Dura-Ace ten speed
Posted by: Tim Jones on 16 September 2003
My dealer has the first ten speed Dura-Ace guppos in the UK (or so he says) Anyone tried it yet? Any views?
I'm thinking of getting it put on the C40.
Tim
I'm thinking of getting it put on the C40.
Tim
Posted on: 24 September 2003 by Former member
Pricing
The largest cycling store around here has the Dura Ace 10s available next week. Official retail price is 2.324 Euro, the discounted price (seatpost, aheadset and pedals excluded) is 1.290 Euro.
The (old?) 9s speed is now on offer (hubs, seatpost, aheadset and pedals excluded) at 790 Euro (a bargain, considering that shifters & levers only retail at 570 E.).
Happy shopping.
Stefano.
The largest cycling store around here has the Dura Ace 10s available next week. Official retail price is 2.324 Euro, the discounted price (seatpost, aheadset and pedals excluded) is 1.290 Euro.
The (old?) 9s speed is now on offer (hubs, seatpost, aheadset and pedals excluded) at 790 Euro (a bargain, considering that shifters & levers only retail at 570 E.).
Happy shopping.
Stefano.
Posted on: 24 September 2003 by Former member
Stefano, can you combine 9 and 10 speed components? If so, I might replace my current Ultegra with 9 speed at a reasonable price, and then replace bits of it with the newer stuff over time or as it wears out.
Ross
Ross
Posted on: 24 September 2003 by Former member
Ross
hubs are compatible, so that you could use your current wheelset. Brakes are compatible as well, but levers (with integrated shifters) are not. Transmission bits are not compatible, as the 10s chain is narrower than the 9s one and so are the sprockets (although you might use the new rear and front derailleurs on the old version, which makes nonsense).
I don't understand if you're going to mix your current Ultegra with some Dura Ace 10s components.
The main point is that upgrading some bits is financially insane as you would pay some components, when purchased separately, much more than the whole groupset.
You might eventually trade your whole Ultegra for the new gruppo, but that would be breaking the 'frame first' rule
Stefano.
hubs are compatible, so that you could use your current wheelset. Brakes are compatible as well, but levers (with integrated shifters) are not. Transmission bits are not compatible, as the 10s chain is narrower than the 9s one and so are the sprockets (although you might use the new rear and front derailleurs on the old version, which makes nonsense).
I don't understand if you're going to mix your current Ultegra with some Dura Ace 10s components.
The main point is that upgrading some bits is financially insane as you would pay some components, when purchased separately, much more than the whole groupset.
You might eventually trade your whole Ultegra for the new gruppo, but that would be breaking the 'frame first' rule
Stefano.
Posted on: 25 September 2003 by Former member
quote:You're right, I wouldn't want to have a mullet bike. So you've convinced me to buy the De Rosa King. I'm off to the bike shop tomorrow. It's still cheaper than a CDS3.
You might eventually trade your whole Ultegra for the new gruppo, but that would be breaking the 'frame first' rule
Ross
Posted on: 26 September 2003 by Bruce Woodhouse
While we are all lashing loads of cash on our bikes this Autumn can I put in a plug for a bit of charity.
I got my Sustrans membership renewal this week and the newsletter makes impressive reading They are the 'sustainable transport' charity whose main thrust is impoving cycle tracks and the National Cycle Newtwork. The map is really coming together-big improvements since I joined a few years ago. I've no idea if other countries have similar organisations but the link below gives more info (plus maps etc). Worth £3 month I reckon.
Bruce
Sustrans homepage
I got my Sustrans membership renewal this week and the newsletter makes impressive reading They are the 'sustainable transport' charity whose main thrust is impoving cycle tracks and the National Cycle Newtwork. The map is really coming together-big improvements since I joined a few years ago. I've no idea if other countries have similar organisations but the link below gives more info (plus maps etc). Worth £3 month I reckon.
Bruce
Sustrans homepage
Posted on: 27 September 2003 by rafizi
long live CAMPY!! long live CAMPY!!
