Getting the best out of iTunes with the Naim DAC
Posted by: MartinCA on 27 March 2010
I guess many of us have big libraries of Apple Lossless files organised by iTunes. As long as I have an iPod I don't expect that to change. Plus I, for one, don't really want to change because I quite like the convenience of iTunes and the ability to use the Remote App on the iPhone. Also I don't really want to have to re-rip or convert hundreds of CDs all over again in order to use some other transport.
So - my question is - how do we get the best performance from the DAC with iTunes (Apple Lossless with error correction) as the start point?
I have tried the following, using WAV files ripped by EAC on memory sticks as my reference point.
1. USB iPod connection from iPhone using standard iPod connector - better than I expected, but well short of the memory stick.
2. Chord Toslink connection from MacBook - better, but I had hoped for more.
3. Chord Toslink connection from Airport Express (AE) over WLAN from either Macbook or PC. Best option - it improved when I went through iTunes and changed any setting that allowed iTunes to control volume or cross-fade. What was slightly worrying about that is that iTunes must be modifying the digital data before it is transmitted to the AE, rather than sending the raw data.
Option 3 was the best - but falls short of the memory stick.
So what have other people tried? Are there settings on the PC/Mac that make a difference? Does Hiface work with iTunes on the Mac, and if so, does it make a difference? Are there higher quality alternatives to the AE that work with iTunes? Any other (helpful) suggestions?
So - my question is - how do we get the best performance from the DAC with iTunes (Apple Lossless with error correction) as the start point?
I have tried the following, using WAV files ripped by EAC on memory sticks as my reference point.
1. USB iPod connection from iPhone using standard iPod connector - better than I expected, but well short of the memory stick.
2. Chord Toslink connection from MacBook - better, but I had hoped for more.
3. Chord Toslink connection from Airport Express (AE) over WLAN from either Macbook or PC. Best option - it improved when I went through iTunes and changed any setting that allowed iTunes to control volume or cross-fade. What was slightly worrying about that is that iTunes must be modifying the digital data before it is transmitted to the AE, rather than sending the raw data.
Option 3 was the best - but falls short of the memory stick.
So what have other people tried? Are there settings on the PC/Mac that make a difference? Does Hiface work with iTunes on the Mac, and if so, does it make a difference? Are there higher quality alternatives to the AE that work with iTunes? Any other (helpful) suggestions?
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by js
Sonos with WAV or AIFF via coax out. Sonos can stream full wav without needing to go lossless and reads the files directly. No PC player involved in any way. It's good enough that a DC1 is a viable upgrade.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by MartinCA
JS - OK - I was kind of thinking of not moving away from iTunes, but would rather work out how to get the best out of it. But I gather Sonos reads Apple Lossless so I guess it's an option if the best iTunes can do falls short.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by Keith L
Use an iTunes player like Pure Music or Amarra through a HiFace or if you have deep pockets, a Weiss INT 202.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by David B
+1 for Keith's suggestion above. HiFace with Pure Music is so easy to set up and use on a Mac to feed my nDAC/555ps.
I think there lots of us who want to keep the flexibility and power of the iTunes interface and extract the best quality audio from our AIFF libraries. I'm certainly put off the music servers currently available because of the need to use a non-iTunes interface.
I think there lots of us who want to keep the flexibility and power of the iTunes interface and extract the best quality audio from our AIFF libraries. I'm certainly put off the music servers currently available because of the need to use a non-iTunes interface.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by Keith L:
Use an iTunes player like Pure Music or Amarra through a HiFace or if you have deep pockets, a Weiss INT 202.
Trying the demo of Pure Music as we speak. Underwhelmed so for. No discernible difference. I've disabled the dithered volume control. I've left the rate at 44.1 on the Mac output settings and not enabled upsampling as all my stuff is redbook CD rips. Any other set-up tips?
Oh, and it just stalled iTunes. I had to quit Pure Music to get anything to play at all.
(Using the Mac SPDIF to SuperNait DAC. Lossless files)
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by Keith L
Set iTunes for gapless tracks.
Use memory play in PM.
Have "hog" mode set in PM.
Deselect hybrid memory in PM.
Use memory play in PM.
Have "hog" mode set in PM.
Deselect hybrid memory in PM.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by Keith L:
Set iTunes for gapless tracks.
Use memory play in PM.
Have "hog" mode set in PM.
