Understanding 20th Century Music

Had a good listen to Petroushka this evening. It is interesting to reflect on the changes in the orchestra from Beethoven to Stravinsky, both in variety and in sheer skill.

Whereas Beethoven had hundreds of colors in his tonal palette (i.e. orchestration), Stravinsky makes use of thousands.

The game has changed, and a different instrument is being played upon. With such a palette, orchestration is equal in musical importance to harmony and rhythm.

That facet of the music has been redefined by Stravinsky.

It's like moving from black and white to color :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The game has changed, and a different instrument is being played upon. With such a palette, orchestration is equal in musical importance to harmony and rhythm.

That facet of the music has been redefined by Stravinsky.

It's like moving from black and white to color :-)

To be sure, Stravinsky had a lot to offer in this area, but Ravel redefined orchestration right along side him.

All best,
Fred

Ravel is certainly a great orchestrator, but he never displayed the diversity of style that is fundamental to Stravinsky.

Just think of Firebird, Pulcinella and Ebony Concerto.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Ravel is certainly a great orchestrator, but he never displayed the diversity of style that is fundamental to Stravinsky.

Just think of Firebird, Pulcinella and Ebony Concerto.

Hi Mike,

I'm not particularly interested in a general duke-out between Stravinsky and Ravel, but that wasn't the issue ... you had written "With such a palette, orchestration is equal in musical importance to harmony and rhythm." And this is true of Ravel's work no less than any other composer ... he was more than just a "great orchestrator," he was one of the primary innovators in orchestration of the early 20th century.

As far as breadth of stylistic diversity, maybe, maybe not ... but there is certainly substantial stylistic range if one considers, for instance, the String Quartet, the lushly cinematic Daphnis et Chloé, the jazz-inflected 2nd piano concerto, Le Tombeau de Couperin, and the austere Sonata for violin and piano. Not to mention Boléro, a masterwork of orchestration if there ever was one.

All best,
Fred

A lot of Ravel's music doesn't wear well on repeated listening. On the other hand, I find much of Stravinsky's music stays fresh over repeated listening sessions.

That may just be personal preference, but I don't think so. I think Stravinsky is just that much better. By better, I mean it's packed with more musical information per measure, so has more to offer on closer inspection.

Still, I have my Ravel nights. But they are getting further and further apart.

I haven't listened to Bolero in quite some time. I find it lacking in content.

No, believe me ... it's just personal preference. Ravel's music has more than plenty to offer upon closer inspection, no less than that of Stravinsky.

Some of the more overtly impressionistic/cinematic works may not hold up quite as well in some respects ... I'm thinking of certain aspects of Daphnis et Chloé, especially the use of voices ... but this is due in large part to the pervasive emulation of Ravel in decades upon decades' worth of scores to literally thousands of movie soundtracks.

But works like his timeless string quartet, or La Valse, a technicolor hallucination of a Viennese waltz, or the slow movement of the 2nd piano concerto, or any of the more austere chamber works such as the A minor piano trio, the violin and cello sonata, and the violin and piano sonata, all hold up as well as anything.

Boléro is a singular case ... you find it "lacking in content," Ravel himself half-jokingly said "it has no music in it," but more seriously said his intent was to explore continually shifting orchestral development devoid of motivic development. In this the piece is a sterling success, with its ever-changing kaleidoscopic palette of orchestral colors, stacking layer upon layer of harmonies parallel to the melody, harmonies which based on the overtone series. The sinuous and eminently memorable melody is obsessively repeated, foreshadowing the minimalist movement of the latter 20th century, and also calling to mind the hypnotic trances of the Sufi whirling dervishes in its Mediterranean/Middle Eastern flavor. The relentless steady crescendo peaks in a sudden and brilliantly conceived key change, giving the piece its final glorious lift.

Sometimes, the simplest of ideas can be the most effective, for although the composer and others may have found it lacking in rigorous compositional substance, it is clearly Ravel's most famous piece because if it does nothing else, it communicates ... it connects on a deeply emotional level with listeners of all stripes, including this one.

All best,
Fred

The second piano concerto and LaValse are two of my favorites.

Daphnis and Chloe and Bolero are two of the works that feel to me like they go nowhere.

I'll look for the string quartet and some of the other chamber works.

In Daphnis and Chloe, which I've probably heard 20+ times, I feel that there can be no more suprises. Petrochuka, on the other hand, is still providing new insights after dozens of listens.

