Moving Towards Rome.
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 05 December 2007
Every logical thought leads me towards the view that there is no God. Chistian, Judisch, Islamic ...
Every fibre in me loves those round me, and even on my birthday, I am staggered by the kindness of those I know in daily life.
I was brought up in a profoundly Christian ambiance, though I suspect not one that equated conformity with real faith.
At twenty I had run out of answers for myself and took the logical view held more or less ever since - in other words, that the Universe is a stunning accident, but not a Divine Invention. It has far too much Evil in it for the explanation to be easy, or other than an act of faith.
I have craved not so much the comfort of a faith as an explanation of that comfort which comes in two-fold form - my friends and my music - but the relief from having to work every single detail out for the reason for life! I know why life is good from time to time but not why that reason should exist. Perhaps the great love of God is found in the individual and not the generality.
I am considering the big step of enting the Roman Church - not because it is perfect as there are many oddities, women priests, contraception [world over-population is a big issue for me], or even any notion of eternal salvation, which I cannot sincerely believe in - but the fact that the Christian [Lutheran and C of E] ethos of my upbringing informed me within underlying determination to love people whom I like, am middling about, or even temprarily loathe. That is a gift which I count priceless, and stems from my Christian upbringing. To give and not to receive, but in my experience love is reflected many fold in reality ...
I think the broadness and humanity of the Roman Catholic Church best espouse the value I consider most worthy in humaity, even if mine is no uncritical view of the RC Church. It is a worldly as well as spiritual body, but one which does hold so much that is not only admirable, but worthy of love ...
I am not looking for anyone to follow me in this move towards an old fashioned and possible quite flawed institution, but it is no idle thought, either, on my part.
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by JWM
Mick,
With good wishes to you and all, but you've made it abundantly clear that you haven't got the slightest idea of what I'm talking about.
James
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by Unstoppable
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps
Something is not right
Mick
Easy there old guy.
Me, I'd rather die in an old, abandoned, mine shaft (thinking about yesterday), than be caught dead working at a retail oultlet.
US
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by droodzilla
I agree with Mick's general point. I firmly believe that there has never been a golden age, and refuse to see the present as uniquely bad. I have asked my closest friends to shoot me if I ever start talking about "the good old days".
On Thatcher specifically... maybe (probably) the structural changes to the UK economy had to happen, but Thatcher made a political decision to implement them in a brutal and socially divisive manner. As our leader, it was her job to manage the transition, and to ameliorate its worst effects. She failed badly.
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by JWM
quote:
Originally posted by droodzilla:
...On Thatcher specifically... maybe (probably) the structural changes to the UK economy had to happen, but Thatcher made a political decision to implement them in a brutal and socially divisive manner. As our leader, it was her job to manage the transition, and to ameliorate its worst effects. She failed badly.
Thanks for saying so succinctly what I meant, Droo!
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Steeve:
Apologies, by the way, for steering this thread somewhat off topic! Steeve
Dear Steeve,
No Problem with steering this thread a bit. The best threads often veer off a bit!
I actually think the second part is just that bit more relevant than the first which was almost a mistake! Too personal by half, though entirely sincere.
I actually don't think there was a golden age as such. The difference was that the last time I would see a chairman of Magistrates stop her modest Datsun 1000 to pick a girl walking in the rain [unemployed, and at 17 with three illegitimate babies by different men] walking from the bus stop three miles from out village [and public transport was crap in the '70s as well!] was all those years ago. Somehow the wealthy have become judgemental abd careless. It was possible in those days to find people on a Private Income quite prepared to share a few comforts with those at the other end of the socio-economic scale. Nowadays the anaology to my friend the Magistrate would woosh by in her big BMW without a thought of helping. That is the change. Not that there were not people in grnding poverty!
And yes my Magistrate friend's husband was a Lay Reader, and kept the Church running in our village, both taking the services and playing the pedalled Harmonium for the Hymns! So this is still topical. He explained about the Meek to me as well!
Facsinating how the truths are immutable, but that the humane elements once accepted by the majority and espoused by the Church has been denied in this latest post 1979 social revolution. Yes I would call it a social revolution, where capital has once again taken its position, once maintained when the mines and steel works were owned by people who were often more concerned about the death of a pit pony than a mining man. The pony cost money to replace, but the wages of the miner stopped immediately!
We are returning to that way, and it is not good!
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by Steeve
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
We are returning to that way, and it is not good!
ATB from George
George,
I think the problem is that, under any system, but even more so under a liberal capitalist system, these things do have to be fought for and protected against on an ongoing basis. It is this protection and fight that is now missing IMHO.
All the best
Steeve
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by u5227470736789439
Do you know, I think I might be thinking myself into being a proper socialist!
A Socialist Roman Catholic. That is a turnabout for one broought up under the influence of Lutheranism and the C-of-E, and profoundly capitalistic vision!
