Best Software to Rip WAV files?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:

But you trying to drag the rest of us into your private Hell of paranoia and suspicion that iTunes MIGHT not sound as good, is not very convincing. Where is the proof?

Joe

Please show me ONE, just ONE, instance where I say EAC rips sound different (other than entire missing songs), or FLAC vs ALAC etc.... Never have I said it once.

I said to JS that it is plausible to me that one could potentially hear a difference. I think JS was the one intimating that if my system was more resolving I might hear it as well.

I would not rule that out as a possibility.

But as I said above, when I took the "Pepsi challenge" years ago, I could not tell a difference between FLAC, ALAC, and WAV (through the same player) nor iTunes, Foobar, or Winamp (with the same codec).

It in entirely possible that mixing codecs and players could result in discernible SQ. I just have never heard it. And I have NEVER once said I did could.

Please actually read what is written and not just blast away like a child.

-patrick

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
Quick question, how do you use the Music Converter to compute the CRC/checksum?

Peter

Just run it - it first asks you for a list of files to convert - give it a couple - then a screen opens up which asks you "Converting to". Select Calculate Audio CRC - Click convert - bobsyeruncle.

The problem is that it doesn't give me the Calculate Audio CRC, only the usual file formats and Test conversion.

Either it's changed or there is a plug-in?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Point us to any CDs where listed tracks are not ripped (I can't prove a negative for you and I care not a jot for so-called hidden tracks if the artist is not proud enough of them to list them).

Joe

That is such CRAP! You dont care about pre-track information? It isnt always an entire song. Sometimes just the lead-in of a few notes, or a sample, some crowd noise etc.... It is on the recording, intended by the artist, and on the master recording, on the vinyl release, and on the CD when you play it on your CDP.

But if its not on the rip, you not only dont care, but are mad at the artist for doing it? Whoa... that is some serious apology making for the iTunes ripping engine.

I think you have been proven wrong, cant come to terms with that, and are now just making excuses.

I gave you specific examples in my above post where pre-track info exists. You want more?

311
Transistor - "Transistor Intro"
A.C.T
Last Epic - hidden orchestral introduction
Adventures in Stereo
Monomania
AFI
Decemberunderground - hidden introduction
Very Proud of Ya - "No Dave Party"
Agoraphobic Nosebleed
Altered States of America "100-song 3" Mini-CD/10" - Features a 1 minute, 45 second song entitled "Wonder Drug Wonderland" when track 1 is "rewound" . Effectively making a 100-song release, although the last track on the album is labeled "99" in all regular cd players.
PCP Torpedo/ANbRX - "Azido Phencyclidine Electrophoresis" on PCP Tornado and "Agoraphonic Nosecandy Mix" on ANbRX, which is a remix done by Submachine Drum.
Alcazar
Alcazarized - "Dance With The DJ" (On the first edition of the album, released in Sweden)
The Aliens
Astronomy For Dogs - Untitled hidden track in the pregap
Apollo Up!
Light the End and Burn it Through - "Roken Is Dodeljik", a re-recording of an instrumental track from their Demonstration Recording EP
Arcturus
La Masquerade Infernale - Untitled hidden track
Armor for Sleep
What to Do When You Are Dead - A hidden suicide note
Art Brut
Bang Bang Rock & Roll - "Subliminal Desire for Adventure"
Die Ärzte
13 - "Lady" in the pregap of "Punk ist..."
Geräusch - "Hände innen" in the pregap of "Als ich den Punk erfand..."
Jazz ist anders Bonus EP - "Nimm es wie ein Mann" in the pregap of "Wir sind die Besten"
As Cities Burn
Hell or High Water - untitled hidden track
Ash
1977 (early copies)

1. "Jack Names the Planets"
2. "Don't Know"

Autechre
EP7 - (untitled track)
Bang Camaro
Bang Camaro (album) - (untitled track)
Beastie Boys
Hello Nasty - "El Rey y Yo" (not on all editions)
Béla Fleck and the Flecktones
Little Worlds - Yankees outfielder Bernie Williams and David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap, stuck in traffic and flipping through different radio stations. The songs they hear are songs from the album played in different styles and on different instruments.
Ben Folds Five
Whatever and Ever Amen - message by Ben Folds about Ben Folds (only on re-masters)
Better Than Ezra
Friction, Baby - (untitled track)
Billy Bauer
Plectrist

1. "Lover Come Back To Me" (incomplete take 1)
2. "Lover Come Back To Me" (incomplete take 2)

