Moving Towards Rome.

Surely a god proud of his creation should not inflict disease in the first place.Always seemed a pretty stupid thing to make everything and then allow people who are all the same as him/her to break(substitute word) it all up.
BTW what is the succes rate of the magic pond? A work collegue took 2 minibuses of disabled kids every year for 10 years not a one was "cured". Some did better at the hospital, maybe not cured but an improved quality of life.

Hi James

quote:

The 'Dawkins hook line and sinker' comment was a general comment, which is why I deliberately prefaced it with 'A general comment'.

Thanks for clearing that up - I would really *hate* to be seen as a supporter of Dawkins.

quote:

God meets us where we are. I was met via reason and logic, but I am in the minority. If you go looking for him, he will meet you at your point of need

I too liked this comment of Milo's. It has a ring of truth, however one conceives (or refuses to conceive) of God.

Thanks to you and Milo for your civility - it's always a relief when a debate about religion doesn't descend to name-calling!

Fredrik,

Are you burdened with a sense of need, or just trying to tap the infinite resource? You come across to me as someone who has a humble heart with a true meaning of practical religion by being kind and considerate to others. This is your “living” religion; if you cannot pray as you want, pray as you can, and if there is a Yahweh he’ll know what you mean.

I think religion - and there are hundreds of versions - is based morality on obedience, and I don’t see any need to join any church for validating values. Saying that, praying is thought to be an easier service which is the opium more generally chosen!

Unless your buying insurance to avoid the “fire” in the next?


Just think if Jesus Christ or a great Prophet from another religion came back, they’d find it virtually impossible to validate their credentials!

I was once on a sinking boat many moons ago, when the Padre said… religion is clinging to the boat in a swollen sea, faith is learning to swim!

Beano was educated by RC Nuns.

I moved away from Rome at a very early age. It purports to be a Christian religion but, in my experience, it is a religion that worships itself (The Pope, Virgin Mary, Catechism, ritual etc..) rather than any god as such. Many people may find this ritual itself the main attraction or comforting feature.
I found it to be a hugely corrupt, hypocritical and spiteful religion. Each to their own but I could not imagine moving towards Rome.

quote:

Originally posted by Malky:
I moved away from Rome at a very early age. It purports to be a Christian religion but, in my experience, it is a religion that worships itself (The Pope, Virgin Mary, Catechism, ritual etc..) rather than any god as such. Many people may find this ritual itself the main attraction or comforting feature.
I found it to be a hugely corrupt, hypocritical and spiteful religion. Each to their own but I could not imagine moving towards Rome.

Malky, you "moved away from Rome at a very early age". Was this to another church? If so, how has that church influenced your views on Rome? The accusations you make do seem fairly comprehensive and sophisticated for someone at a "very early age". I am very interested in this, and ask as someone who is not a Roman Catholic himself.

James

Dear Beano,

I think I may already have answered your point in my big post above, which I posted: Sun 09 December 2007 20:53.

quote:

My point overall is that no man is an island, capable of coming to all the right conclusions, even for himself, without the the thinking of generations.

The world can seem a very gloomy and doom laden place on the big picture, and yet the spark of individual kindness is what prevents complete despair.

My view, for the very little it is worth, is that I personally would draw much comfort from once again joining in formal Christian Worship, though it will never be a positon of simply proclaiming my chosen Church as being perfect or beyond criticism. That kind of thing is truly not sensible.

It would not be my aim to go about trying to preach to others. That is not my motivation. But to draw inner strength on times. Nothing more. I realise that the Roman Church does draw criticism. I think criticism would be possible of any organisation that is staffed by humans. All the sayings about the failure of the Roman Church reflect its long history and the fact that people in the Church throughout its history have on occasion seriously fallen below the best that might be hoped for. The same surely applies to any long standing body.

In a strange way if the ritual actually strengthens a person, and the services of the Church allows for a degree of freedom to be brave and be better at having the personal strength at the right moments, then the Church will have been seen to be good.

I am not sure that the strtucture that the faith is presented - the Holy Trinity and all the list of Marian aspects particualrly associated with Rome - are any problem. I don't think that should get in the way of finding personal strength in it. Indeed in a way I actually think it has a strange attraction, from which indeed a spiritual thought process can germinate. In my case that never entirely left me, though I did spend years trying to rationalise it away. Without success it now seems.

Incidentally I have no wish to build up bonus points on earth to avoid fiery damnation or even gain early access to Heaven. If one believes in it at all then I think I will leave it to the Almighty to decide if I be worthy! I am sure that any man or woman will have fallen into sin enough to be in need of quite some mercy, but I don't worry about it. I think I can make my peace on that score, and leave the rest to God's Mercy. The important thing is to try to be the best you can in my view as you go one, and try to avoid making the same mistake time and again. Nothing more is possible.