Posted on: 24 October 2003 by Former member
I have just been on my first ride on the new bike (a Trek OCLV) with 10 Speed Dura Ace - a quick 30k after work to test it out.
The difference from my old 9 speed Ultegra (I say "Old" but I actually only had it for 2 months) was not quite as dramatic as I would have expected, but the shifting is noticeably sharper and tighter, the hoods are definitely more comfortable and better suited to smaller hands (like mine), the braking action is enormously better, much faster and more controlled slowing and stopping (bearing in mind it was my first - relatively short - ride on the bike, I don't have much to compare it to, and pretty much everything on the bike was new).
The Trek carbon frame is also clearly superb; it felt easily as stiff as the aluminium bike it replaced, with improvements in comfort as well as speed (it's a full 3kg lighter!). I found myself climbing out of the saddle and hammering the big chain ring rather more than I normally do (although that could partly just be the new bike effect) and enjoying every minute. There's an 80k bunch ride in the morning, so I can't wait to get it out there.
(I also had the bike shop install a Fizik Aliante saddle, which gets rave reviews, and deservedly so. It is enormously more comfortable than any other saddle I've tried, and I've easily been through 5 or 6 in the last two months. It far surpasses the closest contender, the Selle Italia Prolink Trans Am, and is about 150g lighter. Highly recommended.)
Ross
The difference from my old 9 speed Ultegra (I say "Old" but I actually only had it for 2 months) was not quite as dramatic as I would have expected, but the shifting is noticeably sharper and tighter, the hoods are definitely more comfortable and better suited to smaller hands (like mine), the braking action is enormously better, much faster and more controlled slowing and stopping (bearing in mind it was my first - relatively short - ride on the bike, I don't have much to compare it to, and pretty much everything on the bike was new).
The Trek carbon frame is also clearly superb; it felt easily as stiff as the aluminium bike it replaced, with improvements in comfort as well as speed (it's a full 3kg lighter!). I found myself climbing out of the saddle and hammering the big chain ring rather more than I normally do (although that could partly just be the new bike effect) and enjoying every minute. There's an 80k bunch ride in the morning, so I can't wait to get it out there.
(I also had the bike shop install a Fizik Aliante saddle, which gets rave reviews, and deservedly so. It is enormously more comfortable than any other saddle I've tried, and I've easily been through 5 or 6 in the last two months. It far surpasses the closest contender, the Selle Italia Prolink Trans Am, and is about 150g lighter. Highly recommended.)
Ross
Posted on: 24 October 2003 by Tim Jones
Ross -
have you tried an SLR saddle? They look extremely uncomfortable, but oddly they just suit the shape of my arse and bigger, softer saddles just feel uncomfortable in comparison.
Plus they're v light (c150gms)...
Nice to hear the new DA brakes are better. That was one of the real downsides of the old gruppo - they always felt a bit spongy, especially compared to Campy brakes.
Tim
have you tried an SLR saddle? They look extremely uncomfortable, but oddly they just suit the shape of my arse and bigger, softer saddles just feel uncomfortable in comparison.
Plus they're v light (c150gms)...
Nice to hear the new DA brakes are better. That was one of the real downsides of the old gruppo - they always felt a bit spongy, especially compared to Campy brakes.
Tim
Posted on: 24 October 2003 by Former member
Tim,
The SLR was one I hadn't tried, but would have next if the Aliante hadn't worked out. I've heard that the sLR is more comfortable than it looks. But based on today's ride, I think the Aliante is it.
Ross
The SLR was one I hadn't tried, but would have next if the Aliante hadn't worked out. I've heard that the sLR is more comfortable than it looks. But based on today's ride, I think the Aliante is it.
Ross
Posted on: 24 October 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
Originally posted by Ross Blackman:
Tim,
The SLR was one I hadn't tried, but would have next if the Aliante hadn't worked out. I've heard that the sLR is more comfortable than it looks. But based on today's ride, I think the Aliante is it.
Ross
The SLR is comfortable but you have to be careful about the type of seatpost you put it on. The saddle is designed to flex in order to make up for its lack of padding. If you have a seatpost of the Colnago Carbon (ITM) style that has adjustment bolts pointing up towards the seat then you may have some issues unless you're jockey-sized.
