symphony concertante
Posted by: stephenjohn on 13 February 2009
Thanks to this forum I have been on a Haydn discovery journey. I have bought his London and his Paris symphonies and the Austro Hungarian Orchestra conducted by Adam Fischer performing his first 20 symphonies [after hearning No 5 on R3]
I am captivated by No 7 Le Midi.
Can anyone recomend similar works?
many thanks
SJ
I am captivated by No 7 Le Midi.
Can anyone recomend similar works?
many thanks
SJ
Posted on: 13 February 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Stevenjohn,
I think you are getting quite close to collecting the whole set of Haydn's symphonies, and you would certainly not be disappointed if you were to complete the whole series.
The are some great ones, some ones that are great fun, and if you had the whole series you would see Haydn's progress as he fashioned what would become the form seen in the Paris set, and taken further in the later symphonies.
I especially commend the London Symphonies [93-104], and there is a budget set from Philips with Colin Davis, which is still among the prime recommendations, as is the set led by Eugen Jochum on DG.
Another priceless [IMO] set is led by Otto Klemperer on EMI, which seems random in the choice of the works performed [because the recordings were in each case a prelude to concert performances - the opposite of the usual practice and something Klemperer always did if possible - prefering to make the recording in the process of extensive rehearsals], but has unique insights and tremendous conviction. It contains 88, 92 [The Oxford], 95, 98, 100 [The Military], 101 [The Clock], 102, and 104 [The London]. This costs about 10 GBP for three CDs, and was re-released in November.
Look out for recordings of the Philosopher, the Trauer, the Farewell, and in them you will find unique and special works. I cannot remember which it is, but there is a marvelous symphony which is almost a multi-French horn Concerto ...
Haydn did also write a marvelous Concerto for Two French Horn, which is as rare as it is very difficult to play, but wonderful music ...
I have played in concerts which contained this piece, but only have a private recording of the performance we gave on one occasion. If it exists on a commercial recording it is a great find.
Really I think if you are enjoying Haydn's music you will not find a single dull work, certainly among what he called symphonies, and his concerti often also are both entertaining and great music, which makes their rarity all the more disappointing to me.
This being Haydn's Bicentenial Year, much will re-appear, or appear newly recorded, so your timing is perfect!
On a slightly different tack, you may note some similarity with what Haydn was pioneering in his works in the Mozart symphomies, which owe a significant debt to the older composer in the form, if not their complely Mozartian and inspired content. The same applies in the case of the string quartets from both men. Haydn pioneered the form, and Mozart wrote many great examples, which follow Haydn's formal structure, while again providing a quite different feel to the music.
If you especially enjoy the late Haydn symphonies then I would also steer you towards some of the less frequently played, less overtly heroic Beethoven symphonies, where the rather direct debt to Haydn's style is clear.
The First really is a wonderful piece that from the first chord almost lifts one rude finger to the older music, whilst being completed wedded to it!
The Second is less irreverent, and slightly larger, and the blissfull slow movement is so clearly prefigured in what Haydn had achieved in works like 88, 92, 98, and 102, for a few examples.
I love the Fourth, and this shows Beethoven really becoming as different to Haydn as Mozart had already been whilst entirely using Haydn's formal model without modification.
The other Beethoven symphony that shows both a formal and spiritual debt to Haydn is the Eighth, which is very often my favourite Beethoven symphony ...
Probably I have spend your whole 2009 record buying budget there, but it may give you some help.
ATB from George
PS: Other Haydn works which are undisputed masterworks are the Piano Trios [Beaux Arts on Philips for these], the Quartets [Tatrai Quartets on Hungaraton], and the Piano Sonatas, which like Mozart show a temendous range from quite simple pieces to very dense late works which never wear their learning at the expense of being difficult to enjoy. I commend the set on Decca made by John McCabe, which also contains the incredible [wonderfully so] F Minor Variations and the version for piano of the Seven Words Last From The Cross, which work comes in several versions, for piano, quartet, orchestra, and I believe though have never heard it also for chorus and orchestra. I love the quartet version [Tatrai], and find the piano version is also completely satisfying, but in a more severe way - perhaps less easy to enjoy at first listen!
Sorry to write such a very long list.
I think you are getting quite close to collecting the whole set of Haydn's symphonies, and you would certainly not be disappointed if you were to complete the whole series.
The are some great ones, some ones that are great fun, and if you had the whole series you would see Haydn's progress as he fashioned what would become the form seen in the Paris set, and taken further in the later symphonies.