Black Moth Super Rainbow
Dandelion Gum - Unknown Track
Blind Melon
Soup - "Hello Goodbye"
Blink-182
Blink-182 - "Stockholm Syndrome Dialog"
Bloc Party
Silent Alarm - "Every Time Is The Last Time"
Blur
Think Tank - "Me, White Noise"
Boo Radleys
Kingsize - "Tranquillo"
Brand New
The Devil and God Are Raging Inside Me - Overlapping phone messages
British Sea Power
Open Season - "How Will I Ever Find My Way Home?" (organ version)
Calexico
Feast Of Wire - (unknown title)
Camouflage
Sensor - "Sensor Intro" - (0:35) - just some noises
Camouflage
Relocated - "Relocated Intro" - (1:21) - based on track "Bitter Taste" with words "I've got a name for you... Relocated"
Carina Round
Slow Motion Addict - "Same Girlfriend"
Cheap Trick
Cheap Trick (a.k.a. "Red Ant") Original 1997 pressing features montage of studio outtakes and rough versions of songs from the album.
Clearlake
Cedars - "Sounds Of Clearlake" - 9 minutes of music/sound clips
Cool Hand Luke
Wake Up O' Sleeper
Course of Empire
Initiation (1994) - "Running Man"
Criteria
En Garde (2003) - song by Team Rigge
The Czars
The Ugly People vs. The Beautiful People - "Top Breed"
Dashboard Confessional
Dusk and Summer

1. "Write It Out"
2. "Vindicated"

Damien Rice
9 - "9 Crimes" (Demo)
Darkane
Demonic Art - Jazzy version of Chaos Vs. Order (US Edition)
David Ford
I Sincerely Apologise For All The Trouble I've Caused - "This Is Not Desire"
David Gray
White Ladder - "I Can't Get Through To Myself"
Diamond Rio
IV - Various earlier hits mixed with sound effects
Dog Fashion Disco
Committed to a Bright Future - "Grease" Cover of the Frankie Avalon song to the Motion Picture
Dream Theater
Octavarium - Several tracks feature additional pregap content before the music of the song starts.
Ed Case
Ed's Guest List - "Mayhem" with guest vocals from Skin
Evanescence
Origin - A humorous outtake from the song "Anywhere"
Fair to Midland
Fables From A Mayfly - "Tibet"
Fall Out Boy
Folie à Deux - "Lullabye"
Farin Urlaub
Am Ende der Sonne - "Noch einmal" in the pregap
Finite Sky
Wash Away This World - "I know you're late, but at least you're on time" + "Find Me" in the pregap
Five Iron Frenzy
All the Hype That Money Can Buy (2000) - The 3-second song "What's Up?"
Flyleaf
Memento Mori (2009) - "Uncle Bobby"
Freddy Jones Band
North Avenue Wake Up Call - "Play Guitar"
Frenzal Rhomb
Shut Your Mouth - "Baby Won't You Hold Me In Your Arm"
The Gathering
Black Light District - "Over You"
Souvenirs - "Telson"
Goldie Lookin Chain
Safe As Fuck - "Bedsit"
Groovechild
House of Life - "The Big Rewind"
Harvey Milk
The Kelly Sessions - "My Broken Heart Will Never Mend" (appears first on the album's track listing, but not described as a hidden track, thus resulting in much subsequent confusion)
Hayden
Skyscraper National Park - "Mingus" (only present on the Canadian version)
Head of Femur
Ringodom or Proctor - Untitled hidden track (glockenspiel and soft voice)
Hilltop Hoods
Left Foot, Right Foot - "Afternoon Group Session"
The Calling - "Stay The Fuck Away Because I Spilt When I'm Talking"
The Hard Road - Untitled hidden track
HK119
HK119 - "11th ID" (a cappella track added to the album as part of a remix competion)
Hoggboy
"Or 8?" - untitled instrumental
Hot Club de Paris
Drop It 'Til It Pops - "Welcome to the Hot Club de Paris" (a capella)
Hoodoo Gurus
Blue Cave
Hybrid
Morning Sci-Fi - "Lights go down Knives come out"
I Choose Noise - "Everything is Brand New"
I Am Kloot
I Am Kloot - Deep Blue Sea
I Monster
Neveroddoreven - Cells
Immortal Technique
The 3rd World - "Apocalypse [Remix] featuring Akir & Pharoahe Monch"
Jack Planck
To Hell With You I'll Make My Own People - "Fuck You"
James Brown
Live At The Apollo Vol. 2 (Deluxe Edition) - Radio DJ (and concert MC) Frankie Crocker talks to the crowd with a comedian for about four minutes before the show begins (not present in all editions)
Jebediah
Of Someday Shambles - "Big Beer Wall"
Jerry Douglas
Glide - Unknown track
Jim Moray
Sweet England - "After The Fire"
Kanye West
Graduation - Goodnight
Kamelot
The Black Halo - A short non-musical intro to the album.
Kenji Itō
SaGa Frontier 1 - Original Soundtrack - Disc 3: "Coon's Theme"
Kid Carpet
"Ideas and Oh Dears" - "Message 1"
Kinobe
"Wide Open" - untitled instrumental
Korn"
"See You On The Other Side" - hidden Twisted Transistor intro
KULT
Poligono Industrial - "Kasta pianistów"
Kylie Minogue
Light Years - "Password"
Lamb
Fear of Fours - "Lullaby" (instrumental)
Best Kept Secrets: The Best of Lamb 1996-2004 - "Wonder" (instrumental version)
Larrikin Love
The Freedom Spark - "It Explodes"
Less Than Jake
Losing Streak - banter spoken by former band mascot "Howie J. Reynolds", an elderly Gainesville local
Lemon Jelly
'64 - '95" - "Don Edoardo '64"
Lewis Black
The Carnegie Hall Performance (disc 1) - (untitled Track)
Lisa Loeb
Cake and Pie - (untitled Track)
Lit
A Place in the Sun - (untitled Track)
Look Down
24/7 Dance Force - Untitled
Luke Haines
Das Capital - "overture"
Lucy Kaplansky
Flesh and Bone - I've Just Seen A Face
Ludo
You're Awful, I Love You - Goodbye Bear
Mae
Singularity - Last Transmission: Part I
Matthew Parmenter
Horror Express - "Making Music"
Maxwell
Embrya - Gestation: Mythos with various voices and watery sound effects
Mayday
Old Blood