Posted on: 24 October 2003 by Tim Jones
No issues here with my 'Nago seapost John.
But then again I am a jockey-sized nine stone.
Tim
But then again I am a jockey-sized nine stone.
Tim
Posted on: 26 October 2003 by Former member
I think I spoke too soon about the new DA. Within 2 days of picking up the bike, one of the cranks fell off while riding. There are also some inexplicable rattlings in the rear cassette and some chain rub on the front derailleur in certain combinations. It was irritating to have to take the bike back to the shop two days after buying it, about 20 minutes into a planned 3 hour ride.
Ross
Ross
Posted on: 27 October 2003 by Tim Jones
Ross -
Sorry to hear about that. Bit worrying for the rest of us potential DA 10 buyers. Which crank fell off? Was it the left hand one (bolted to the axle) or the right hand one ("press fitted to the axle with a force of 5000 kilos").
Can you tell if these probs are due to set-up or inherent design issues?
Though I haven't really had any mechanical problems with the three DA9 groups I've run for the past coupde of years, it has always seemed a bit noisier than the Campy Chorus group I ran before.
Tim
Sorry to hear about that. Bit worrying for the rest of us potential DA 10 buyers. Which crank fell off? Was it the left hand one (bolted to the axle) or the right hand one ("press fitted to the axle with a force of 5000 kilos").
Can you tell if these probs are due to set-up or inherent design issues?
Though I haven't really had any mechanical problems with the three DA9 groups I've run for the past coupde of years, it has always seemed a bit noisier than the Campy Chorus group I ran before.
Tim
Posted on: 27 October 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Jones:
No issues here with my 'Nago seapost John.
But then again I am a jockey-sized nine stone.
Tim
well that's a couple of stone less than me, no doubt just enough to stop it bottoming-out on the pin.
Posted on: 27 October 2003 by Former member
quote:My LBS is a large, well-equipped one (they seem to have about six mechanics working at any one time, seven days a week), and are also the local Trek distributor, so I think their mechanical skills should be pretty good, and I know that they take extra care with the more expensive bikes. They were also extremely embarrassed when I brought the bike back with the crank - the left one - in my hand. In fact, the bolt holding the crank had fallen out during a previous ride (I had heard it drop, but didn't know what it was, so kept pedalling). I have a feeling it could be a design fault, although time will tell. There have certainly been suggestions around the web that Shimano are releasing 10 speed without sufficient testing, and maybe that's true.
Which crank fell off? Was it the left hand one (bolted to the axle) or the right hand one ("press fitted to the axle with a force of 5000 kilos")...Can you tell if these probs are due to set-up or inherent design issues?
Ross
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Former member
Ross
My Trek is at my bike shop getting Dura-Ace 10 speed put on as we speak. It's a double whammy upgrade for me as I get to take the 9 speed dura-ace off my Trek and transplant it on to my KHS Flite 2000 training bike in place of some rather worn, 1995 vintage ultegra/600.
Anyhow - I had vague recollections of your post and since I'm about to become a 10 speed owner I was curious as to how you (or anyone else) is getting on with your new group set - particularly after your last post.
Strangely, my big problem is getting 10 speed cassettes - I need 3 of them (one for each of me race wheels) and they aren't cheap or particuarly easy to get hold of here in NZ. I'm thinking a 12-25 for my hill climbing wheels, a 12-23 for my Tri spoke rear and a 12-21 for my disc. Everything over here seems to be 11-23. Unless you are Jan or Mario - or riding huge long descents in the Alps - why would anyone get an 11??? I'd certainly never use it here.
Anyways - keen to hear how you like it a few months down the track....
regards
Richard
Richie T
[This message was edited by Richie T on MONDAY 15 December 2003 at 01:43.]
My Trek is at my bike shop getting Dura-Ace 10 speed put on as we speak. It's a double whammy upgrade for me as I get to take the 9 speed dura-ace off my Trek and transplant it on to my KHS Flite 2000 training bike in place of some rather worn, 1995 vintage ultegra/600.