I especially commend the London Symphonies [93-104], and there is a budget set from Philips with Colin Davis, which is still among the prime recommendations, as is the set led by Eugen Jochum on DG.
Another priceless [IMO] set is led by Otto Klemperer on EMI, which seems random in the choice of the works performed [because the recordings were in each case a prelude to concert performances - the opposite of the usual practice and something Klemperer always did if possible - prefering to make the recording in the process of extensive rehearsals], but has unique insights and tremendous conviction. It contains 88, 92 [The Oxford], 95, 98, 100 [The Military], 101 [The Clock], 102, and 104 [The London]. This costs about 10 GBP for three CDs, and was re-released in November.
Look out for recordings of the Philosopher, the Trauer, the Farewell, and in them you will find unique and special works. I cannot remember which it is, but there is a marvelous symphony which is almost a multi-French horn Concerto ...
Haydn did also write a marvelous Concerto for Two French Horn, which is as rare as it is very difficult to play, but wonderful music ...
I have played in concerts which contained this piece, but only have a private recording of the performance we gave on one occasion. If it exists on a commercial recording it is a great find.
Really I think if you are enjoying Haydn's music you will not find a single dull work, certainly among what he called symphonies, and his concerti often also are both entertaining and great music, which makes their rarity all the more disappointing to me.
This being Haydn's Bicentenial Year, much will re-appear, or appear newly recorded, so your timing is perfect!
On a slightly different tack, you may note some similarity with what Haydn was pioneering in his works in the Mozart symphomies, which owe a significant debt to the older composer in the form, if not their complely Mozartian and inspired content. The same applies in the case of the string quartets from both men. Haydn pioneered the form, and Mozart wrote many great examples, which follow Haydn's formal structure, while again providing a quite different feel to the music.
If you especially enjoy the late Haydn symphonies then I would also steer you towards some of the less frequently played, less overtly heroic Beethoven symphonies, where the rather direct debt to Haydn's style is clear.
The First really is a wonderful piece that from the first chord almost lifts one rude finger to the older music, whilst being completed wedded to it!
The Second is less irreverent, and slightly larger, and the blissfull slow movement is so clearly prefigured in what Haydn had achieved in works like 88, 92, 98, and 102, for a few examples.
I love the Fourth, and this shows Beethoven really becoming as different to Haydn as Mozart had already been whilst entirely using Haydn's formal model without modification.
The other Beethoven symphony that shows both a formal and spiritual debt to Haydn is the Eighth, which is very often my favourite Beethoven symphony ...
Probably I have spend your whole 2009 record buying budget there, but it may give you some help.
ATB from George
PS: Other Haydn works which are undisputed masterworks are the Piano Trios [Beaux Arts on Philips for these], the Quartets [Tatrai Quartets on Hungaraton], and the Piano Sonatas, which like Mozart show a temendous range from quite simple pieces to very dense late works which never wear their learning at the expense of being difficult to enjoy. I commend the set on Decca made by John McCabe, which also contains the incredible [wonderfully so] F Minor Variations and the version for piano of the Seven Words Last From The Cross, which work comes in several versions, for piano, quartet, orchestra, and I believe though have never heard it also for chorus and orchestra. I love the quartet version [Tatrai], and find the piano version is also completely satisfying, but in a more severe way - perhaps less easy to enjoy at first listen!
Sorry to write such a very long list.
Posted on: 13 February 2009 by stephenjohn
Dear George
many many thanks for your detailed and informative reply. You have given me some great ideas.
I already have the Colin Davies London symphonies and will certainly try out the Beethoven you recommend now, I used to have a set but now only 5, 6, 7, and 9. I also have the McCabe set you recommend and most[?] of Haydn's string quartets perfomed by a combiation of Petersen [Op1] Mosaiques, and Lindseys. But my whole collection has been somewhat unbalanced in that I focused on chamber music, over the past 8 years I sort of attempted to buy at least one recording of all the available string quartets, or Baroque with very few larger works after 1750.
The horn concertos and the multi horn concerto like symphony you recommend seem a must-buy. I think the latter is talked about in the sleeve notes of the Adam Fischer set as being in the next volume of 20. Like you say, I can see this year being a Haydn year for my budget too.
I wondered whether any other early classical composers had borrowed the symphony concertante from the Baroque period? Up until hearing Hayden's 6, 7, and 8, with the exception of some Boccerini, the transition from Baroque to classical had always seemed somewhat abrupt to me.
Thank you again for writing 'such a very long list'
ATB
SJ
many many thanks for your detailed and informative reply. You have given me some great ideas.