1. "Domes/Doma/Dominarum Arcana/Döm"
2. "Rebirthing"

Mayhem
Grand Declaration of War - "Completion in Science of Agony (Part II of II)"
McFly
Room on the Third Floor - "Get Over You"
Melt-Banana
Charlie - "Neat Neat Neat" (Originally by The Damned)
Mew
Half the World is Watching Me - "Ending" (Only included on some versions)
Minuet
"Interpreting Movements That Are Preponderant To Sound" - 9+ minutes of outtakes from the recording session
Miocene
Cellular Memory EP - instrumental jam
MJ Cole
"Sincere" - silence
Moneen
The Red Tree - hidden introduction
Mono Puff
It's Fun to Steal - (untitled track)
Morbid Angel
Entangled in Chaos - Untitled hidden track (static/interference style noises).
Motorpsycho
Blissard - (untitled track)
The Music
The Music (Limited Edition CD) - "New Instrumental"
Ms. Dynamite
A Little Deeper - "Get Up, Stand Up"
Muse
Hullabaloo CD 2 - "What's He Building", a poem read by Tom Waits
The Never
Antarctica - only confirmed on promotional version of CD
No Wings Fins or Fuselage
No Wings Fins or Fuselage - multiple demo tracks.
Nobuo Uematsu
Final Fantasy VII Reunion Tracks - Karaoke version of "One-Winged Angel (Orchestra Version)".
Norma Jean
O' God The Aftermath (Deluxe Edition) - an instrumental jam before the first track starts
Oceansize
Everyone Into Position - "Emp(irical)error"
The Offspring
Americana - "Pretty Fly (Reprise)" (some versions)
Opeth
Ghost Reveries - "Reverie"
Orchestrol Parade
Avec ou sans l' - "Mais c'est pas là!"
Osdorp Posse
Geendagsvlieg - "Sleur"
Ott
Blumenkraft
Pennywise
Unknown Road - "Slowdown"
Protest the Hero
Fortress
Public Enemy
Muse Sick-n-Hour Mess Age (1994) - "Ferocious Soul" (Drum track with Chuck D ranting about the state of Hip-Hop and the impending negative criticism the album is going to receive- which coincidently it did.)
Pulp
"This Is Hardcore" - cymbal
Queens of the Stone Age
Songs for the Deaf - The Real Song For The Deaf
Rammstein
Live Aus Berlin - (Audience cheering)
Reise, Reise - (Fragment of the flight recorder of a Japanese Boeing 747 disaster.)
The Red Shore
Salvaging What's Left
Regular Fries - "War On Plastic Plants" - "War On Plastic Plants"
Relient K
Mmhmm - "Mmhmm"
Forget And Not Slow Down (2009) - Matt Thiessen's father sings a line from "Sahara"
R.E.M.
Murmur - 25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition - bonus disc (vintage radio promo for the album's original 1983 release)
Reckoning - 25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition - bonus disc (vintage radio promo for the album's original 1984 release)
Resin Dogs
Grand Theft Audio -
Sanctifica
Negative B (2002) - 9min 20sec of hidden content (band members talking?)
Sarah Masen
The Dreamlife of Angels (2001) - "Longing Unknown"
Satyricon
Rebel Extravaganza (1999) - "Untitled"
Simon Webbe
Sanctuary (2004) - "Pusherman"
Sister Machine Gun
Burn (1995) - "Strange Days" (A cover of The Doors song)
Skunk Anansie
Stoosh (1996) - (Untitled Track)
Sly & Robbie
Late Night Tales - La Isla Bonita Cover by Sly & Robbie of Madonna track
Jimmy Smith
Root Down (2000) - Band and audience banter before the first song including Jimmy Smith telling the audience to be quiet.
SNFU
FYULABA (1996) - The sound of arguing before the first track between a band and an owner of a night club who accuses the band of trashing the dressing room. It is unclear if the band is actually SNFU or not.
Son of Dork
Welcome to Loserville - "Eddie's Song (choral)" & "Welcome To Loserville (choral)"
Soulwax
Leave the Story Untold (1996) - Untitled
Much Against Everyone's Advice (2000) - Untitled
Any Minute Now (2004) – "I Love Techno"[1]
Most of the Remixes (2007) - Einstürzende Neubauten - Stella Maris (Soulwax Remix)
Staind
Dysfunction - "Excess Baggage" - On some versions of the CD this track is within the pregap, others it starts 16:20 into the last track. This song is also sometimes mistakenly called "Black Rain".
Steven Wilson
Insurgentes (2009) - "The 78"
Super Furry Animals
Guerrilla (1999) - "Citizen's Band"
Out Spaced (1998) - "Spaced Out"
Tait
Empty (2001) - various random recordings
Telepopmusik
"Angel Milk" - spoken intro
Terrorust
Post Mortal Archives - Untitled hidden track (static/interference style noises). Found on original release of 1000 copies.
They Might Be Giants
Factory Showroom - "Token Back to Brooklyn"
tobyMac
Welcome to Diverse City - The "real" intro to the track Burn For You
Total Eclipse
Access Denied - "Cornered"
Tripping Daisy
Time Capsule EP - "Disgruntled Customer"
UNKLE
Psyence Fiction - "Intro (Optional)" (Uncredited intro featuring an audio collage of some of DJ Shadow's and James Lavelle's musical influences). This hidden audio is not on the US pressing, but can be found on UK and Japanese pressings. May be available on other pressings around the world.
Various Artists
Songs in the Key of X (soundtrack from The X-Files)

