Gas central heating boilers

Hi John,

This is subject is particularly topical for me because my combi boiler was serviced by British Gas just a couple of weeks ago. During the service the mechanic informed me that the boiler was so inefficient and, more to the point, gushing out so much carbon monoxide pollutant that if he couldn't get it below the limit (.00080 parts per million or something like that) he would have switched the boiler off completely and I would have lost all my central heating forthwith!!!

My boiler is 13 years old this year - it was fitted at the time my house was built in 1992 and I inherited it from the previous owners. I should stress also that my house is considerably smaller than yours, being a two-bedroomed terraced jobby, and AFAIK this is size much suited to combi boilers, since there is no requirement to find extra room for a water tank and all that. And despite all the business with the pollution and the inefficiency it's done a fine job of heating my house.

I will however need to choose a new boiler myself in the next few months because it's pretty certain that my existing combi won't pass the emissions test at the next annual service. However, there is a complication here:- apparently under the Kyoto agreement any boiler replacements that take place from April or May this year are required to be condenser boilers, which are like combis but have a secondary heat exchanger. This is apparently because they emit mostly water vapour and are therefore relatively emissions-free, but my worry here is their reputation at present of being rather less than trouble-free.

So I guess that if you're going to replace your boiler and don't want to put a condenser in, do it sooner rather than later!

Good luck.

Regards,

Jon

TC

call a number of plumbers (CORGI registered) and get as many quotes as you want but ask each one how much they guarantee you will save on your present bills as a result.

I suspect that given there are only the 2 of you a combi would be most economical but I wonder how many will suggest a gas condensing boiler?

TC

I have a 25 year old Potterton cast iron boiler and there is no way on earth I will change it.

Any good plumber will tell you that these boilers are about 10% less efficient that a condensing one but they are a lot more reliable.

You can only have radiator thermastats fitted on some of your radiators because they restrict the flow. The condensing process is corrosive and in 5 years time you can expect a bill.

How many years will it take you to recoup the cost of a new boiler?

Have your current boiler serviced, if it is the cast iron ones, it will go on forever.

If the house is cold, fit double skinned rads, that makes a big difference.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
I suspect that given there are only the 2 of you a combi would be most economical but I wonder how many will suggest a gas condensing boiler?

I thought condensor boilers are now required by law? Something to do with hothouse asses or some such.

Yes

From the 1st of April this year.

Mick

Clay pidgeon pie breaks yer teeth though !

My rented bungalow comes with a BAXI combi boiler. I love the way that it switches itself on and within two minutes the radiators go from stone cold to red hot.

What I don't like is that the thermostat is in the hallway right by the front door, so each time I open the door to smoke a fag the boiler kicks in...

I'll let you know what my first quartely bill turns out to be.

The good thing about renting is that when something goes wrong the landlord pays...

Mick may be right though.

If he was MIProdE as he says he was, just like my old man (not much older than Mick), he'll know his shit.

The old dears were told recently to replace their boiler and central heating system (from 1986 that runs very smoothly and reliably) for a combi jobbie and new central heating system that would cost as much as a Classic range Naim system including speakers and Fraim, as they only have 60% of potential efficiency, apparently...

IIRC, I think he politely told the chap to go away.

Those double-barrelled radiators are great for drying your washing but they are not a patch on the evil radiators you find in Central Europe that not only heat your house, but have your lips sealed together when you wake up in the morning.

They don't come with thermostats anywhere within the house other than windows that open!

How lucky we are other than that we don't get cheap gas as they do.

Top Cat

I echo Mick's advice on this one. I installed a cast iron Glow Worm 85,000 BTHU balanced flue boiler in my 4 bed Victorian semi when we moved in 24 years ago and it is still going strong. My house sounds about the same size as yours - two decent living rooms, breakfast 4/5bed two bathrooms. 80 -85,000 Bthu is about right.

A 25 year old boiler will be pre electronic control and will have virtually nothing to go wrong. I hoover out the dust once a year if I remember. I think I have fitted one replacement electrode in 24 years and that was only a couple of quid.

A new cast iron boiler will set you back about £850 plus installation. If you need a new pump and extra controls this will be extra.

Have you cleaned out your system recently. I don't mean just a drain down but a full clean and flush.

I did this for my in-laws last summer and it completely transformed the performance and noise level of their system. You basically need to drain down the system and then remove each radiator in turn and take it out into the garden and flush the sludge out with a hose pipe. Refit, refill, bleed the system add the "Fernox" and you may well find your system has gained a new lease of life.