I already have the Colin Davies London symphonies and will certainly try out the Beethoven you recommend now, I used to have a set but now only 5, 6, 7, and 9. I also have the McCabe set you recommend and most[?] of Haydn's string quartets perfomed by a combiation of Petersen [Op1] Mosaiques, and Lindseys. But my whole collection has been somewhat unbalanced in that I focused on chamber music, over the past 8 years I sort of attempted to buy at least one recording of all the available string quartets, or Baroque with very few larger works after 1750.
The horn concertos and the multi horn concerto like symphony you recommend seem a must-buy. I think the latter is talked about in the sleeve notes of the Adam Fischer set as being in the next volume of 20. Like you say, I can see this year being a Haydn year for my budget too.
I wondered whether any other early classical composers had borrowed the symphony concertante from the Baroque period? Up until hearing Hayden's 6, 7, and 8, with the exception of some Boccerini, the transition from Baroque to classical had always seemed somewhat abrupt to me.
Thank you again for writing 'such a very long list'
ATB
SJ
Posted on: 14 February 2009 by u5227470736789439
Mozart wrote two Sinfonia Concertantes as far as I know, including the wonderful one for Violin and Viola in E Flat, which is really a normal concerto for two soloists, though called a sinfonia ...
Bach Brandenburg Concertos as well the two sets of Concerti Grossi, Opus 3 and 6, by Handel are the greatest examples of multi-soloist concertos, which form the formal ancestor of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven multi-soloist concertos. Haydn wrote at least one which he described as Sinfonia Concertante [to be found among the Symphony recordings of Adam Fischer in his symphonic integral], but this is nothing other than a concerto for several soloists.
Vivaldi made a wonderful Concerto for Four Violins, which Bach arranged for Four Harpsichords! On balance I prefer Vivaldi's original!
The works of JS Bach's sons include several multi-soloist concertos, including one for harpsichord and piano, but none of them that I have heard is up to the standard of those of the works already mentioned in this particular post, IMO.
I think it is probably a quite awkward form as each soloist has to be treated as equal, and this can lead to such a work as the Triple Concerto by Beethoven, which while enjoyable is certanly long enough for the listener to start to realise its length. If you take any of the Brandenburgs then you soon realise that Bach said far more in far less time!
On the other hand Brahms' Double Concerto manages the trick of concision with great dexterity, and is one of my favourite works by him. Schumann made a Concert Piece for Orchestra and Four Horns which is another oddity though hardly a Sinfonia. Worth finding though.
Another special favourite work of mine is the Second Orchestral Suite by Bach, which is a glorious sort of hybrid, of concerto and Baroque Dance Suite, as the flute is certainly a very crucial solo element in way far more prominent than would be expected if you only knew the other three, with their occasional soloistic passages for trumpets, or oboes and basson - once again a unique work that melts together stylistic and formal models with genius and originality.
Among the more modern Music, Elgar's Introduction and Allegro for String Quartet and String Orchestra was described by Elgar as some modern style of Concerto Grosso, though I think it is stretching the point somewhat, when you consider that the quartet "soloists" are mainly used for textural and sonics contrasts within a steady evolution of ideas, not thematically contrasted between the small and large group as such!
The genius of the concerto, concerto grosso, and sinfinia concertante is really this tension between, and resolution of, the contrast between the soloists, and the larger band of players in the orchestra. Bach again confounds this notion by managing a concerto-like tension and contrast in the Italian Concerto, which is given all on one solo harpsichord! It is a phenomenal work, which is best listened to rather than written about. I imagine a musicologist could spend ages examining and analysing the work, but its genius lies in its effect on the listener or reader of the score! Trying to explain why one solo instrument can seem to simulate a soloist and a larger force playing off each other is beyond me. I am not sure that is actually quite the effect, but the work is still a tour de force! Bach also made another Concerto in D minor that goes on the Organ as soloist, without orchestra, but again based on an existing work by Vivaldi. I love it but only have a recording of it played on two accordians. Much clearer and more exciting than it would be on most large organs, which lack the articulation and clarity to keep things clear. Though what is played is clearly the Bach arrangement, it probably owes more to the spirit of the Vivaldi original than an organ rendition would.
ATB from George
Bach Brandenburg Concertos as well the two sets of Concerti Grossi, Opus 3 and 6, by Handel are the greatest examples of multi-soloist concertos, which form the formal ancestor of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven multi-soloist concertos. Haydn wrote at least one which he described as Sinfonia Concertante [to be found among the Symphony recordings of Adam Fischer in his symphonic integral], but this is nothing other than a concerto for several soloists.