1. "Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum (Dread the Passage of Jesus, For He Will Not Return)" by Nick Cave and the Dirty Three
2. The X-Files theme by the Dirty Three

Various Artists
Ego Trip's The Big Playback - Interview with KRS-ONE
2 Many DJs
As Heard On Radio Soulwax Pt. 2 - Can't Get You Out Of My Head Remix of Kylie Minogue's song
Vitalic
OK Cowboy (2005) - "One Million Dollar Studio"
The Wannadies
Bagsy Me (1997) - Demo versions of both 'Silent People' and 'Bumble Bee Boy' - one track in left channel and the other in the right.
The Wedding
Polarity (2007) - Outtakes from "Southside"
When
The Lobster Boys (2001) - Untitled Hidden Track
Winds
Reflections of the I - "untitled"
The Wombats
The Wombats Proudly Present: A Guide to Love, Loss & Desperation - Untitled (Talk and Drinking)
Wintersleep
Untitled (2005) - "Spring"
XTC
Coat of Many Cupboards (2002) - Disc 2 - Wanking Man, Disc 3 - The Shaving Brush Boogie


How is that for a list for you???? This is by no means exhaustive.

I have a Wes Montgomery CD (which one escapes me now) where he is talking to the crowd before the song. When ripped in iTunes it is not there, which is unfortunate because it is funny.


So look..... I have given you all of the tools. Bury your head in the damn sand, or thank me for sharing my knowledge. But DONT put words in my mouth or disparage me for wanting all of the songs on the disc contained in my rips.

- Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

It in entirely possible that mixing codecs and players could result in discernible SQ. I just have never heard it. And I have NEVER once said I did could.

Please actually read what is written and not just blast away like a child.

-patrick

Sorry Patrick no need to get sensitive, nobody is 'blasting away' just calmly asking you what sonic evidence you have for your fear that lossless rips using iTunes may be inferior in some way.

You say you haven't heard any. That's my experience too.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by js:

"The HDX into the Beresford was awesome! Only it was about 20% of what the HDXs internal DAC and analog outputs are capable of." Context?

We sent digital out of HDX to the Beresford for fun. Was very nice. Bare HDX without B-Ford was much much finer.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
The problem is that it doesn't give me the Calculate Audio CRC, only the usual file formats and Test conversion.

