that you want, and I agree with Twelveeyedfish in so much as many PC problems are caused by simply throwing together a bunch of the cheapest parts available with little regard to integration/compatibility.

However regardless of the hardware you're still left with Windows, be it XP or Vista, neither of which have the best record when it comes to dealing with Malware and Spyware etc.

There's a lot of good quality freeware and low cost applications on both platforms.

Of course a Mac can also run Windows or pretty much any OS you choose via VMware Fusion or Parallels whereas a PC will not (easily/officially) run OS X.

If you're looking at a Macbook take a good look at the screen. I brought one a year ago from the Apple Store and took it back and swapped it for an iMac as I thought the screen was totally awful, not the size but the contrast and viewing angles were very iffy in my opinion.

My suggestion would be to get to an Apple Store and ask to be shown a Mac, they'll usually show you whatever you want to see, and let you play as much as you like for as long as you like if it isn't massively busy.

I think the hardware can make a huge difference. Our first desktop in 1999 was frankly hopeless and the Evesham PC we bought a few years ago (2002/3?) could be a little flakey but since I have upgraded virtually everything inside the box over the last few years it's been trouble free and I have no issues with XP. Never had any bugs (only have AVG free), never had any crashes (sod's law now...). It's used for t'internet, photo manipulation, and films from my DVD camera in the main but I never got a look in 'cos my wife was on it and then my (3 year old) daughter.

So, when a couple of years ago I wanted a laptop to do pretty much the same, plus act as a music server and make digital copies of vinyl to (but mine all mine..!), I naturally considered the sleek, stylish and trendy Mac options as well as PCs. I opted for an HP lappy PC which did everything the Mac did and more for about 2/3 the price, came with decent software bundled and actually OK speakers for a laptop (Altec Lansing thingies) although you wouldn't actually choose to sit there listening to it. It has a terrific screen which is excellent for watching DVDs on and then the (relatively) decent speakers do help too. It has been fuss free and faultless. Does everything I want. It's been carted around all over, inside and out. Been on a two week road trip of France, on handheld flight luggage. Whacked by kids toys, poked and prodded by my (now 4 year old) little girl who wnats to use this one 'cos daddy uses it (!) and it gets used every day for at least an hour or two. One of the best things I have ever bought and has been excellent vfm imo.

Oh, I'm glad to see some sensible responses instead of the arrogance of the earlier replies.

JamieWednesday hit the nail on the head.

As an aside, I'm a cross platform programmer and an engineer. I run a Sun Sparc system and PCs. I used to own a Mac - I could find nothing worth keeping it for. Frankly, the truth is that all of the professional software available for Mac (Office, Photoshop, video editing packages) is available for the PC anyway. That's because PC has been the dominant platform for the last two decades. This isn't going to change within the lifetime of your next laptop buy. Plus the PC roadmap is probably at least 10 months ahead of the Apple roadmap. Virtually all open source projects developing for PC only consider Mac an afterthought platform.

Still, as you will note I did not really discredit Apple machines. I said that their bundled software was pretty good (considering it is essentially a freebie), they're sexy, yada yada. But the fact remains that an Apple can very rarely be anything more than what comes out of the box at delivery time. They're virtually impossible to upgrade (which makes it disposable) because although they're running x86 hardware the integration is still proprietary, they only look good with [expensive] apple branded hardware (which is rarely ergonomic, take a look at the current stupid keyboard design at www.apple.com/keyboard)and they only do what Apple want it to do (which is why they appear to be more stable). Add to this they charge a hefty premium for it and you realise they're actually nothing special. They're just pretty.

Yeah, Vista is still VERY broken. XP is pretty stable on a sensibly configured machine. My XP box goes for weeks without rebooting. And also bear in mind (this isn't aimed at the person who made the OP) that I really wish I had a sexy Mac on my desk! I have an Ipod after all! Still, this is all an educated opinion. Take a look at GIMP for win32 for photo manipulation software

The new mac keyboard is without doubt one of the best keyboards I have used, excepting perhaps the very old clickty clacky keyboards, which were great.

Again all you have done is shot off your personal opinion as fact, and its not fact its just your opinion. Like assholes, everyone has an opinion.

Their bundled software is fantastic, and will more than meet the needs of most people who will not need therefore to shell out for more software. If they so choose they can also run say, oh I don't know, The Gimp for instance, and most other instances of the freeware community offerings.

Of course, in the world there is cheap things and there is expensive things. Here we are on the naim forum after all.

However if you choose, look more carefully at say a mac book. Importantly look at its residual value after 2 years ownership. They go on the bay for around the 450 mark, getting you over 60% back on your investment. Try to do that with a Dell.

Have your cake and eat it too–I run Win XP SP2 and Mac OS X 10.5 on a MacBook Pro that is now almost two years old....