On listening to Stravinsky

For me the cleverly composed complexity builds tension in an involving way. I would say the cinema owes Stravinsky a great debt. To me a lot of dramatic film scoring has the imprint of Stravinsky below the surface. I wonder how Bernestein and Schifrin, for example, would have composed without the lesson in how to create drama that Stravinsky gave them.

On Ravel

Well I love the musical flavor. Anything with a Spanish feel even if French in origin has me by the second bar. For example I have a recording by the Minnesota Orchestra containing La Valse, Alborada del Gracoso, Menuet Antique and Rapsodie espagnole which is one of my favourites.

but...as agreed it is individual taste.

regards
geoff

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

Daphnis and Chloe and Bolero are two of the works that feel to me like they go nowhere.

As Ravel himself said, there is no motivic development in Boléro, but instead there is constant development in the orchestration, a layering of harmonies based on the overtone series, all culminating in a sudden key change ... that is where it is going.

quote:

I'll look for the string quartet and some of the other chamber works.

Please don't tell me you've never heard the string quartet! It could suffice for Ravel's greatest work if forced to pick one ... certainly among his very best work, and one of the greatest of all string quartets.

It's most often paired with that other great fin de siècle French string quartet by Debussy ... a luminous duo of complimentary masterworks. If you can find a used copy, I strongly recommend the recording by the Ysaÿe Quartet.

The soundtrack for the film Un Coeur en Hiver contains wonderful performances of the Piano Trio, the Sonata for violin and piano, the Sonata for violin and cello, and a Berceuse for violin and piano ... well worth seeking out. Beautiful and sometimes stringent music which will not at all bring to mind the composer of Daphnis and Chloé.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

As Ravel himself said, there is no motivic development in Boléro, but instead there is constant development in the orchestration, a layering of harmonies based on the overtone series, all culminating in a sudden key change ... that is where it is going.

I know where the bus is going, I just have no interest in the destination :-)

But now you really have stoked my interest in the chamber works. Off to Amazon to see what I can find.

quote:

I know where the bus is going, I just have no interest in the destination :-)

So much for "Understanding 20th Century Music"

Fred, excellent points you have made here! I'd second your suggestions on the Ravel / Debussy. I love that movie "Un Coeur en Hiver" (I'm attracted to any movie with great music!). Watching a movie with this music in it is a good way to hook people's interest as it more likely will lead to a personal connection with it.

Last point I'd like to make is one that concerns generalizations. Personally, when someone tells me they like (or do not like) Ravel or Schumann or Beethoven etc. I often feel I need to ask more particularly what Ravel or Schumann or Beethoven etc. they are referring to. I personally find the worlds of orchestral and chamber and solo and vocal etc. vastly different from every perspective. Sometimes I even wonder if this can be the same composer.

So when someone says they do not care for Ravel I wonder if they have actually heard all aspects of Ravel. I rarely listen to strictly orchestral music myself rather I spend most of my time with chamber and solo music (which is probably the opposite of what the general population who listen to "classical" might do.)

So Mike - rent or buy the movie. If the music intrigues you keep going digging

Regards,
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:

quote:

I know where the bus is going, I just have no interest in the destination :-)

So much for "Understanding 20th Century Music"

Regards,
Doug

I have listened to at least a dozen different versions of Bolero and heard it performed live four times. It just doesn't do it for me. I don't feel compelled to give it more of my time. If a world class swimmer decided to swim the English Channel with his legs bound together, I would consider that feat to be comparable to Bolero as a composition. It's a sleight of hand, nothing more.

It sucks when you just don't feel the love :-)

Every time that happens, I consider it a personal failing, but I move on.

I ordered the Ravel String Quartet by the Emerson Quartet. If that goes well, I'll get more.

If I can rent the movie locally, we'll see it tonight, otherwise back to Amazon.

And no one said they didn't care for Ravel. It's more along the lines of "the love is fading".

Stravinsky is, in my opinion, on a par with Bach and Beethoven. No other 20th century composer strikes me that way.

I threw some Brahms on the fire today. The Academic Festival Overture and the First Symphony by Abbado and Berlin on DGG.

Very satisfying; even invigorating. Very 20th century - no trace of Beethoven.

Brahms is his own man ...

When I stated this thread, I never dreamed we'd end up with just Stravinsky, Ravel and Brahms ...