Either it's changed or there is a plug-in?

You need to get the Calculate Audio CRC codec from the codec central page on the dbpoweramp site.

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central.htm

Richard or other admin....

I wrote a fairly long post and must have said something wrong unintentionally. It said I had included "banned content" or soemthing to that effect.

Maybe you could edit the offending part and post for me?

I didnt have any links, mention of companies not allowed in this Forum or talk of after market fuses.

But i did post a nice list of albums with pre-track songs/song parts at the request of Mr Bibb.

Thanks!
Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:


Sorry Patrick no need to get sensitive, nobody is 'blasting away' just calmly asking you what sonic evidence you have for your fear that lossless rips using iTunes may be inferior in some way.

You say you haven't heard any. That's my experience too.

Joe

I am not getting sensitive, I am only responding in kind to your ad hominem attacks calling me "neurotic", "living in fear", and that i am "dragging the rest of you into my own private hell".
Thats all.... seems like a blast to me.

Once again to all of the detractors.... Explain to me again why XLD or EAC is a bad thing? Please. I can only guess that it is ignorance, convenience, or sour grapes.

I get why you like iTunes. But why the blind allegiance to something proven to be inferior.

If you told me iTunes sounded better to you i would understand. But that doesnt seem to be the case.

It seems as though you are trying to make yourself feel better for ripping hundreds of CDs with iTunes, only to find out there is a much better option available to you. Much like when I realized that 320 MP3 rips were not the be-all-end-all. I re-ripped what I had previously. But i surely didnt come into any Forum claiming that ripping to 320 in iTunes was "The Way To Go".


All of the arguments for using iTunes seem to be revolving around liking it for playback. Some like the tagging, some the library structure/searching, some dig on the Remote app. NONE of which has anything to do with ripping.

Shit.... if iTunes supported FLAC and a library the size of mine, and could use my existing album art, I would use iTunes for playback in a heartbeat. But no way would I entertain it for ripping.

-p

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

George.... as always you hit the nail on the head. I agree with you that it is good enough. But even you would agree if desired you could do more. For most in this forum that is the goal.

I would happily live with iTunes and ALAC rips if my only option, or I didnt have somewhat of a passion for the replay side of things. But if a potentially better (and free) option lies in wait... and someone asks "how should I do this?" and is willing to put in a little more effort than typical... XLD, EAC, dbPoweramp, etc offer a great "proper" rips.

I really still cannot understand going through all of the effort of ripping discs and not doing it as properly as possible, regardless lack of perceived sound quality.

Is iTunes really that much easier? Really? Besides the "easier" argument, let us put that aside, what does iTunes do well? Why is it SO MUCH more desirable than EAC or XLD? I dont get it?

I understand using it as you media player if your library is reasonably sized and you use ALAC, and need to easily load to your iPhone/Pod. But why the need to rip with it when it clearly has major shortcomings and a solution is free, easy, and right at your fingertips?

patrick

Dear Patrick,

I would not accept a lower digital replay standard than that offered by the Naim CD5x. The 5i does not really cut the mustard for me. My first Naim CD player, in 1999 or 2000, was a CD3, which had many good points but was not quite refined enough at length. I was lucky enough to get a CDS2 to replace it ... The first digital replay machine not to sound obviously "digital" to my ear.

I sold that wonderful player three years ago exactly, and fumbled about for something that was able to fill the footprints of this old aristocrat!

A fine Marantz CD player/recorder almost managed the trick with co-ax feeding a Lavry DA10, but the failing transport of the Marantz saw the writing on the wall.

I experimented with EAC for ripping, and Media Monkey for replay on a nice PC running Windows XP and this was a serious step back in functionality [tagging was a disaster, and track joins were frequently badly handled by the replay software], but I had studied the wisdom of JS and others here. I was aware that ASIO was more or less an advance ... etc.

But to revert to the mainstream that a non-PC expert might manage, I loaded iTunes onto my old PC. This produced a more than satisfying result, even via the normal but fine sound card on the PC, so I organised a way to get a half TB drive in the machine and set about a comprehensive transfer of my CDs, including wholesale correction of the flabby titling that came with iTunes. I have soon the arrival of a USB DAC/headphone amp, which might be a sort of upgrade, especially as the amp has a line level analogue input switchable. This brings my lovely old Rotel AL 850 T tuner [LW/MW/VHF] back into play now that I have no formal loudspeaker replay.

This development aside the actual digital replay is splendid. At least as detailed and full of swing as the CD5x CD player. And not a serious loss compared to the old CDS2.

As noted above the iTunes ripping engine brought successful transfers of CDs that failed in EAC, and also had ceased to be playable on any CD player. Four CDs were replaced out of 500+ and some irreplaceable ones rescued.