The power of questing thought, hey?
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by Steeve
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Do you know, I think I might be thinking myself into being a proper socialist!
All you need to do now George is start a new party so that you can join it
Steeve
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by JWM
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
...A Socialist Roman Catholic. That is a turnabout for one broought up under the influence of Lutheranism and the C-of-E, and profoundly capitalistic vision!...
A Socialist Roman Catholic is far from being an oxymoron, George! In fact a General Election or two ago the Conference of Catholic Bishops for England and Wales issued a paper called 'The Common Good' to guide Catholics as they considered who to vote for. Far from being 'the religious right' as you would find in, say, the USA, I remember that it was said that after reading the paper it was impossible to vote Tory!
But don't be too hard on the CofE (I don't know so much about Lutheranism). There is a long tradition of social action within Anglicanism, particularly the Anglo-Catholic strand (stemming from the Oxford Movement, which called the CofE to rediscover and recover its inherent Catholic roots).
You might find this website to be of some interest (it's not selling anything, so hopefully Adam won't moderate it!)
Anglo-Catholic Socialism.
"You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle, if you do not pity Jesus in the slums. . . It is folly - it is madness - to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children."
- Bishop Frank Weston at the 1923 Anglo-Catholic Congress
James
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear James,
In no way am I denigrating the Church Of England, in pointing out my roots. Not even the Lutheran one, but rather after a twenty five year period of trying to deny the significance of it I think I am far enough from my roots to be able to make a choice. The late Bishop of Hereford who confirmed me as a nineteen year old was a good and wise man [Bishop John, who died in office about 1990], who was deeply loved by many people who only met him at a distance, and whom I know had a very nice familly.
No it is just that the lapse has given the chance of a choice which would never have occured [or occured to me to make] if there had been no lapse.
As for the Oxford Movement, I don't know too much about it, but Cardinal Newman, who wrote the poem, the Dream Of Gerontius which Elgar set in his Oratorio [of that name] was a leading member of it before turning to Rome. He was a brilliant man, a man of huge intelligence. I think that is where the thought first came to me, and that is a very long time ago, when I found out about his life!
I actually am getting to the stage where I get no pleasure at all from denigrating anyone, even if I find myself in profound oposition their aims. Only criminals, and the greedy get less patience from me than average, and even the greedy I am happy to debate with, without rancour.
I am starting to enjoy this Christmas very much, though esentially it will be a quiet one. In spite of all I am happier this year than I have been for years.
To Y'all!
It is time to wish everyone reading this a "Merry Christams, and Happy New Year!"
Thanks for so many lovely, if occasionally diverging, posts on this thread.
Thanks from George
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by JWM
George,
I don't for a moment think you're denegrating anyone!
You are thinking of the late Bishop John Eastaugh, who died in harness.
Good wishes for the seasons reciprocated!
James
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear James,
Yes Bshop John E-. I well remember the last time I saw him. I had no idea he was ill, when he bellowed across the Cathdral Close, "George, come here. I have someone you should meet!" I was walking away, and though we had only met half a dozen times, he recognised me even so. That is what he was like. A big man on the human level, and a the best sort on the spiritual. He is remembered now in permanent form with the placing of a huge metal crown [intended to signify the Crown Of Thorns] suspened at the crossing in the Cathedral [at Hereford], and his influence is still felt today, because his memory lives on in the people who knew him. When he died, the flag on the Tower was at half mast, and I saw it driving home from work. My heart sank [and I had no idea what had happened] - the news of his death came on the Six o'clock News on the BBC.
Months later there was a performance, dedicated to his memory, of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis in the Cathedral, and the black edged book asked that audience receieve the performance in silence. There was a prayer dedicating the performance to him, and the performance emerged from the silence, as if stealing in ... and at the end no one moved for a good four or five minutes. Silence, except for the odd car driving by outside. There was no talking as the audience left, none at all. I have never known such a silence, or such a memorable concert.
Since then most real concerts are apt to make me very thoughtful and describing them is impossible. I never do really. Only that one ...
Thinking back I wonder why I was so keen to escape the Church. Certainly my familly were among the smug snobbish type of Church people, who might most easily be thought of as hypocritical charlatans, whose values were anything but Christian in the Spiritual sense. That repelled me very much, but the underlying vision would never quite leave, so perhaps good may come of it all.
The C of E has a lot going for it.
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2007 by Steeve
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
I actually am getting to the stage where I get no pleasure at all from denigrating anyone, even if I find myself in profound oposition their aims.
Some wise words there George.
I have found that there is usually a reason for every person's action. Trying to understand it, even if one doesn't approve of it or like it, is generally far more helpful and ultimately more personally satisfying.
A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too, and to all Forum members.
Steeve