Deselect hybrid memory in PM.
"hog" mode?
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by winkyincanada:quote:Originally posted by Keith L:
Use an iTunes player like Pure Music or Amarra through a HiFace or if you have deep pockets, a Weiss INT 202.
Trying the demo of Pure Music as we speak. Underwhelmed so for. No discernible difference. I've disabled the dithered volume control. I've left the rate at 44.1 on the Mac output settings and not enabled upsampling as all my stuff is redbook CD rips. Any other set-up tips?
Oh, and it just stalled iTunes. I had to quit Pure Music to get anything to play at all.
(Using the Mac SPDIF to SuperNait DAC. Lossless files)
Winky are you using the optical? If so, check the Pure Music notes I think you are pointed to a free plug in. In order for exclusive access (HOG) to be applied, the device (DAC or Interface) must not be selected in sound preferences or Audio MIDI.
The plug in provides the option to select the connection within PM, while leaving the built-in output/input settings fixed in Mac pref and Audio MIDI.
I am using firewire, so in my case Mac/Pref/Sound is set to built in input/output as is Audio MIDI. The firewire is then selected in "Advanced Audio" and HOG mode ticked. At that point you click the bar where indicated to save the changes. PM re-opens picking up the change.
As Keith has indicated, a better connection like the Hi-Face or some other interface would be better.
As an aside, you would get far better results with a separate DAC.
Joe
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by winkyincanada
Yep. Optical. Will look for that plug-in. Thanks everyone.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by Joe Bibb
Winky,
Check out page 19 of the notes.
Check out page 19 of the notes.
quote:To use this feature, the audio device selected in Audio MIDI Setup should be set to a different device than the one used by Pure Music, to allow iTunes to fully access an audio device if necessary. Accordingly, by default, Hog Mode cannot be used for the audio device selected in Audio MIDI Setup. Disabling Strict Device Validation will bypass this check, but doing so is at your own risk (may cause an unexpected quit in iTunes or Pure Music).
If using the Built-In audio with a toslink cable, the free, phantom audio driver called Soundflower (from cycling74.com) can be installed and selected in AMS as a default device.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Winky,
Check out page 19 of the notes.
quote:To use this feature, the audio device selected in Audio MIDI Setup should be set to a different device than the one used by Pure Music, to allow iTunes to fully access an audio device if necessary. Accordingly, by default, Hog Mode cannot be used for the audio device selected in Audio MIDI Setup. Disabling Strict Device Validation will bypass this check, but doing so is at your own risk (may cause an unexpected quit in iTunes or Pure Music).
If using the Built-In audio with a toslink cable, the free, phantom audio driver called Soundflower (from cycling74.com) can be installed and selected in AMS as a default device.
Found it and had a play around. Not much change, if any. Can't see the point of this thing with my current set-up. If I can't pick the difference in an A/B I doubt it is the best use of my cash.
Posted on: 27 March 2010 by Joe Bibb
I'd mail them with your details Winky, there is a setting askew or an option incorrect I suspect. Scotty on here is using it with optical to good effect.
Joe
Joe
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by MartinCA
Winky / Joe
Does PureMusic add much in terms of quality in any case without something like HiFace? I had the impression that the main quality drop-off was in the SPDIF interface in the Mac, which the Hiface improves upon, and the value of PureMusic was more in allowing HiFace to work with iTunes.
But its only an impression - I don't know!
Does PureMusic add much in terms of quality in any case without something like HiFace? I had the impression that the main quality drop-off was in the SPDIF interface in the Mac, which the Hiface improves upon, and the value of PureMusic was more in allowing HiFace to work with iTunes.
But its only an impression - I don't know!
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by MartinCA:
Winky / Joe
Does PureMusic add much in terms of quality in any case without something like HiFace? I had the impression that the main quality drop-off was in the SPDIF interface in the Mac, which the Hiface improves upon, and the value of PureMusic was more in allowing HiFace to work with iTunes.
But its only an impression - I don't know!
Martin, I think it's a very fair impression. I would certainly seek the best output I could get, then add PM. I was already using Firewire before I added PM. Once settled it's easy to compare players.