In other words, it is down to the comfort of it, the strength that would be gained, that I am looking for. Nothing else. I m sure no one on earth will think more or less of me for it, and in reality I don't worry overly what people think of me. They either like me as I am or not. Not many who I have met in life, did not eventually end up liking me. But it was not by a use of sycophancy that I got their respect.

Sincerely, George

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
you "moved away from Rome at a very early age". Was this to another church? If so, how has that church influenced your views on Rome? The accusations you make do seem fairly comprehensive and sophisticated for someone at a "very early age". I am very interested in this, and ask as someone who is not a Roman Catholic himself.

No, it was to no other church. It was to a period of agnosticism and finally atheism. I remember from about the age of seven or eight developing an unease about the hypocrisy and cruelty I witnessed. I also gained a sense of idolatry in comparison to, for instance, Protestantism. I broke with the church at about fourteen. I am not judging individual Catholics but I have a very low opinion of the Catholic church as an institution. George is free to make his own decisions, as I'm sure he will.
The sophistication and comprehensiveness you mention has not changed with age, merely my ability to articulate it.
Regards.

quote:

I am sure that Blair wants to convert so that he can be absolved of his sins - now that is an enigma!!

He once said that he was prepared to answer to his maker. For me, this might justify the existence of such an entitiy.

The tragedy of religion to me is that while all the major religions have worthy ideals (brotherhood, kindness, charity, love, etc) they are twisted in the personal ambitions of some people of power or influence and result in wars, famine, unneccessary suffering on a grand scale.

I don't think I need a religion in order to lead a moral life. Maybe that's arrogant. I was brought up as a Christian and studied the Bible. Funny, but I can't remember anything about bishops, archbishops, cathedrals or any of the trimmings which have evolved and which I encountered in my early teens. So I turned off, agnostic ever since.

I think that it possible for us to think out the answers to our moral questions where answers exist and to decide for ourselves where they do not.

If George wishes to move towards Rome, then I wish him well. It is not a course I would take or recommend but it may be the best answer for him. I don't and can't know.

Ken

Dear Friends,

Perhaps I should say that what attracts me is not the imperfections of individual people in the Church as the basic underlying principles, and good ethos. Of course all religions have been derailed for political purposes! That continues today, and one wonders how easily does fit the Machiavelians tactics of Bin Laden with the good that should be the basic aim of Islam?

Or even the "for us or against us" mentality of the so called Christian Right in the USA? Both are deeply worrying, even in todays world. But that should not rule out the possibility of seeing something deeper, and much more significant in an old, and even distressed on times by worldly considerations, Church, which stems from a wonderfully life enhancing idea of generosity and goodness in my view.

Anything run by humans is corruptable.

ATB from George

Your quest seems to be based very much round the seeking of comfort, so essentially what you are looking for is the adult equivalent of thumb sucking.

Religion has always served this purpose well and hopefully it will serve you well also.

Good luck.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Stevea:
Your quest seems to be based very much round the seeking of comfort, so essentially what you are looking for is the adult equivalent of thumb sucking.

Religion has always served this purpose well and hopefully it will serve you well also.

Good luck.

Steve

No thumb-sucking for me, mate!

From your supercilious pedastal you might also like to bear in mind that people of faith are responsible for most voluntary work throughout the world - the hallmark of people of faith tends to be care and concern for others, rather than self-concern.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
- the hallmark of people of faith tends to be care and concern for others, rather than self-concern.

Not consistent with my experience, though I would have no idea where to draw the numbers. Maybe 50/50 in my experience. I believe the current fad term is "witnessing".

Jeff A

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:



From your supercilious pedastal you might also like to bear in mind that people of faith are responsible for most voluntary work throughout the world - the hallmark of people of faith tends to be care and concern for others, rather than self-concern.

"Most voluntary work" - can you prove this?

"rather than self-concern" - and not all about spreading the word?

Dear Steve [a],

To call it thumb sucking is to denegrate something that might make me a better person. I am not sure that denegrating something with a good potential is really a very nice thing to do! Never mind, and even as I child I never did suck my thumb! My mother was somewhat strict!

I think the thing that worries people about the Church [of whatever persuasion] is that it quests for spiritual values which it is fashionable to down-play, which in my view is a tremendous pity! It causes awkward thoughts, easier to avoid in reality for some. Not that this observation is aimed at anyone here!

ATB from George

g,

an interesting thread. my grandpappy told me your didn't talk about two things -- a man's religion, and his paycheck. perhaps that's an americanism.

having said that, i know you are a thinking man, so i recommend taking a look at susan blackmore's "the meme machine." (forewarning: dawkins coined the term.) as a balance, see "darwin's black box." (another warning: a scientist debunking the adulation of darwin.) both fascinating. and sam harris, "the end of faith"; but i really liked lewis's "the screwtape letters," too.

i certainly understand the seeking out of one's fellows for worship. i was raised anglican and returned to the church when my son was a lad. there are multiple ways of looking at this; where the wisdom lies can only be a personal thing for each of us, i suppose -- and perhaps the wisdom is in coolly allowing that pursuit in all its zaniness by each person. fwiw, i have a very good friend who is a msngr. at the local archdiocese. not sure he's not really an agnostic. we are, most of us, a terrifying jumble of the wonderful and the base.

good luck to you, and happy christmas.

best, artie

Religion provides four main 'benefits' to society, or at least to parts of it.