Anyhow - I had vague recollections of your post and since I'm about to become a 10 speed owner I was curious as to how you (or anyone else) is getting on with your new group set - particularly after your last post.
Strangely, my big problem is getting 10 speed cassettes - I need 3 of them (one for each of me race wheels) and they aren't cheap or particuarly easy to get hold of here in NZ. I'm thinking a 12-25 for my hill climbing wheels, a 12-23 for my Tri spoke rear and a 12-21 for my disc. Everything over here seems to be 11-23. Unless you are Jan or Mario - or riding huge long descents in the Alps - why would anyone get an 11??? I'd certainly never use it here.
Anyways - keen to hear how you like it a few months down the track....
regards
Richard
Richie T
[This message was edited by Richie T on MONDAY 15 December 2003 at 01:43.]
Posted on: 14 December 2003 by Former member
Richie,
The teething problems seem to have been sorted out with a few adjustments and a bit of running in - and thankfully the cranks are staying stuck on either side of the bike.
The shifting on the front derailleur remains very tight and smooth - often the shifting is so smooth and quiet, I have to look down to check that the chain has actually moved to the other chainring, despite what my legs are telling me.
The braking is a big improvement, but I suspect may still not be as good as Campag: it still feels a little soft. The levers feel okay, although I don't really notice much difference in the rotational movement of the shifters, but the hoods are definitely more comfortable.
The shifting on the rear derailleur seems bit too imprecise; or, more likely, I am shifting in a way that is a bit too imprecise, since there is often a rattle indicating a incomplete shift (usually corrected by hitting the inner lever), and occasionally an unintentional double shift. All of this is probably user error rather than a product fault.
I use the standard 11-23 cassette. I find that I do use the 11, although rarely. To be honest, I didn't give it much thought when I bought it, but perhaps 12-25 would be more useful than 11-23, especially since I use the shorter 170mm cranks.
I'm also thinking about buying a cheaper wheel to use on a trainer, and maybe buying an Ultegra or 105 cassette for that wheel (when the 10 speed versions come out). Maybe I'll buy a 12-25 and switch the 11-23 to the training wheel. (First, I have to buy a trainer.) In your case, having to buy 3 DA cassettes could prove quite costly.
The 10 speed Shimano flight deck will also replace my malfunctioning Cateye computer when it is released in January.
Otherwise, I'm really enjoying the bike. I was thinking of swapping out the Bontrager bars for some ITM or Easton carbon bars, but the Bontragers are so comfortable, especially in the drops, that I no longer really feel inclined to do this.
To answer your question - and again bearing in mind that I don't have all that much to compare it to - the new Dura Ace is great, and certainly seems to function a lot better and a lot more smoothly than the clunky shifters I hear going off around me when I'm riding in a group. I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.
Ross
The teething problems seem to have been sorted out with a few adjustments and a bit of running in - and thankfully the cranks are staying stuck on either side of the bike.
The shifting on the front derailleur remains very tight and smooth - often the shifting is so smooth and quiet, I have to look down to check that the chain has actually moved to the other chainring, despite what my legs are telling me.
The braking is a big improvement, but I suspect may still not be as good as Campag: it still feels a little soft. The levers feel okay, although I don't really notice much difference in the rotational movement of the shifters, but the hoods are definitely more comfortable.
The shifting on the rear derailleur seems bit too imprecise; or, more likely, I am shifting in a way that is a bit too imprecise, since there is often a rattle indicating a incomplete shift (usually corrected by hitting the inner lever), and occasionally an unintentional double shift. All of this is probably user error rather than a product fault.
I use the standard 11-23 cassette. I find that I do use the 11, although rarely. To be honest, I didn't give it much thought when I bought it, but perhaps 12-25 would be more useful than 11-23, especially since I use the shorter 170mm cranks.
I'm also thinking about buying a cheaper wheel to use on a trainer, and maybe buying an Ultegra or 105 cassette for that wheel (when the 10 speed versions come out). Maybe I'll buy a 12-25 and switch the 11-23 to the training wheel. (First, I have to buy a trainer.) In your case, having to buy 3 DA cassettes could prove quite costly.