Joe
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by js
I'd borrow a Sonos bridge and 90 and also a HiFace if possible with PM trial and see what works better. Similar price and the Sonos allows the computer to be anywhere with a great control app for your iphone. Won't need a bridge if the Sonos can be connected between the modem and PC. These are your best 2 options. The Sonos is better with the Naim DAC than with others due to how well the DAC handles SPdif Jitter. Wadia 170i is also amazing through it. Id try to avoid lossless if you want to match the stick though through your AE, it's definitely preferred.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by MartinCA:
Winky / Joe
Does PureMusic add much in terms of quality in any case without something like HiFace? I had the impression that the main quality drop-off was in the SPDIF interface in the Mac, which the Hiface improves upon, and the value of PureMusic was more in allowing HiFace to work with iTunes.
But its only an impression - I don't know!
I coudn't pick a difference with PM, using SPDIF optical to my SuperNait. I'm quite sceptical about this stuff so don't tend to get any sort of placebo effect - perhaps even the opposite. I might have some settings wrong, but I went through it fairly carefully.
I am a little tempted to try the Hiface but would probably rather spend the money on music.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by MartinCA
Hum - js - I'd got the impression from a previous look at websites that the cost of adding Sonos to the mix would be close to £1k - but on rechecking, the combination you suggest is not much more than £300. In the great scheme of expenditure on a Naim system, that's not much, and sounds like its worth giving it a listen.
Not sure about avoiding lossless with the AE- I gathered from Apple forums (surely as reliable a source of information as our own) that airtunes converts music streams to Apple Lossless regardless of previous format and the AE then expands it and feeds it into its SPDIF converter (or its DAC). With that in mind I'd expect Apple Lossless to be the best format to start with if you are feeding an AE. But I've not noticed much difference between WAV and Lossless playing via iTunes over the AE, to be honest.
Not sure about avoiding lossless with the AE- I gathered from Apple forums (surely as reliable a source of information as our own) that airtunes converts music streams to Apple Lossless regardless of previous format and the AE then expands it and feeds it into its SPDIF converter (or its DAC). With that in mind I'd expect Apple Lossless to be the best format to start with if you are feeding an AE. But I've not noticed much difference between WAV and Lossless playing via iTunes over the AE, to be honest.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by MartinCA
quote:[I]would probably rather spend the money on music.
There's a radical thought!!
What can you be thinking of - everyone knows the cart goes before the horse.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by Rocabarraigh
Winky
I've got my supernait back from Naim now, It's a long story but suffice to say it was made in Nov 2009 and didn't sound right. It now sounds lovely after some component changes and i have been trying feeding it with my CDI and also using its DAC with an optichord cable from my Macbook pro, using lossless files from iTunes. I feel that the CDI gives a better sound very definitely but that the Macbook into the Snait DAC isn't too far behind; it makes me feel that if i could provide a better feed to the Snait DAC then it might get up to the level of my CDI or it might even be better and then i might move on from my CDI.
If you read the stuff on the Snait DAC it doesn't seem to reclock unless the feed is very poor, if you are using Pure Music software maybe the limiting step is still the less than perfect feed from the MAC OS. It might be that until you have the Hiface and bypass the jitter of the Macbook OS feed then it might not make any difference. I would love to know if the Hiface into the Snait DAC makes a difference, it might or it might be that the quality of the DAC is just not good enough (in comparison to the NDAC). If it makes a difference i think i will buy an Hiface.
What do you think to my logic?
Patrick
I've got my supernait back from Naim now, It's a long story but suffice to say it was made in Nov 2009 and didn't sound right. It now sounds lovely after some component changes and i have been trying feeding it with my CDI and also using its DAC with an optichord cable from my Macbook pro, using lossless files from iTunes. I feel that the CDI gives a better sound very definitely but that the Macbook into the Snait DAC isn't too far behind; it makes me feel that if i could provide a better feed to the Snait DAC then it might get up to the level of my CDI or it might even be better and then i might move on from my CDI.
If you read the stuff on the Snait DAC it doesn't seem to reclock unless the feed is very poor, if you are using Pure Music software maybe the limiting step is still the less than perfect feed from the MAC OS. It might be that until you have the Hiface and bypass the jitter of the Macbook OS feed then it might not make any difference. I would love to know if the Hiface into the Snait DAC makes a difference, it might or it might be that the quality of the DAC is just not good enough (in comparison to the NDAC). If it makes a difference i think i will buy an Hiface.
What do you think to my logic?
Patrick
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by james n
If you're serious about computer audio then the SN DAC (as good as it is for a DAC stuck in an integrated amp) will be outclassed by the nDac (and quite a few others....)