Vivaldi made a wonderful Concerto for Four Violins, which Bach arranged for Four Harpsichords! On balance I prefer Vivaldi's original!
The works of JS Bach's sons include several multi-soloist concertos, including one for harpsichord and piano, but none of them that I have heard is up to the standard of those of the works already mentioned in this particular post, IMO.
I think it is probably a quite awkward form as each soloist has to be treated as equal, and this can lead to such a work as the Triple Concerto by Beethoven, which while enjoyable is certanly long enough for the listener to start to realise its length. If you take any of the Brandenburgs then you soon realise that Bach said far more in far less time!
On the other hand Brahms' Double Concerto manages the trick of concision with great dexterity, and is one of my favourite works by him. Schumann made a Concert Piece for Orchestra and Four Horns which is another oddity though hardly a Sinfonia. Worth finding though.
Another special favourite work of mine is the Second Orchestral Suite by Bach, which is a glorious sort of hybrid, of concerto and Baroque Dance Suite, as the flute is certainly a very crucial solo element in way far more prominent than would be expected if you only knew the other three, with their occasional soloistic passages for trumpets, or oboes and basson - once again a unique work that melts together stylistic and formal models with genius and originality.
Among the more modern Music, Elgar's Introduction and Allegro for String Quartet and String Orchestra was described by Elgar as some modern style of Concerto Grosso, though I think it is stretching the point somewhat, when you consider that the quartet "soloists" are mainly used for textural and sonics contrasts within a steady evolution of ideas, not thematically contrasted between the small and large group as such!
The genius of the concerto, concerto grosso, and sinfinia concertante is really this tension between, and resolution of, the contrast between the soloists, and the larger band of players in the orchestra. Bach again confounds this notion by managing a concerto-like tension and contrast in the Italian Concerto, which is given all on one solo harpsichord! It is a phenomenal work, which is best listened to rather than written about. I imagine a musicologist could spend ages examining and analysing the work, but its genius lies in its effect on the listener or reader of the score! Trying to explain why one solo instrument can seem to simulate a soloist and a larger force playing off each other is beyond me. I am not sure that is actually quite the effect, but the work is still a tour de force! Bach also made another Concerto in D minor that goes on the Organ as soloist, without orchestra, but again based on an existing work by Vivaldi. I love it but only have a recording of it played on two accordians. Much clearer and more exciting than it would be on most large organs, which lack the articulation and clarity to keep things clear. Though what is played is clearly the Bach arrangement, it probably owes more to the spirit of the Vivaldi original than an organ rendition would.
ATB from George
Posted on: 14 February 2009 by stephenjohn
Dear George
many thanks again. Although the Haydn I have been enjoying is different I realise that for me I am constantly hoping to come across an experience like the second Brandenburg. I am going to start with a re-listen to those pieces you ahve suggested that I already own
ATB
SJ
many thanks again. Although the Haydn I have been enjoying is different I realise that for me I am constantly hoping to come across an experience like the second Brandenburg. I am going to start with a re-listen to those pieces you ahve suggested that I already own
ATB
SJ
Posted on: 17 February 2009 by KenM
Haydn seems to have had a thing about horns at one stage of his career, at least going by his Symphony numbers. The "Alleluja", Symphony No 30 has some wonderful writing for the two horns while the appropriately named "Horn Signal" Symphony no 31 employs four of them.
There are excellent versions of these and about ten others in a bargain box, 5 CD set by Nicolas Harnoncourt with Concentus Musicus Wien. It also includes the Sinfonia Concertante (which was where this thread started). I'm not normally an enormous fan of original instruments, but this set gets played a lot. Warner Classics 2564 69650-6 is currently £17.59 from Amazon.
Regards,
Ken
There are excellent versions of these and about ten others in a bargain box, 5 CD set by Nicolas Harnoncourt with Concentus Musicus Wien. It also includes the Sinfonia Concertante (which was where this thread started). I'm not normally an enormous fan of original instruments, but this set gets played a lot. Warner Classics 2564 69650-6 is currently £17.59 from Amazon.
Regards,
Ken
Posted on: 17 February 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ken,
Thanks for the heads up on this.
A must have for later this year for me!
Thanks from George
Thanks for the heads up on this.
A must have for later this year for me!
