Moving Towards Rome.

George,
As you will well know, some Forum members will now heap a whole load of coals on your head, and some will likely be pretty rude about it - dissing both you and the RC Church.

For me, I say good for you. And encourage you in every way.

"Late have I loved you, Beauty so ancient and so new, late have I loved you. You were within me, but I was outside, and it was there that I searched for you. In my unloveliness I plunged into the lovely things which you created. You were with me, but I was not with you. Created things kept me from you; yet if they had not been in you they would have not been at all. You called, you shouted, and you broke through my deafness. You flashed, you shone, and you dispelled my blindness. You breathed your fragrance on me; I drew in breath and now I pant for you. I have tasted you, now I hunger and thirst for more. You touched me, and I burned for your peace."

(St Augustine of Hippo in his spiritual autobiography, Confessions).

Painting by Botticelli, by the way.

James

PS The Christian teaching is not quite "To give and not to receive", but rather to give without hope of return. And indeed much is received in giving.

PPS 'Comfort' is an English word which has changed its meaning over the centuries. It is 'encouragement' and 'spurring on' rather more than our modern English idea of simply seeing 'comfort' as being pretty much wholly synonymous with 'consolation'.

quote:

I think the broadness and humanity of the Roman Catholic Church

Not exactly what most people would say, narrow minded and wrapped in dogma is a phrase I see as more representative. Contraception and it's effect on poverty for example.

If the Pope had half the kindness as George, i'm sure he would broaden minds, sweep out that dogma and have the Earth orbiting the Sun again in no time!... Perhaps this is what the Roman Catholic Church need?

Happy Belated Birthday, George! Hope you had a nice one! : D

Hope you were careful what you wished for when you blue the candles out! : )

Bright Blessings
nymph

Bit like hi-fi,try a few out and see what suits best.
Regards
George

quote:

Originally posted by full ahead:
Bit like hi-fi,try a few out and see what suits best.
Regards
George

Can you mix and match? A bit of a buddhist front end, a pope-amp, muslim power and a born-again christian speaker?

Regards

Stephen

George
I recommend you read Graham Greene: Friend and Brother. by Leopoldo Duran. This is a book written by the RC priest who was Greene's companion and confidante who counselled Greene during his journey to Catholicism. Greene had exactly the same doubts and concerns as you have voiced, eventually finding solace in the church.

quote:

Bit like hi-fi,try a few out and see what suits best.

I suppose you could have a home demo?

quote:

Originally posted by bob mccluckie:
George
I recommend you read Graham Greene: Friend and Brother. by Leopoldo Duran. This is a book written by the RC priest who was Greene's companion and confidante who counselled Greene during his journey to Catholicism. Greene had exactly the same doubts and concerns as you have voiced, eventually finding solace in the church.

On the subject of Graham Greene, I thoughly recommend The Power and the Glory (part of last summer's holiday reading).

quote:

Bit like hi-fi,try a few out and see what suits best.

Flat Earth Society?

quote:

Flat Earth Society?

Those were the days none of this "other" religion nonsense if you happened to be muslim/buddist etc you would be "questioned" into converting.It's OK you probably couldn't write so you didn't need those fingers to work right anyway.

quote:

Flat Earth Society?

Surely the Earth is flat or all the people in the southern hemisphere would fall off in to space - at least that's what I always thought.

BTW what this about the Earth going round the Sun?

Did you know if you plot the ages of the descendants of Noah against how far down the lineage they are then if forms a very smooth curve with an asymptote at 120 years - the exact value the Bible says it will in Genesis. If we assume it is made up then the guy that made it up was a mathematical genius.

George

You are barking....but thanks for sharing.

George

If you don't believe in God, but want a close community of people who don't mind skepticism or a logical approach to spirituality (but positively value it), have a very structured view of charity and are not opposed to their religion evolving - then consider a Progressive congregation of Jews.

Unlike the christians though, you can't just walk in the door and join - you'll have to write some essays, do quite a bit of study, take part in the community for a while and attend festivals etc. You'll have to prove that you're sincere, in other words. (I'm trying not to mention the "C" word here...)

The Progressives allow women to be Rabbis too.

Just a thought.

Thanks for all the replies. Probably I should not have posted it, but it is sincere, if naive!

I do realise that Nigel [Cavendish] is quite right. And I doubt if anyone who knows me well would disagree either!

Dear Frank, I am not sure that there is any similarity in any of my motivations for anything in life with our former Prime Minister! The reality is that I have mulled this idea over for years, and last night had a fascinating conversation with a lapsed Catholic. It seemed a good moment ...

Dear James, Thanks for your post on a complet4ly serious level, and on a lighter note I have a way of enjoying the old usage. I meant comfort in exactly the way you suggest, within its historical usage! I love the word wit! The clue to its greater reasonance is the still current use of witless, for examople, which certainly has no humourous connotation ...

Bob, I think you are right about reading some Greene. Next up I reckon.

What is clear is that I am fumbling around for is not logical, rational, or even justifiable, but the word "comfort" is crucial to the consideration ...

Dear Deane, thanks for the thought ...

