My new 250 just went KABOOM!

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

I can honestly say that in over 15 years of Naim ownership, I have never had a single failure of any kind, with any component......

Get well soon!

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

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I thought it was the Joseph,

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Er; can you explain please?

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Originally posted by J.N.:
Er; can you explain please?

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Sure. Initially, I thought my speaker - a Joseph Audio RM 22si Mk II - had bit the dust. Alas, it was the 250.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Still, could be the Joseph. Perhaps it killed the amp? Just 'cause they still work doesn't mean they didn't do it. The perfect crime?

of course, it could be the amp. but not the performance.

Wouldn't one expect a replacement amp on loan during repairs? Or as a permanent replacement? Presuming the dealer has another in stock of course.

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:
My new-style NAP 250 that I've been enjoying since May just went KABOOM! More specifically, I was sitting there, listening to Ivo Pogorelich play Chopin's B-minor scherzo at a moderately loud volume, then, then, I heard a really, really loud clank and smelled something burning. I thought it was the Joseph, but when I hurriedly plugged my MA in and - nope, 'twas the 250. All is unplugged and ready to be taken back to the stereo shop tomorrow.

Needless to say, I'm very displeased at spending over $4000 on an amp to have it blow up during a solo piano piece played at a volume lower than I usually listen at. If my speaker is damaged, I'll be really pissed, and I will never buy Naim again. I certainly hope that the folks in Chicago can fix this quickly so I won't have to listen to too many of my Christmas operas through my Nait.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_

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Very interesting... It is known that the new 250 circuitry is different from the olive version and the goal is to allow the amp to be driven harder (using better transistors). If the amp get hot enough (around 70 degree C) it should shut-off automatically. When your NAP250 blown off, did you touch the amp to see how hot it was? If it was not, then Naim Audio designer should take a look at it.

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What a stupid f........n statement

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Hey, slim, blow it out your ass.

As to Tuan's question about temperature, well, the 250 ran cooler driving the Josephs than it did my Vienna Acoustics. Except for yesterday after the incident, when the 250 was HOT to the touch.

To make sure that everything is okay, I dropped my Nait 5 in where the 250 was and used just the amp section. Everything worked. I'm not sure about the potentially damaged speaker, though. The right channel seems lower in volume on some music. Is it the speaker? Could it be the 202? Perhaps the FlatCap2? (The last seems unlikely as I've had it for three years without problems.)

Today I am going to do some testing to see what the situation is. I'm going to compare the Nait 5 pre-amp section to the 202, and I'm going to swap speaker positions. If the speaker is toast, I'm getting a new one. And who knows, there may be some used new Naim gear available in the Northwest as a result.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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Hey, slim, blow it out your ass.

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Now now Todd; you should not be telling Slim what to do with his donkey.

But seriously though; I'm with him - it's a bit daft to go berating Naim in this fashion, when the 250 failure could be down to all sorts of reasons.

Naim kit has superb reputation for reliability, but if the 250 is faulty; Naim will fix it pronto for free.

It ain't a perfect world.

Don't lose the faith.

Ah, such brand loyalty sure is heart-warming, isn't it?

I've been using Naim for almost four years so far without any problems, and so I've been satisfied. But when one of Naim's core products goes bust on a solo piano recording while possibly also taking an expensive speaker with it, I think it only appropriate to bring out that point, and to write of the potential consequences. When it comes to consumer products - especially very expensive consumer products - failure of this sort is unacceptable. Naim is not the only game in town.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Todd,

I understand your anger, and I understand venting. And you have my deep sympathy of the interruption in yourmusic.

Once the 250 is fixed, I hope you consider the situation without emotion. We live in a world of probability.

Even the best breaks down sometimes. I was about to enter a bar to celebrate a data center move a few years ago when we were called back to work because a set of capacitors blew in an entirely unforseen way and $100 million of computers crashed.

If your 250 is the one failure in thousands of hours of operation within the expected MTBF, you should probably stay with Naim. If the MTBF of the new 250 is lower than expected, it may be time to shop.

In any case, I'm really glad you have a backup system. Someone like you needs to keep getting that music fix.

BTW, if you leave the Naim hardware fold, I hope you continue posting on the music forum. If the 250 failure deprives us of your thoughts on music, I'll be pissed at Naim, too.

Regards.

Phil

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In any case, I'm really glad you have a backup system. Someone like you needs to keep getting that music fix.

BTW, if you leave the Naim hardware fold, I hope you continue posting on the music forum. If the 250 failure deprives us of your thoughts on music, I'll be pissed at Naim, too.