I would advise against a combi on a house of your size and I'm not a graet fan of the condensing jobs either. Basically you need a good lump of cast iron and no frilly electronics to go wrong

Eddie

condensing boilers must be fitted after 1st april 2005 ( there is a points scheme where it may be possible to fit a conventional type )
also after april you will get a whole host of new controls to go with it
best practice will be programmable roomstats and thermostatic radiator valves to all rads except one where r stat is
all this must be done by a competent installer and certified thru governing bodies , which you the home owner will recieve a certificate to go with your " homeowner pack " ( needed in future to sell your house)
john
you will need adequate water supply pressure for a combi to work .worcester greenstars he plus range are the 552 of the combi world.
a combi would make sense for you as you only heat up water that you will use,get your system powerflushed first
ive fitted a few greenstars( very common in germany im led to believe ) and ive electronicaly analyzed their efficiency at 98.5%

im afraid after 1st april the law dictates what you will fit , but not the make

neil

quote:

you will need adequate water supply pressure for a combi to work .worcester greenstars he plus range are the 552 of the combi world. a combi would make sense for you as you only heat up water that you will use,get your system powerflushed first. ive fitted a few greenstars( very common in germany im led to believe ) and ive electronicaly analyzed their efficiency at 98.5%

Hi Neil, how's it going (do you still have your 552?)

When you talk about water pressure, I take it you mean incoming mains pressure? If so, that's probably fine. Is a Combi suitable for a moderately above averaged sized house (1600 square feet approx, average 11' ceilings throughout)? Also, how much do you think I should expect to pay for a top-dog replacement boiler (assuming no change to pipework necessary)?

Thanks,

John

John

A combi is no good for a four bedroomed house.

It will devalue your house because a 4 bed house will attract families with children and a combi system is not up to providing enough hot water for several people. In other words, if someone is having a shower, no one else can draw off hot water in sufficient quantities at the same time.

You will have to fit a condenser system or as suggested (my choice) get your existing system overhauled.

Your system is powerful enough, it sounds like it needs a good plumber to spend a day servicing it.

My system is 25 yrs old and working well. There is no reason for yours not to do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by neil w:
condensing boilers must be fitted after 1st april 2005 ( there is a points scheme where it may be possible to fit a conventional type )
also after april you will get a whole host of new controls to go with it
best practice will be programmable roomstats and thermostatic radiator valves to all rads except one where r stat is
all this must be done by a competent installer and certified thru governing bodies , which you the home owner will recieve a certificate to go with your " homeowner pack " ( needed in future to sell your house)
john
you will need adequate water supply pressure for a combi to work .worcester greenstars he plus range are the 552 of the combi world.
a combi would make sense for you as you only heat up water that you will use,get your system powerflushed first
ive fitted a few greenstars( very common in germany im led to believe ) and ive electronicaly analyzed their efficiency at 98.5%

im afraid after 1st april the law dictates what you will fit , but not the make

neil

Let me get this right - after 1st April the only type of boiler you are allowed by law to install (either new or as a replacement)is a condenser? Where can I find out more about this?

Google

mick
a combi boiler will supply hot water for however long the hot water tap is left open or turned on and off ( bath after bath after bath )
your conventional cylinderwill take at least 20 mins to reheat ( and thats a high efficiency one .yours if its been in 20 years wont be)
most combi biolers heat output starts at 80,000 btus and go upto 150,000 well past suitable for a 4 bed house ! ( ive just fitted a 110,000 btu combi in a 350sqmtr property 3 bathrooms ,1 cloakroom,2 sinks the flow rate on hot water is 22ltrs a min it will do two taps running at once
john
a cobi will heat up your house no problem at all ,will your lifestyle dictate you could have 2 taps running at same time hot or cold , if so go for one with a high flow rate( higher flow rates = more expensive)
a greenstar 40he+ wall hung 16ltrs + min £1250 - 1500 PURCHASE PRICE
a worcester highflow 440 floor stander ( size of a washing machine) 20 ltrs a min £1000 - 1400 purchase price
bear in mind ltrs out relies on ltrs in get someone to check the flow rate on your cold water taps
a high efficiency boiler will add value to your house as any normal person will know that its going to be cost efficient to run and they wont have the expense of replacing a 25 yr old boiler and system controls with a high efficiency model later on ( cast iron heat exchangers are ineffcient ( check your instructions look at heat input to heat output then look at how much heat you are losing) a condensing flue temp is about 50-60c normal boiler is 150-200c quite a bit of valuable heat going out the flue ?

nigel

there will be exceptions via a points scheme but very few will probablys meet it

regards neil
john just took delivery of mini cooper s works convertible MEGA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had a new Vaillant installed last year when our old Potterton finally died after 26 years service. At the time we were advised that for our circumstances (2 adults, 2 kids, 4 bedrooms, 2 public rooms, 2 bathrooms, lots of showers, washing machine and dish washer on regularly, etc) a combi was not recommended. The combi we were going to need was also substantially more expensive(50% more if I remember correctly).

Also, the staff toilet next to my office in work has a combi fitted and if more than 2 people want to wash their hands at the same time it struggles to provide the required hot water.

Neil, just out of interest, are you Corgi registered and up for a cash in hand boiler refit gig

John

john
im corgi registered ,oftec registered , unvented hot water certified , and energy efficiency certified ( to building regs l1) which means i can by law recomend and self certify all installations i do
whats the night life like in the fife riviera?
tomk
with all due respect you have just proved that most things come down to cost you could have had a combi but due to cost chose not to .
out of interest what did you get

heres one for you all to ponder

as from 1st april 2005 all boiler installations will have to be reported to governing bodies ( corgi / oftec ) who will then inform local building control of the installation, by a self certified installer, and then send a certificate to the householder of competence which will have to be kept for the "householder pack"
if the installer cannot self certify then local building control will be notified and inspect and sign off work as compotent at a cost of £250+
also any electrical work done on the installation comes under part p and will also have to be certified independantly of the plumbing work in the same ways

plumbing and heating installations and electrical work regulations are tightening up severely and will lead to increased costs to the consumer if they use fully qaulified installers

neil

john due to current legislation after 1st april there will be no such thing as a cash in hand job which really will benefit the end user as there will always be a comeback !