ATB from George

Hi George

An interesting post that caught me by surprise given the sceptical tenor of your posts on the topic I started (Religion in a Post-Scientific Age). A couple of random thoughts about religion that may (or may not) be helpful:

Firstly religion is often at its best when it resists its (in-built?) inclination to dogma. Fixity of belief - the notion that we have all the answers - is deadly to what I consider true religion. The value of religion for me is its insistence that we keep certain questions - about our ultimate values, and how we are to live - open, as opposed to disregarding them on the grounds that they are "unscientific", or some such. The tricky bit is keeping these questions open, whilst recognising that they may be unanswerable - i.e. resisting the temptation to give up on them. These aren't normal questions admitting of a scientific answer, but neither does religion have access to some super-natural realm, wherein the answers to these nagging questions are to be found.

Secondly, each individual's path through these issues is - or ought to be - a personal one. Just as no one can take a pee on your behalf, so it is with grappling with religious questions. This is why debates for and against the existence of God, or about the truth of religious claims generally, have a rather hollow, unreal feeling to them. It's also why I would never dream of challenging someone's religious affiliations from an abstract point of view. I might question a close friend's choice but that would not be a matter of trying to prove them wrong - it would be more like trying to persuade them to see a piece of music or work of art differently, by pointing out its salient (to me) features, and hoping they can see it that way too.

It's a peculiar business this religion. Failure to appreciate its oddity is behind many futile debates between believers and non-believers, who usually end up talking past each other. Good luck, and be careful out there!

Disclaimer - I'm not "signed up" to any particular religion, though I've been much influenced by Buddhist thought, and the softer, undogmatic side of Christianity (Quakerism, in particular).

Grappling, a good word really.



I probably don't grapple enough for my sanity or spirituality.


I was doing some Christmas shopping today in Dublin, a Dublin I've walked for 30 odd years but it felt alien to me today. The thought struck me that if there were no Christmas some capitalist would have invented it.


On the bus home I saw a sign outside a church for a candlelit carol service next Sunday at 8pm. I think I shall try and attend.


"there is more in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy"



random thoughts but this thread struck a chord.



SJB

The only benefit of becoming a Cataholic is that you will then understand ALL of the jokes in Father Ted.

seagull
(Ex-cataholic)

My thoughts on religious organisations (rather perhaps than organised religions) and the RC Church in particular are well covered on previous threads, and dialogues I've had with JWM in the past.

Whatever. After reading your considered and very personal opening post I was struck by one thing. Why did you choose to post this here?

It almost seems to me you were looking for some sort of reassurrance, or indeed encouragement with the step you are considering. This Forum has its uses but getting spiritual guidance and support? I hope you find the comfort you seek anyway-and I enjoyed reading your post.

BTW I think everone should read Graham Greene anyway. His books are rich with humanity, often in all its flawed and slightly tatty glory.

Bruce

Best thing to be is a Quaker. As far as I the Religious Society of Friends is the only religious organisation where belief in god is not a pre-requisite for joining

quote:

Best thing to be is a Quaker

George,
That's a very good suggestion. My wife attends Quakers and It does not seem to matter what or even whether you believe. Indeed, questioning one's faith (or lack of it) is recommended. They seem to cater for everyone, including the "barking". I won't join them myself, but those I have met have been very friendly, welcoming and uncritical.

On the reading front, try "In God we doubt" by John Humphrys.

Regards,
Ken

George,

Congratulations. I left the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church a few years ago but I still regard her fondly. Sure, there are people within her ranks who do her no credit (how many of us do?), but Christ was always much fonder of sinners and I rather suspect that the beam in my eye is greater than the mote in theirs.

Please don't shop around as some have suggested - you run the risk of opting for a church that suits you rather than one that might do you some good. As ever, C S Lewis got this right in The Screwtape Letters, a book which bears re-reading whenever you need a good bracing jolt of well written Christian apologetic. Mind you, if I had to choose between him and Chesterton. . .

All the best.

Chaliapin

why follow a religion which the head of before he became pope tried to cover up all the sex abuse cases in south america, a religion that worships false gods, also look at the abuse of children by nuns & priests in ireland , the abuse of children by priests in boston & los angeles which the church tried to cover up, then you have the priests in scotland who have been having relationships with parisheners, hardly a model for people thinkjing of joining their religion

All organisations have their black sheep, all societies their animals. What distinguishes one from another is what they do about the undesirables. In this respect, the Roman Catholic church has acted in an arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring manner which I can only regard as evil.
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
All organisations have their black sheep, all societies their animals. What distinguishes one from another is what they do about the undesirables. In this respect, the Roman Catholic church has acted in an arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring manner which I can only regard as evil.
Ken

I regret to disagree (and I am not a Roman Catholic myself).

Please do not in any way believe that I am condoning these foul practices; or that I consider them to be in any way acceptable .

But it is simply untrue to say that the Roman Catholic Church alone has been slow in cleaning up its act. This situation applies also in schools, care homes, youth organisations, etc etc, secular as well as faith.

And there are places that include the systematic abuse of children as a matter of policy, for example some monastic martial arts schools in the Far East. Far from cleaning up their act, they enshrine this abusive behaviour as part of their accepted culture. Do we create less of a song and dance about that because (like the Beatles going to India) we are hoodwinked by the exoticism?

It is also pretty offensive to effectively tar all Catholics, schools, youth clubs, etc etc etc with the same brush, suggesting that everyone - from grass roots to hierarchy - is complicit, which is clearly untrue.

The other thing that beggars belief is the lack of understanding about how child protection policies and laws have come into being and developed. It is not so long ago that it was almost universally accepted culture that it was ok to 'discipline' children in physical (beating) and emotional (sarcasm etc) ways.