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I can't even imagine life with only one stereo. Fortunately, I also have an Arcam Alpha 9 that's now doing double duty as my bedroom / front room amp. Whew. As to music, well, I just spun Anderszewski's recording of Bach's first Partita and Ned Rorem's First Symphony to soothe my frayed nerves. More information will be forthcoming on these recordings. As to product loyalty, I'm the first to admit that I am merciless. And rightly so. Ford and Sony are both on my never-buy-again list, and I hope Naim does not end up there.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:
As to product loyalty, I'm the first to admit that I am merciless. And rightly so. Ford and Sony are both on my never-buy-again list, and I hope Naim does not end up there.

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Todd,

Everytime an expensive piece of kit breaks down it is disconcerting.

No matter how much something costs, everything breaks down. What matters to me is how a dealer or manufacturer handles the situation.

I had a fair share of digital gear failure including 20k$ kps25s which stopped reading a disc after 3 mo. of purchase and had to be replaced twice! But, the manufactuere was responsive, professional and showed a great deal of concern which goes a long way.

I hope NANA and your dealer will do right by you.

John, I've had my 202/250 combination since May. I upgraded my speakers to the Josephs in October.

I just finished doing over an hour of testing, and, fortunately, the speaker seems fine. I compared each speaker one at a time using the same channel output, then switching the outputs back and forth at each speaker, and then I compared the Nait 5 pre-amp section with the 202, to make sure that there was nothing wrong with the 202. I used both music and low-frequency test signals. All turned out apparently fine.

The left speaker (the unaffected speaker) has slightly (and I mean slightly) more low frequency output, regardless of channel, but I chalk that up to the fact that the left speaker is positioned next to the outside wall, which is more heavily braced and covered with plywood and siding, whereas the right speaker is next to a drywall-to-drywall wall. (The difference is only audible at the 50 Hz signal.) I've not actually moved the 80-lb speakers around yet as my neck is injured and I’m in no mood to do the MDF shuffle. I may take the speakers in for a diagnostic test after the holidays.

I've already spoken with my Naim dealer and she is anxious to fix the problem. She's always been great so I have faith that she'll do her best. (I've dropped $15000 at her store in the last four years. I assume I would rate as a good customer.) Alas, I will only be able to get a 150 as a loner as she only has a demo 250. (She keeps no high-end gear in stock.)

On the bright side, I got to do a demo between the Nait and 202 and the 202 is clearly better. Looks like I won’t have to switch over to Spectral gear, after all.

Slim, I trust you’ve taken my advice, and if not, please do so post-haste.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
Twice? That must have been really annoying, especially for a $20k player!

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I was a butt of a joke for oh.. for a long time. ' hey, how come my sony disman is working and your 20K player is dead?'
Many assume hi-end gear is more reliable. NOT!

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CD players are indeed normally the ones that go, unsurprisingly; in the past I've had both a Sony and Marantz die, and when I first received my CDi a couple of years ago that was dead too!

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It would be two page long (single-single spaced entry) if i list all the gear I had over the years to replace or fix for me.

Incidentaly, my CDX2 has been already replaced. ( yep. had a transport problem with it )

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Originally posted by mad max:
Would not be happy if I was the owner of an earlier cdx2.

ALSO, look for a cd5 replacement in march or april, that is said to be a cdx2 killer!

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It seems to be a fairly normal practice for smaller hi-end producers to keep tinkering the products after the release unannounced. It is annoying but, i guess, that's par for the course.

A 'bare' CDX2 has a lot to worry, since without an outboard power supply, it's perfoming at 50% capacity.

[This message was edited by kuma on SATURDAY 20 December 2003 at 22:22.]

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:

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What a stupid f........n statement

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Hey, slim, blow it out your ass.

As to Tuan's question about temperature, well, the 250 ran _cooler_ driving the Josephs than it did my Vienna Acoustics. Except for yesterday _after_ the incident, when the 250 was HOT to the touch.

To make sure that everything is okay, I dropped my Nait 5 in where the 250 was and used just the amp section. Everything worked. I'm not sure about the potentially damaged speaker, though. The right channel seems lower in volume on some music. Is it the speaker? Could it be the 202? Perhaps the FlatCap2? (The last seems unlikely as I've had it for three years without problems.)

Today I am going to do some testing to see what the situation is. I'm going to compare the Nait 5 pre-amp section to the 202, and I'm going to swap speaker positions. If the speaker is toast, I'm getting a new one. And who knows, there may be some used new Naim gear available in the Northwest as a result.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_

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Todd

From your information, it seems that Naim Audio set the limit for the new NAP250 a bit to high. If the amp was HOT when it blown up as described, the electronics failed before the activation of the thermal trip. It should be noted that the NAP250 does not have the cooling fan (by design), it cannot be driven the same way than units with fans. For you Todd, I think the solution may be the 145V mono blocks. Your NAP250 WILL always be hot when you play the music and the heat tolerance of the NAP250 is poor (since it has no cooling fan), this issue may come again in the future. This indicates that you need more power than the NAP250 can provide.