The issue of the track-join/leading/out issue becomes crucial on live recordings and studio recordings that have track joins in continuous music, and iTunes managed this in ideal fashion. I do not quite understand the issue of offset, but in practice the issue is a non-issue if the result is seamless joins.

The failures in transferring were restricted to CDRs that were made years before from LPs. Disappointing, but understandable. Nothing is perfect in function, and the discs had ceased to be playable on CD players.

The reason for using iTunes is that it was entirely functional, and worked for a non-expert.

Best wishes from George

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

Once again to all of the detractors.... Explain to me again why XLD or EAC is a bad thing? Please. I can only guess that it is ignorance, convenience, or sour grapes.

I get why you like iTunes. But why the blind allegiance to something proven to be inferior.

Patrick,

No grapes of any kind. Have previously mentioned I have Max, XLD and iTunes. As far as I can work out none sound inferior, Max and XLD give you more information which satisfies people who like that.

Meanwhile iTunes is faster and successfully rips the occasional discs that XLD will not. I have no preference on sonic grounds.

Let's not give the impression to people starting out, that iTunes is inferior in terms of them listening to their music, it's not. We seem to agree on that.

Joe

I'll be interseted to see the results from the tests mentioned and if the checksum is repeatable. We now have definitive objective references in both camps. Even though I've used Wavelab in the past, it's also not identical sounding to EAC as DB is. It did give a more satisfactory result to player rippers. Likesmusic, this thread has me reading your posts again. Interesting. I've never needed proof of what I hear but it would be nice to show a difference of some sort for those that do.

The results are here!

Firstly, thanks to likesmusic for help in finding the codec.

You can download the word document that also contains the screen shots, and a couple of additional notes from Here.

So the quick answer is whether you use EAC, iTunes, Winamp, Foobar or dBpoweramp for ripping to .wav you will arrive at exactly the same CRC/Checksum, i.e. a bit perfect copy.

As below:-
03D15709 - Radiohead Nude dBpoweramp No Offset.wav
03D15709 - Radiohead Nude EAC.wav
03D15709 - Radiohead Nude iTunes.wav
03D15709 - Radiohead Nude Winamp.wav
03D15709 - Radiohead Nude Foobar.wav
5BA9FA98 - Radiohead Nude dBpoweramp +6 Offset (default).wav

However, you’ll notice that the last CRC sum is different? This is because dBpoweramp automatically applies a +6 offset which gives a different CRC sum. In effect, dBpoweramp is self-fulfilling its own prophecy in giving the impression it is the only software to rip perfectly, whilst others cannot. This was obvious when I first ripped a dB file and compared to an EAC rip using a HEX Comparison tool or indeed EAC Compare WAVs.

There always going to be exceptions, since CD’s are not perfect whilst hardware error correction can fail. Indeed, the more samples a program can take the better. In this instance, dBpoweramp is a very good product, though not really better than iTunes or EAC whilst they are using their own software error correction. I’ll need to spend more time with Windows Media Player (WMP) since this did not produce perfect copies for some reason, but hey, there are more important things in life.

I hope you found this interesting or even useful,
Regards,
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by js:
I'll be interseted to see the results from the tests mentioned and if the checksum is repeatable. We now have definitive objective references in both camps. Even though I've used Wavelab in the past, it's also not identical sounding to EAC as DB is. It did give a more satisfactory result to player rippers. Likesmusic, this thread has me reading your posts again. Interesting. I've never needed proof of what I hear but it would be nice to show a difference of some sort for those that do.

Thank you js. It important to discriminate between issues in the digital domain and issues in the analogue domain.

OK, so I ripped Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" Capitol 724353 86092, the first track "Don't know Why" with DBPoweramp, WMP and iTunes.

DBPoweramp calculates a CRC checksum of 6BB35291. This agrees with the Accuraterip database. 190 other rips of the same track are on the database all with the same checksum. These rips will have been made with a variety of rippers - EAC, dbPoweramp, XLD etc - on a variety of machines. That's a pretty good consensus.

WMP and iTunes both give a (different) checksum of 4878D8F0.

So here we have a nice conundrum. At least one of these rips must be wrong. If you give a balance sheet to two different accountants and they add it up to a different number at least one accountant is useless. (or very good!)

Just to continue my experiment ..

I downloaded iTunes on another pc I own. I ripped the same cd to WAV.

The checksum was 4A63B7F5 - different to the checksum obtained on my laptop.

So my experience is

dbpoweramp can rip a cd and obtain the same CRC checksum as 190 other rips made by a variety of rippers on a variety of machines from a variety of copies of the cd.

itunes can rip the same cd on different machines and get a different CRC checksum result.