Thanks from George
Posted on: 17 February 2009 by JamieL
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Mozart wrote two Sinfonia Concertantes as far as I know, including the wonderful one for Violin and Viola in E Flat, which is really a normal concerto for two soloists, though called a sinfonia ...
One recording I can definitely recommend of Mozart's Sinfonia concertante for Violin, Viola and Orchestra in E flat, K.364, is the Deutsche Grammophon 1985 recording by Pinchas Zukerman, Itzhak Perlman, Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, Zubin Mehta.
I am sure there are many other good recordings to choose from, but this one is very enjoyable.
An interesting variation on the above was Michael Nyman's movie score for Peter Greenaway's 'Drowning by Numbers', which took short sequences from the above, and expanded (or repeated them, depending on you view of Nyman) to make thirteen pieces. The end of the movie was edited to fit the Andante the Mozart original. Sadly the recording of that is not on the soundtrack CD.
I hope I am am not digressing from the subject of this thread too much.
Jamie
Posted on: 20 February 2009 by stephenjohn
Thanks Ken and Jamie
I will check out [tr. buy] those recommendations. I've already ordered some of George's.
I have also bought a disc of sinfonie concertante by J C Bach. I like it so much I have now ordered the set of six. Who knows in time I might even learn to spell.
Thanks again and happy listening
SJ
I will check out [tr. buy] those recommendations. I've already ordered some of George's.
I have also bought a disc of sinfonie concertante by J C Bach. I like it so much I have now ordered the set of six. Who knows in time I might even learn to spell.
Thanks again and happy listening
SJ
Posted on: 20 February 2009 by kevj
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Schumann made a Concert Piece for Orchestra and Four Horns which is another oddity though hardly a Sinfonia. Worth finding though.
SJ
The Schumann Konzertstuck is an absolute belter - but filthy to play. (The first horn part gets to eyewatering heights) As a result, it's very rarely heard, which is a bit of a shame
My favourite recording is Berlin Phil with Tennstedt. Horn section is Norbert Hauptmann, Manfred Klier, Christoph Kohler and Gerd Siefert. You'll struggle to hear better horn playing anywhere.
Kevin
Posted on: 21 February 2009 by stephenjohn
Thanks Kevin
I couldn't fintd the recording you suggest, I suspect the usual incompetance on my part. I did order a recording on Naxos that came with concerots for 4 horns by Haydn, Handel, and Telemann
I've tried to post a picture but have never tried before,
best wishes
SJ
I couldn't fintd the recording you suggest, I suspect the usual incompetance on my part. I did order a recording on Naxos that came with concerots for 4 horns by Haydn, Handel, and Telemann
I've tried to post a picture but have never tried before,
best wishes
SJ
Posted on: 21 February 2009 by stephenjohn
...and clearly been unsuccessful. Can someone tell me how it is done?
bw
SJ
bw
SJ
Posted on: 18 March 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by kevj:
The Schumann Konzertstuck is an absolute belter - but filthy to play. (The first horn part gets to eyewatering heights) As a result, it's very rarely heard, which is a bit of a shame
My favourite recording is Berlin Phil with Tennstedt. Horn section is Norbert Hauptmann, Manfred Klier, Christoph Kohler and Gerd Siefert. You'll struggle to hear better horn playing anywhere.
Kevin
Dear Kevin,
Are you the Kevin who used to play horn, post on the Forum, and live in Wales - and sent me Alan Civil's fantastic recording of the Mozart Horn Concertos in the recording for EMI where Otto Klemperer conductors the Philharmonia Orchestra?
ATB from George
Posted on: 18 March 2009 by kevj
Hi George,
Yes it's me - now living in Perth, Western Australia. I've been lurking on here for a while now and, as ever, enjoying your posts immensely.
Hope things are well with you. I think I have your email address somewhare, so perhaps I'll send you a mail at some point?
SJ
I did have a quick scout around and you are quite right - that recording isn't avaialable any more. This is a shame becuase it really is as good as I said...
All the best
Kevin
Yes it's me - now living in Perth, Western Australia. I've been lurking on here for a while now and, as ever, enjoying your posts immensely.
Hope things are well with you. I think I have your email address somewhare, so perhaps I'll send you a mail at some point?
SJ
I did have a quick scout around and you are quite right - that recording isn't avaialable any more. This is a shame becuase it really is as good as I said...
All the best
Kevin
Posted on: 21 March 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kevin,
Here it is as it may not be the same now.
Fredrick1961 [at] hotmail [dot] com
ATB from George
Here it is as it may not be the same now.
Fredrick1961 [at] hotmail [dot] com
ATB from George