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
When I stated this thread, I never dreamed we'd end up with just Stravinsky, Ravel and Brahms ...

....suggest some more then

Is there a defender for Schoenberg out there?

Not suprising. While Schoenberg's music has form and is written with rigor, it is absloutely lacking in beauty (the atonal works that is). His opera Moses and Arron is a good example of this.

OK here's a couple...

Khachaturian and Prokovfiev. Any thoughts.

Right now they are really just names to me apart from the obvious snippets that get played. Any recommendations on works to get into?

Geoff

Prokofiev is one of my loves, though he is a bit uneven quality wise.

I think three of the very best are his Fifth Symphony (I recommend Levine/Chicago on DGG) and his violin sonatas, especially the first violin sonata (I recommend Shlomo Mintz on DGG), and finally the violin concertos, again especially the first (I recommend Shlomo Mintz/Abaddo/Chicago on DGG).

If you've never heard him, Mintz has the most exquisite intonation of any violinist in my collection. This illuminates his Prokofiev, who explores the outermost reaches of the instrument's range, and is quite fond of wide open voicing, where any flaw in intonation can utterly ruin a performance. And Mintz' phrasing milks every last drop of beauty from the melodies.

Some mad clock drives the rhythm forward in the fifth symphony; the sound is quite unique. The violin works possess a beauty unsurpassed by any other composer.

Maurizio Pollini did a disk for DGG of Prokofiev's Piano Sonata No. 7 and Stravinsky's Petroushka that is stunning. I believe it is available on CD. The mad clock of the 5th symphony makes an appearance here in the Prokofiev sonata.

These are among the greatest works of the 20th century, IMO.

I've never developed any affection for Khachaturian, so have no opinion in that regard.

Mike, thanks for the input on Prokofiev. I will break out the credit card

Geoff

Taking a rest break after my Bach, I had some thoughts on Stravinsky and on Mahler.

The great Stravinsky ballets always have the melody carried in the winds. That is quite unusual. In previous posts I have commented on articulation, and the role it plays in shaping the melody. Strings and winds articulate quite differently. The string player uses his hand, and the wind player uses his mouth.

It's like the difference between a hand shake and a french kiss :-)

String players will beg to differ ...

And about Mahler. In Mahler you will find terrifying beauty, tranquil repose, public joy, the Beer Garden and a fair amount of meandering.

You have to wait for your car to roll by.

If you want to understand all of his symphonies without having to buy them all, buy a copy of his first symphony. There are many good ones. Of seven renditions in my collection, I prefer Bernstein/Concertgebouw on DGG at the moment.

Listen to it ten times. You will have heard and learned all his tricks.

I expect objections, many citing the 9th symphony, or the 2nd or the 4th.

I think they just haven't listened often enough.

Still, I would love to be proved wrong :-)

I didn't take to Mahler first times I heard him, I thought long winded and rambling, difficult to keep my mind on it. Now I like him for just that. He goes from children's song, band marches, visions of nature and into touching the mysteries of the universe. All in rotating short courses. He really touches my soul in a wonderful musical dance from profound to intimate.

Thanks mike I'll look into those prokofiev pieces also.

I strongly recommend Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor, with it's lyrical and bittersweet theme, melting tonalities, and when the orchestra reenters after the cadenza, it sounds like a star nursery at the center of an expanding galaxy.

The recording I recommend is by pianist Yundi Li and conductor Seiji Ozawa.

All best,
Fred

I have to make some general comments about atonal music. By this I mean the music of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern and everything that flowed from it. This would include the dry and lifeless works by Stravinsky in his last two decades.

One of the most fundamental aspects of music is the ability to create tension and release. Atonal music excels at creating tension, but is woefully deficient in providing the listener with a sense of release. It's a non-starter.

It is music that makes all of its arguments for existence on paper, and never in performance.

It's hard to play, and it makes all the musical demands conceivable. But there is no payback for the listener.

This music came out of a time when life was without joy or hope, and for good reason.

Thank you NO! I'm going to let that water pass under the bridge without letting so much as a finger get wet.

Nature and music, tension and release, that's where my musical heart lay.

I own about 200 of these recordings. I call it the Horror venue. I tried for three decades to assimilate it into my heart. All I can say is : PURE POISON.

Minimalist music is a form based on repetition.
It can be quite beautiful. However the pacing can be boring. I don't want my music to put me in a trance.

This is something I'd like to look further into.

Any recommendations?