The results of my experiments refute the conjecture that iTunes makes bit perfect rips.

One explanation for my results is that dbPoweramp, EAC, XLD etc. take into account the CD drive offsets, whereas iTunes and WMP do not.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Just to continue my experiment ..

I downloaded iTunes on another pc I own. I ripped the same cd to WAV.

The checksum was 4A63B7F5 - different to the checksum obtained on my laptop.

So my experience is

dbpoweramp can rip a cd and obtain the same CRC checksum as 190 other rips made by a variety of rippers on a variety of machines from a variety of copies of the cd.

itunes can rip the same cd on different machines and get a different CRC checksum result.

The results of my experiments refute the conjecture that iTunes makes bit perfect rips.

One explanation for my results is that dbPoweramp, EAC, XLD etc. take into account the CD drive offsets, whereas iTunes and WMP do not.

Hi likesmusic, good to see your results.

I'll try to follow-up with your particular track when I get some time.

False dichotomy, because you haven't considered whether your PC rip may well be different to your laptop rip due to the native drive offset? Adjust the drive offset and the rips will have the same CRC/Checksum. Further more, it doesn’t matter, since I can produce a very accurate spectrum graph that shows the files audio to be identical.

Peter

PMR - if you repeat your rips on a different drive you will (most likely because of the offsets) get a different result with iTunes but the same result with dbPoweramp.

How can you, or anyone, claim that iTunes is perfect when it produces different results on different machines?

Notice too that there was no indication from your use of WMP that you were using it incorrectly until you used db to check. If you can get it wrong, so will many others.

What HEX comparison tool are you using?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
PMR - if you repeat your rips on a different drive you will (most likely because of the offsets) get a different result with iTunes but the same result with dbPoweramp.

How can you, or anyone, claim that iTunes is perfect when it produces different results on different machines?

Notice too that there was no indication from your use of WMP that you were using it incorrectly until you used db to check. If you can get it wrong, so will many others.

What HEX comparison tool are you using?

HexCmp.

That’s a bit black and white to be honest!

iTunes doesn't produce a different audible result on these machines, just that the checksum takes into account drive offset. It's equivalent to saying that your MP3 file sounds better than mine because I've tagged it incorrectly.

It’s meaningless in terms of audio reproduction!

I certainly agree with you re WMP or any program where you cannot check. The same is true if the DAC cannot check ‘bit perfect’ or ‘jitter’, since it’s only wasted money and time trying to get the best audible results without all the cable snake oil for example.

Do you know how you submit to the database via EAC? To my mind their whole database could be dB given it’s an included obvious feature of dB.

Has anyone got a HDX rip?

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:

Do you know how you submit to the database via EAC? To my mind their whole database could be dB given it’s an included obvious feature of dB.

I don't know how many different software makers contribute to the Accuraterip database. I agree with you that it could be a huge conspiracy, plot or deception but I am not inclined to believe that without any evidence. Have you any? As far as I am concerned it gives me a high degree of confidence that I have ripped accurately.

You didn't even know you might be getting your WMP rips wrong till you checked them.

Getting the drive offset right is important and not at all meaningless, especially as I listen to lots of opera, so a cd for me may have dozens, sometimes hundreds, of 'tracks' on it, which need to play back gaplessly with no changes in timing introduced by missed or added samples.

Edited to add:

I dowloaded Hexcmp to repeat your comparison. Like you, I found similar data slightly offset in the first blocks of the db and iTunes file. I presume this is some kind of header. But if I scroll down a number of blocks, I can't find any similarities whatsoever so would you do the same and see what you get?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:

Do you know how you submit to the database via EAC? To my mind their whole database could be dB given it’s an included obvious feature of dB.

I don't know how many different software makers contribute to the Accuraterip database. I agree with you that it could be a huge conspiracy, plot or deception but I am not inclined to believe that without any evidence. Have you any? As far as I am concerned it gives me a high degree of confidence that I have ripped accurately.

You didn't even know you might be getting your WMP rips wrong till you checked them.

Getting the drive offset right is important and not at all meaningless, especially as I listen to lots of opera, so a cd for me may have dozens, sometimes hundreds, of 'tracks' on it, which need to play back gaplessly with no changes in timing introduced by missed or added samples.

I do understand what you mean, though I'd have to point the finger at hardware and software providers to ensure their products work without needing to check offset, if even available.

I have two Norah Jones - Come away with me "Don't Know Why" (very sad, don’t who how?), one is a Parlophone CRC 930E72DA and the other is Blue Note CRC 19B1B063. In this instance if I add +6 offset to EAC I get 930E72DA as you would expect on the Parlophone disk, likewise with Blue Note.