James
James
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by Rocabarraigh:
Winky
I've got my supernait back from Naim now, It's a long story but suffice to say it was made in Nov 2009 and didn't sound right. It now sounds lovely after some component changes and i have been trying feeding it with my CDI and also using its DAC with an optichord cable from my Macbook pro, using lossless files from iTunes. I feel that the CDI gives a better sound very definitely but that the Macbook into the Snait DAC isn't too far behind; it makes me feel that if i could provide a better feed to the Snait DAC then it might get up to the level of my CDI or it might even be better and then i might move on from my CDI.
If you read the stuff on the Snait DAC it doesn't seem to reclock unless the feed is very poor, if you are using Pure Music software maybe the limiting step is still the less than perfect feed from the MAC OS. It might be that until you have the Hiface and bypass the jitter of the Macbook OS feed then it might not make any difference. I would love to know if the Hiface into the Snait DAC makes a difference, it might or it might be that the quality of the DAC is just not good enough (in comparison to the NDAC). If it makes a difference i think i will buy an Hiface.
What do you think to my logic?
Patrick
I think that your theory is sound. Does the Mini have "audiophile grade" jitter in the SPDIF feed? Well, no. Does it make much difference? That's the question. The HiFace might have lower measurable jitter, but I don't think it matters.
For me, control over the speakers' bass (speed and transients - especially like fast decay - no "ringing") and the even-ness of frequency response are what makes music enjoyable (and I think that we psycho-acoustically adapt pretty well to non-flat frequency response within limits). Chasing down jitter is, to me, like chasing down THD and IMD from inaudible/irrelevant numbers to even lower numbers. Evidence I've seen suggests that distortion induced by moderate levels of jitter are many db down and inaudible. If it was particularly nasty distortion there might be an issue, but this is where the SN and its DAC really shine. The music on my system is just so "musical" and organic sounding. I'm not really chasing greater clarity or soundstage. I don't need to drop distortion levels further. If there is audible distortion due to the SPDIF/DAC/Jitter issue, it doesn't get in the way of my listening.
I'd like some faster speakers (come on s-400s!), but my old 803s just sound so nice with the SN driving them in the new house (It's a great room acoustically). Faster and better controlled bass than I ever imagined they could ever deliver. And deep!
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by james n:
If you're serious about computer audio then the SN DAC (as good as it is for a DAC stuck in an integrated amp) will be outclassed by the nDac (and quite a few others....)
James
Agreed. A decent "add-on" but nothing like as good as a stand alone. You really can't make up for it's lack of transparency no matter what you mate it with source wise.
Joe
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by js
quote:Originally posted by MartinCA:
Hum - js - I'd got the impression from a previous look at websites that the cost of adding Sonos to the mix would be close to £1k - but on rechecking, the combination you suggest is not much more than £300. In the great scheme of expenditure on a Naim system, that's not much, and sounds like its worth giving it a listen.
Not sure about avoiding lossless with the AE- I gathered from Apple forums (surely as reliable a source of information as our own) that airtunes converts music streams to Apple Lossless regardless of previous format and the AE then expands it and feeds it into its SPDIF converter (or its DAC). With that in mind I'd expect Apple Lossless to be the best format to start with if you are feeding an AE. But I've not noticed much difference between WAV and Lossless playing via iTunes over the AE, to be honest.
"I'd try to avoid lossless if you want to match the stick though through your AE, it's definitely preferred."
This is actually a concession to lossess with AE. We're in agreement that lossless is the best way to use AE but I would try to avoid AE and use full bit files instead to get the best from Sonos if you try. Hope that's more clear.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by js
SN DAC is plenty good enough to hear differences. Perhaps it's the TOS or something else causing the issues for winky. You can hear plenty on DACs far below that it a SN. Dramatically improves Sonos for instance. You guys are taking a convenient out. Remember when there when no one could hear the difference difference between narrow and crystal in their setups and I said otherwise. Wasn't the DAC's fault then either. Look at what's going in or overall goodness of the setup.
Posted on: 28 March 2010 by winkyincanada
Not sure what you're saying js? You think Pure Music should make an audible difference with my set-up? I'd love it if that were the case as it would be a very cheap upgrade!
Trying PM again, and sorry - no discernible difference.
Trying PM again, and sorry - no discernible difference.