Tuan, I think you misunderstood what I initially wrote. Prior to the incident, the amp ran noticeably cooler with the Josephs than with the Vienna Acoustics. I can recall only two times when the case got warmer than room temperature with the Josephs - both times a Bruckner symphony played at near-deafening levels was the culprit. The amp was hot only after it went KABOOM, indicating that there was a failure of some sort. Cooling and power levels are not an issue. It's now back at the dealer ready for it's journey to the windy city and I get to listen to a 150 for a couple of weeks.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

I'll admit I've only skimmed this thread so may have missed something but..

Am I the only person apart from Todd who thinks that its fu*king ridiculous (and rude) that the dealer doesn't just replace this thing with a new one?

Sending it away to be fixed is surely piss-taking

redeye, while I would certainly hope in such circumstances to be offered a replacement, I would not expect it. And I fail to see how it can be a matter of manners whether Naim chooses to repair or replace Todd's blown 250.

More to the point I certainly would not come to the forum to whinge and threaten never to buy Naim again before they have had a chance to fix the problem. Not only is such behaviour extremely boorish but it is counter productive: who would want to go out of their way for a customer who behaves like that?

Just read the original post. "250 that I've been enjoying since May" puts a different spin on it.
In those circs I wouldn't expect a replacement amp. For some reason (hangover?) I thought the man had used the amp for a couple of weeks. Now I've put my glasses on I'm happy to back off from my original comments.

FWIW Todd...a friend sold Naim kit for 2 years at a retailer here. In all that time the only 'dud' he had was a Nait 2 which caught fire when it was turned on.
Apart from that..zip.

You've been unlucky but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Merry Xmas
red

Shame about it blowing up, but it is still under warranty so it will get fixed. I bought a (expensive) Classe power amp and it blew up the first time I switched it on!!

This is where you should perhaps look to your dealer, rather than vent against naim per se. A good dealer will lend you something to get you by until "normal service is resumed."

At least you have a back-up, lucky you, so you won't be totally without some decent sounds.

now back to Hogwood's Messiah...
tim

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Originally posted by JeremyD:
More to the point I certainly would not come to the forum to whinge and threaten never to buy Naim again before they have had a chance to fix the problem. Not only is such behaviour extremely boorish but it is counter productive: who would want to go out of their way for a customer who behaves like that?

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I'll tell you who, JeremyD: Any customer-oriented company who wants repeat business and good word of mouth. I'm completely satisfied with my dealer, but not with Naim. All their copy about quality and blah, blah, and then this. Give me a break. As a customer it is my right to threaten and in fact never buy a product again. Perhaps in well-mannered England you find it more productive to kiss up to manufacturers?


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:
Tuan, I think you misunderstood what I initially wrote. Prior to the incident, the amp ran noticeably _cooler_ with the Josephs than with the Vienna Acoustics. I can recall only two times when the case got warmer than room temperature with the Josephs - both times a Bruckner symphony played at near-deafening levels was the culprit. The amp was hot only _after_ it went KABOOM, indicating that there was a failure of some sort. Cooling and power levels are not an issue. It's now back at the dealer ready for it's journey to the windy city and I get to listen to a 150 for a couple of weeks.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_

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OK Todd. Now I got the picture. This is a case of component failure, well things do happen. You are using it for number of months so the model is fully broken in and passes the "acid test" as we used to call it (electronics that have to pass the operation envelope). This is the reliability issue of component used to built the amp. Naim Audio may want this amp back to their lab for major investigation (and send the replacement for you ASAP).

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Originally posted by mad max:
By the way, people who knock bryston, really have a problem with their hearing!

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OR,
they have not lived with one.

For those of you who didn't know (i.e. everyone but me), Jonathan Hales strapped a succulent new 250 into his rig yesterday. In NZ we have a try-before-you-buy scheme wot Christopher Murphenstein (our much loved local Naim dealer) has pioneered (currently under investigation by the commerce commission) that he calls "babysitting". No doubt Jono will fill you in on the goodness of the new amp in terms of its ability to make music so I won't steal his thunder with hi-fi babble. The important thing in light of these developments is that one of the uppermost items on Jonathans "must haves" list for the new amplifier is the following (and I quote) :

5) Must have the ability to not explode.

Oh dear ..