Yes, you're right, that's exactly what I have done! I have had an opinion! Because that's what the thread is about! It's a discussion. I just don't feel that anyone (Except Clay) has really made any valid contributions about the Mac except that people say that they own them and they are "okay" or "fantastic" and that they'd be "fine" for what the topic starter wants to do which isn't really a reasoned argument. I have made some superficially indepth points about the PC/Mac comparison which no one has really matched except those people who agreed with me and actually bothered to write something!

The original post made two points: "there are more possibilities in terms of handling images" on a Mac - which I have suggested is not true (infact i would actively imagine quite the reverse) and this is a legacy comment from the 80s when it was true; and the other is that somehow an Ipod would be better with a Mac which after 6 years of owning one and Apples own admission that most of them are used with a PC anyway is also not true.

To consider a couple of points, a dell is not quite so obsolete after 2 years of ownership and will retain it's value (remember it originally cost significantly less) - Apple release a new operating system version with each wave of new product and traditionally "control" backawards compatibility this way. If you want the latest version of the OS you will tend to need the latest versions of the machine (hence my 'disposible' comment). Obviously this is not entirely exclusive but it's broadly speaking true (i'm going to check this out for current releases as I suspect this is going to be less true now they've reverted to standard x86 hardware which has a more linear developent path). And a quick reminder that a copy of XP will set you back about £100 (just less I think now?) on top of the inflated price of a laptop.

quote:

Originally posted by Twelveeyedfish:

Thus since you can run virtually nothing interesting on it, there is very little that can crash it! You're stuck to stock software which comes with the machine and although is fairly good (on the grounds it has to be because hardly anything else is available) it isn't really a "choice" it's a limitation.

I'm not trying to discredit Macs. .

I normally stay out of these debates, but these two statements had me in tears of laughter. It's such a daft statement (and totally untrue) that I'm speechless.

Regards

Stephen

Careful, Stephen. Anyone who dares to laugh at this self-opinionated oaf is "arrogant". He's so busy haranguing us all I fear he failed to actually understand Steve's original question. The same stupidity rolls out every time the mac vs pc debate shows up. Twelveeyedfish (whatever that means) was probably registered as someone else last time this topic wasted valuable bandwith, and contributed similarly pointless garbage.

quote:

If you want the latest version of the OS you will tend to need the latest versions of the machine

err no

check the compatibility statement for the latest OSX

at

http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/

You will see it goes back to G4 powered computers

I am only a recent migrator to macs - I have been a PC user for 23 years so I have seen and used a range of Dos's, a range of windows and and OS/2 - I do not feel as if I have been forced into using a Mac.

One thing that does appeal is that the same company specifies and builds both the hardware and the OS so that a more complete compatibility
set of tests can be carried out.

The issue I have with the PC side is the split between OS and hardware manufacturer. Apart from some of the aspects of the OS design in the past.

A simple question. As a long term PC user how different would I find Mac OS in straightforward use? Would it be difficult to adjust to using a Mac at home and a PC at work. (I know I could run Windows on a Mac but does that not rather defeat the object).

I have never used a Mac, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
A simple question. As a long term PC user how different would I find Mac OS in straightforward use? Would it be difficult to adjust to using a Mac at home and a PC at work.

Not in the least, I do just that.

Its no problem Bruce, if you know your way round the basics of XP then OSX will be a breeze. PDFs, JPGs, Word, Excel files etc all open in OSX without additional software

Bruce

You'd have no problem whatsoever switching to a Mac. I introduced a 20 strong department to Macs. We just put them at the end of the office and told folks they could give it a go and return it in a couple of weeks or just hand back their new laptop PCs. What a lot of laptop PCs we had returned - all deployed elsewhere I hasn't to add. However, I didn't find one person who preferred Windows to Mac OS X - nor did anybody complain that there was software they needed and couldn't run. This a business environment - so nobody in the office runs games.

Steve

I have had Macs and PCs available to me for years. My preference has always been the Mac and this has been reinforced by the arrival of OS X. The reason is that being a Unix based system it is far more stable than Windows or previous versions of Mac OS (anybody enjoy resolving software conflicts?). Technically, this is because Unix programs are fairly self contained - so a bad one doesn't mess-up a good one. Windows shares resources between programs and it is possible for a bad to program to mess-up a good one - it is nowhere as bad as it used to be in this respect.

Windows also suffers from an abundance of viruses and other nastiness and Mac OS X is relatively immune to such things.

The Aqua interface is much nicer to use than Windows and it is really easy to program repetitive tasks using AppleScript.

I'm not convinced Apple's build quality has improved and think my old Titanium PowerBook was one their best efforts - the new MacBooks are nice enough, but since the manufacture moved from Taiwan to mainland China I've noticed a few things that aren't what they used to be. You can find a laptop PC with better build quality than a MacBook, but then your usually stuck with Windows. Of course, you can put Linux on it, but probably not ideal for what you want to do.

I think you could use either a MacBook or Notebook PC - I'd suggest the MacBook would be cheaper if you take software in to account, more stable and easier to use - but both will work.

ATB Rotf