Hi Neil. We got a Vaillant Thermocompact 628 (I think - can't remember for definite what the number is). It didn't all come down to price. We weighed up the pros and cons and, given the way we use water, the combi didn't seem the one for us. I was particularly concerned about the difficulties in delivering hot water to more than one place at the same time.

Neil

I am a small landlord who rents houses in order to supplement my pension.

My tenant moans constantly about the combi heating systems inabilty for two taps to provide hot water at the same time.

I have grown to hate the bloody system even though I do not use it.

I know a few estate agents socially who have told me many times that prospective buyers dislike combi system more than most other systems.

Regards

Mick

Just got home, best I say nuuffink

Neil, the nightlife isn't great on the 'Riviera' but Edinburgh's close by and I do maintain a well stocked cupboard of cask-strength malts from SMWS if that takes your fancy.

I'd be quite happy to give you the work, but it is a long way for you to come. Of course, there's plenty of music to punctuate the workie bit, and you will be fed, watered and accommodated also - which is just as well considering a MCSWks and whisky don't mix so well. Alas, I sold my MCS during the Big 2004 Clean Out, but I'm still a big fan, and from other Works motors I've seen, they're great

Let me know if you're up for a bit of a working holiday

John

As an owner of the original release of the original condensing boiler (TriSave Turbo 60 1988) and no corrosion problems to date (problems with every other bloody thing on the boiler, however), but with a conventional hot water system, I'd say...

Get a Vailant. Nothing to touch them in terms of sheer integrity.

But don't get a combi. Unless you're really lucky with your water supply, you'll never get decent shower pressure, and even if you do it'll go wibbly when someone flushes a bog while you're under it (the shower).

At least with a hot water tank you can have a pumped shower with a separate hot feed off the tank using an Essex flange (yes, I too thought that this was something off a Capri bell housing).

JonR;

I think it's possible that your British Gas engineer was a wanker. Our boiler is 5 years older than yours, and our British Gas engineer, when confronted with a high CO reading, took it very personally and proceeded to strip the boiler virtually to component level all over the kitchen floor, muttering all the while. Over the course of 4 consecutive daily visits to fit quite a lot of new bits (all included in the 12 quid a month service agreement) he achieved a CO reading so low that it actually registered a string of zeros on the meter. "Fuck me" he said with a massive grin, then packed up his tools and left.

While he was working, I plied him with a large quantity of sandwiches and engineer-grade tea. As a result, we had a long conversation about BG "maintenance" policies. It seems that BG engineers are under some pressure to "conclude" a maintenance / breakdown case -- and often any conclusion is seen as better than an ongoing saga. Engineers are individually rated in an internal leaque table on speed of completion, and condemning a boiler is a nice quick way to wrap it all up. Plus, their department gets a kickback from New Sales if you buy a replacement boiler from BG. I was really lucky to have a BG employee who was engineer enough to take it personally when the device was sub-optimal. Touch wood, it's been fantastic since then.

The engineers themselves seldom see any of their colleagues, as they work from home out of vans, with only a laptop and cellphone connecting them to their workplace. Their calls arrive on the computer overnight, and they are closely monitored in terms of use of time. If they order parts, this is done from the computer, and they then collect from a post office the next day. Overall, it's efficient but soulless -- luckily we had one whom I suspect wanted a distraction from HO pressure.

I would suggest that you get your case "escalated" -- every region has "troubleshooting" engineers who are called in when there is no obvious cause for the problem. As long as parts are available for the boiler, they should fix it -- that's what fixed cost service aggreement is all about.

Good luck!

Mark,

Thanks for that - btw you're paying less than me for your service agreement as well! I'm rarely particularly lucky with the choice of staff I get at my house - usually they are jobsworths who don't give a toss except to do the absolute minimum that they can do. To be fair to the guy he did make the effort, I suppose, to get the boiler to a state where it would pass the emissions test, although no way did he strip it like your engineer did beyond taking off the front panel and cleaning and there.

I should have plied with him with endless supplies of food and drink - aaah that's the secret!

He reckoned that they only make boilers to last 15 years or so. Then he phoned the call centre and passed his mobile to me so that I can speak to them about arranging a quote - and "soulless" is right! The woman sounded like she was reading everything to say off some flowchart! That gave the mechanic a chance to be "on my side" but even so my experience of him does rather seem to fit in with what you describe.

It would be a shame to get rid of the boiler if it can actually be fixed properly - it's a Worcester and they're meant to be the best make of combi boilers. It's largely trouble-free and heats my house no problem.

I think a call to BG is in order!

Cheers,

Jon