However, would you expect these disks and yours to sound identical? Well, that’s another test when I can find time for Adobe Audition. You know, different original releases are probably a far bigger concern than iTunes being able to rip perfect or not.

Ok, time for food.

Regards,
Peter

Of the mentioned programs (iTunes, WMP, EAC, dBpoweramp, XLD, etc) they will all rip identically on undamaged discs, one the drive offset is taken into account (EAC, dBpoweramp & XLD all compensate for the offset, so a rip on one drive with a +104 offset will be the same as a rip on a drive with an offset of -30 and the results cross compared). AccurateRip is there to verify the rip is without error by cross-checking against another persons Rips.

Secure ripping is all about identifying errors, and potentially correcting errors (by re-reading), if an error cannot be corrected then it is reported to the user that there is an error (unlike iTunes which will not report the error, rather the drive interpolates to remove the error, with effective silence).

Statistics run on AccurateRip suggest that 2% off all discs ripped have one or more errors, 2% of those discs do not only have scratches, rather scratches and manufacturing defects.

Naim download is perfect! Sadly dBpoweramp is not strickly bit perfect.

As below:
CRC32 Filename

FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Naimlable.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks EAC.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks iTunes.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Winamp.wav
FD7CD754 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks Foobar.wav
4C9EA9D4 Fred Simon Dreamhouse Old Folks dBpoweramp +6 Offset(Default).wav

You decide, but it seems that by adding the +6 offset the conspiracy with dBpoweramp continues. Maybe a nice piece of self-fulfilling prophecy?

All being Naim downloads are not compromised in same way (though their file name is rather similar to iTunes on their download?), it appears there is nothing special with the HDX rip, since EAC, iTunes, Winamp, Foobar are identical.

But this was always the case, right? No one thought the HDX was different?

Peter

Lol! Maybe NAIM ripped the cd on a drive with the same offset as yours! If I were to run EAC, iTUnes etc. on the same track on my pc I would get a different CRC. dbPoweramp will give the same CRC on my pc, your pc, and thousands of others. And not mess with opera, Granted for many people this will not be an issue, though the reassurance of knowing they got a good, verified rip will be. (As opposed to your experience with WMP ;

I believe some people believed that HDX rips are superior in some way, just as there are people on this thread who have put mana tables under their cd drives before ripping and believe they will get a better rip.

It is good to move the discussion of issues in the digital domain to things that are verifiable in that domain.

Anyhow, so far we have established that a number of ripping solutions produce identical results when cd drive offsets are taken into account using the CRC checksum as a measure. An HDX can do no more than equal these. If anyone wants to check whether a mana table affects their rip, we have a methodology.

The next move, for someone with the computer smarts, would be to take a whole replay chain - say iTunes on a Mac, or foobar on a pc - capture the digital data coming out of the Mac or pc and demonstrate with equal objectivity that it is bit identical to what you started with.

Do you know how to do that?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Lol! Maybe NAIM ripped the cd on a drive with the same offset as yours! If I were to run EAC, iTUnes etc. on the same track on my pc I would get a different CRC. dbPoweramp will give the same CRC on my pc, your pc, and thousands of others. And not mess with opera, Granted for many people this will not be an issue, though the reassurance of knowing they got a good, verified rip will be. (As opposed to your experience with WMP ;

I believe some people believed that HDX rips are superior in some way, just as there are people on this thread who have put mana tables under their cd drives before ripping and believe they will get a better rip.

It is good to move the discussion of issues in the digital domain to things that are verifiable in that domain.

Anyhow, so far we have established that a number of ripping solutions produce identical results when cd drive offsets are taken into account using the CRC checksum as a measure. An HDX can do no more than equal these.

The next move, for someone with the computer smarts, would be to take a whole replay chain - say iTunes on a Mac, or foobar on a pc - capture the digital data coming out of the Mac or pc and demonstrate with equal objectivity that it is bit identical to what you started with.

Do you know how to do that?

Yes, but it will be easier the moment the Weiss DAC202 is available. It has a file to play for checking 'bit perfect' or not. Otherwise, you play an HDCD file via MAC/PC and check that the HD light is illuminated on the supporting DAC.

Many other ways, but none quite so simple.

It’s easier to listen in most instances, sadly proving that MP3 is good enough for the average person, given the original recording is normally ruined with compression in any case.

If the offset wasn't set in EAC then this may be the issue. It would then probably match DB and HDX. Without the offset correction EAC is just like a player's ripper but with higher security and c2 options.

That's correct if you read all the threads. However, it would mean that the Naimlabel downloads are different from the HDX rips. That wouldn't make sense for Naim or their users.