The 10 speed Shimano flight deck will also replace my malfunctioning Cateye computer when it is released in January.
Otherwise, I'm really enjoying the bike. I was thinking of swapping out the Bontrager bars for some ITM or Easton carbon bars, but the Bontragers are so comfortable, especially in the drops, that I no longer really feel inclined to do this.
To answer your question - and again bearing in mind that I don't have all that much to compare it to - the new Dura Ace is great, and certainly seems to function a lot better and a lot more smoothly than the clunky shifters I hear going off around me when I'm riding in a group. I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.
Ross
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by Former member
quote:
Unless you are Jan or Mario - or riding huge long descents in the Alps - why would anyone get an 11??? I'd certainly never use it here.
I have the 11-21 cassette on my Mavic Cosmic and Mavic Comete (disc wheel). Actually it's very rare for me to use the 11, but when it happens I feel really need it.
For example in team time trials average speed is much higher than in solo racing and if you have some wind in your back you can easily reach 60/65 km/h. My computer recorded 67.6 km/h on flat terrain during the last team time trial, with a strong wind pushing us from behind. Moreover, most people prefer to use a lighter gear when leading the team and a harder gear when resting behind, so when the first rider is pushing on the 12, the others are 'recovering' with the 11. Not a big relief, actually.
On road racing instead you might need the 11 when descending or approaching the finish line and the road gradient is favourable or again, some wind is pushing. However, you need to be a pro to sprint with the 11 (at least I can't).
quote:
Strangely, my big problem is getting 10 speed cassettes - I need 3 of them (one for each of me race wheels) and they aren't cheap or particuarly easy to get hold of here in NZ
Don't you have Marchisio cessettes? Marchisio makes cassettes which are compatible with 8/9/10 speed from Campy and Shimano. They are quite cheaper (approx 100 Euro for 10 speed) and you can choose the combination (you buy ten cogs of your choice, then assemble the cassette). The quality is very high, they are light and durable. Moreover, you can use say a 11/21 then convert it into a 12/25 buying the extra cogs that you need. I have two sets and they work very well (certainly not worse than the original Campy and Shimano cassettes).
Stefano.
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by Former member
quote:
Originally posted by Stefano Rosati:quote:
Unless you are Jan or Mario - or riding huge long descents in the Alps - why would anyone get an 11??? I'd certainly never use it here.
I have the 11-21 cassette on my Mavic Cosmic and Mavic Comete (disc wheel). Actually it's very rare for me to use the 11, but when it happens I feel really need it.
For example in team time trials average speed is much higher than in solo racing and if you have some wind in your back you can easily reach 60/65 km/h. My computer recorded 67.6 km/h on flat terrain during the last team time trial, with a strong wind pushing us from behind. Moreover, most people prefer to use a lighter gear when leading the team and a harder gear when resting behind, so when the first rider is pushing on the 12, the others are 'recovering' with the 11. Not a big relief, actually.
On road racing instead you might need the 11 when descending or approaching the finish line and the road gradient is favourable or again, some wind is pushing. However, you need to be a pro to sprint with the 11 (at least I can't).quote:
Strangely, my big problem is getting 10 speed cassettes - I need 3 of them (one for each of me race wheels) and they aren't cheap or particuarly easy to get hold of here in NZ
Don't you have Marchisio cessettes in NZ? Marchisio makes cassettes which are compatible with 8/9/10 speed from Campy and Shimano. They are quite cheaper (approx 100 Euro for 10 speed) and you can choose the combination (you buy ten cogs of your choice, then assemble the cassette). The quality is very high, they are light and durable. Moreover, you can use say a 11/21 then convert it into a 12/25 buying the extra cogs that you need. I have two sets and they work very well (certainly not worse than the original Campy and Shimano cassettes).
Stefano.
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by Jim Waugh
Just remember, it's 90% legs and 10% bike 
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by Tim Jones
Too true Jim, too true. There's nothing to beat the rush of knowing that you are actually getting fitter and better.
Venga Roberto!, venga!
Tim
Venga Roberto!, venga!
Tim