- Comfort
- Social Organisation
- Justifying the unjustifiable
- A business model

Pretty much anything done on a religious basis fits into one of these categories, including charitable work.

I don’t feel the need of a pedestal, I can see and think quite clearly with both my feet still on the ground.

Steve

quote:

Religion provides four main 'benefits' to society, or at least to parts of it.

- Comfort
- Social Organisation
- Justifying the unjustifiable
- A business model

Pretty much anything done on a religious basis fits into one of these categories, including charitable work.

I don’t feel the need of a pedestal, I can see and think quite clearly with both my feet still on the ground.

Steve

For me, the primary value of religion lies at the personal (I am tempted to say "private") level, rather than the social level. Maybe I've read too much William James, whose "The Varieties of Religious Experience" is a great read, whichever side of the tender/tough divide you happen to fall.

As for comfort, well, yes, I guess that's a common view. Many believers no doubt find it in religion, and maybe that's part of what George is after. But religion can also challenge our basic assumptions about ourselves, our place in the world, and how we relate to others, in a way that's distinctly uncomfortable, but necessary. I think the most impressive individuals I've met, from a number of different faiths, have all expressed this "soul-searching" quality in word and deed. Its antithesis is the smug self-righteousness, and eagerness to find fault in outsiders that, sadly, is all too common.

Dear Droo!

I sent an email about this exactly an hour ago. You hit the nail on the head there. If you let spirituality rather than materialism be your guide in relating to others many things are overturned. Tearing away from materialism, which is ingrained into us more than anything else nowadays, is indeed terrifying, as it means putting the self in s different perpective altogether. I sometimes wonder if this is why some are so keen to search out the weaknesses in the worldly church rather than seek out what is the good it undoubtedly has to offer.

Indeed the implications may seem terrifying, and so are perhaps simply denied.

I also agree that some Church people are horribly smug, and indeed not nearly as kind and good as many out outside any formalised faith, but that is not a denigration the church and the faith that can be strengthened by it as such, but a sad reflection of the ability of some people to pervert something good for their own ends. It was ever thus, but that does not make the good of it bad but the individuals concerned merely charlatans.

Thanks for what I see as a real sharing of an aspect of my view on this.

Thanks from George

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:
....But religion can also challenge our basic assumptions about ourselves, our place in the world, and how we relate to others, ......

But more often it is used for entirely the opposite.

As for finding fault with others, that is an essential part of the us/them world view of many religions.

Steve

Hello Steve

I agree with your first statement. The narrow-mindedness and complacency of many believers saddens me.

I think that your second statement is only partly true, as most religious systems also teach inclusivity - in Christ there is no Jew/gentile, male/female, and all that. I agree that this is lost on many believers (see above), but it's worth saying that it's lost on many non-believers too.

The real question is whether religion, at its best, offers something that nothing else does. I believe this to be the case, and attempted to describe one aspect of that "something" in my previous post.

Yes, religion at its best can help direct the well intention but aimless and disorganised towards achieving some useful goal.

That same ability of religion to direct the aimless and disorganised can be used for entirely detrimental effects however, as evidenced by the rather too many people that have died, or had their cultures destroyed, in the name of one religion or other over the years, this latter achievement somewhat negating the benefit gained from the former.

Steve

quote:

... towards achieving some useful goal

A telling choice of words. Religion is not useful. But it's not useless either. Rather, it offers rest from the ceaseless calculation of utility (broadly construed) that we habitually engage in.

Many believers are neither aimless nor disorganised. I am both, but I've just joined an extreme right wing Christian sect, based in the USA, and hope to become a more useful member of society.

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:
Religion is not useful. …..

On the contrary, religion is an extremely useful tool if you are wishing to gain control of and direct the ignorant and /or gullible masses towards some particular end and has been used for this purpose many times.

quote:

Many believers are neither aimless nor disorganised. I am both, but I've just joined an extreme right wing Christian sect, based in the USA, and hope to become a more useful member of society.

I now find it more difficult to take you seriously but, in case you are, what calibre gun are you going to buy?

Steve

Magnum 45 (Dark Chocolate)

I accept that many religious institutions are in a sorry state, and may post more on that tonight.

Dear George,

Has your decision or proposition to enter the Roman Catholic Church has been in any way influenced from your experiences of Poland?

Kind regards

Romi (Na zdrowie i modlem sie za toba+)