Do you take your arms off?

Quickie, have a look at Linn's .pdf doc about this. It makes the hazards of in-situ cartridge mounting quite plain.

Others: Surely with a Linn cartridge at least, the screw heads should be downwards, with the screws inserted through the cartridge, then headshell slots, and the nuts on top. This means that even with the arm mounted, you couldn't get an adequately-sized screwdriver to connect with the screw heads.

Linn recommend tightening their allen bolts to "a point where the allen key starts to bend". This is when they have supplied the arm, the cartridge, the bolts, and the allen key. They have thus defined all the variables, and given clear guidelines. Ittok bearings are apparently unobtainable from Linn, and Ekos bearings cost an enormous amount of money to replace. For the sake of 15 minutes (if that) why on earth take chances?

(Oh look, an electrical storm. Excuse me while I dash out and run around in it carrying a 50ft metal pole. Must be safe -- nothing happened last time...)

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Mark, the point is we don't believe Linn, not that we fail to understand what they say. I don't think that "until it starts to bend" is any reasonable way to quantify correct torque settings if they are indeed critical (which I doubt).

There is no way I would tighten a cartridge to the point where the allen key starts to bend!This is totally over the top.

quote:

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posted WEDNESDAY 30 October 2002 18:34  
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Mark, the point is we don't believe Linn, not that we fail to understand what they say. I don't think that "until it starts to bend" is any reasonable way to quantify correct torque settings if they are indeed critical (which I doubt).

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No, I see your point exactly, It's just that, for all their faults, Linn did design and build those arms. They know what they'll take and what they won't. They can control everything in the equation except who buys them and fits a cartridge, so naturally they are keen to give guidelines, for those who want to have a go themselves. I think that if you don't follow them, you absolve Linn of even the slightest responsibilty for poor results from your gear from that moment on, and frankly I would rather that any problems were at least partly theirs rather than all mine.

Another example: Like most people, I am perfectly capable of wielding a duster with reasonable precision. And yet, I persist in fitting my stylus guard when dusting the TT's armboard. Why? Because there was one occasion nearly 3 years ago when I didn't, and the phone rang at the wrong moment. Not using the guard cost me a 6 month old DV10x4. It's those moments when you just want to rewind your life 1.5 seconds which tend to influence future habits!

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Cant really see why Linn should be lieing about this, it doesn't benifit them in anyway.
All you have to do is pull the arm cable out , unbolt the locking collar and the arm is out in a few minutes, if your capable of fitting a cartridge your not going to take it to a dealer just for that.

Remmember when you tighten a cartridge you are causeing twisting motions in the arm tube which is fixed ONLY via its bearing to the cenrtal pillar.Every movment you make pulls on the bearings , pull to hard and your Ekos might as well be an Akito.

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There is no way I would tighten a cartridge to the point where the allen key starts to bend!

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Why not?

I don't see what the resistance to following the instructions is. It takes very little time to remove the arm, fitting the cartridge and aligning it is much easier with the arm off the deck, and you're going to be reseting VTA and tracking weight anyway.

So just do it like they say.

Paul

Ok. Let's say I've removed the arm from the 'table. It's now, what, floating in a gravity free environment? Hardly. It's laying on a table top. Right? So now I have easy access to the underside of the arm and headshell and I install my cartridge. I begin torquing the fasteners. Granted, the tonearm is no longer held fast in the arm-board, but isn't gravity holding it firmly on the table it is laying on? And for heavens sake I can't imagine that the arm assembly is in an unrestrained condition, so it's sitting pretty solid on the table. How is the torque transmitted throught the driver/fastener/headshell/armtube significantly different under these circumstances than if it is in the arm-board? Seems to me the ONLY difference is the direction the arm is facing--in this situation it's laying side-ways on a table instead of standing vertically in the arm board. This is crazy, as is the notion that the fasteners should be tightened until an allen wrench starts to bend!!! Reminds me of another piece of nonsense perpetrated by Linn of cleaning a stylus with a piece of freaking sand paper!! Yeah, Right!!

And, from watching one of the *best* LP12 experts in Chicago set up my 'table in the early '90's I can't see how anyone could claim that dressing the arm cable is a quick and easy matter, since the associated refinement to the Linn "bounce" is significantly affected by the arm dressing...

Markus

Aligning the cartridge off the table would be a pain especially if you had an arm with a fixed cable,a Rega would be the worst.There is no way you can align the cartridge in the headshell with the arm off the table so you would have to just nip the bolts up,then remove to fully tighten fit back on,check alignment.By that time it has probably moved so you do it again!
As for the tightness thing I can see no point in this allen key bending business,especially on the LP12.
I would presume the tighter the bolts,the more energy that is transfered up the arm,goes through the bearings into the arm pilar,the mounting plate and into the armboard.But hold on,we don't want this energy going into the subshassis so we use three tiny screws to hold the armboard on....eh.
Cheers,
Paul.

You have to hold the arm still to do the bolts up.Weather you hold the arm tube or the bearings it is still being held.So what is the difference if it is fixed to the table.This notion,that if you remove it suddenly there is no force on the bearings is shite.

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Aligning the cartridge off the table would be a pain especially if you had an arm with a fixed cable,a Rega would be the worst.

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We're talking about Linn arms, they have detachable arm cables. This also means that the cable remains dressed.

quote:

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There is no way you can align the cartridge in the headshell with the arm off the table so you would have to just nip the bolts up,then remove to fully tighten fit back on,check alignment.By that time it has probably moved so you do it again!

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We're talking about Linn arms. Ittoks used to come with a gauge that fitted the arm base and allowed any cartridge to be aligned correctly with the arm off the deck. Linn cartridges align to grooves in the underside of the headshell, and the three point cartridges have only a very small freedom of movement, you basically just have to ensure they are square to the mark in the arm.

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As for the tightness thing I can see no point in this allen key bending business, especially on the LP12.

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Have you tried it?

'Allen key just bending' isn't very tight in absolute terms. It feels about right with a metal bodied cartridge and reasonable quality fixings. It's not much of a turn beyond 'nipped'.

I really don't see why anybody would go against the manufacturers recommendations, clearly laid out and described, with an arm that costs £1600 to replace (or whatever).

Paul

Hi all:

I've set up literally hundreds of Linn T/Ts with Linn arms and know other people with the same level of experience (although I'm the best, 'natch ;-)
We all agreed...

The bottom line is, TAKE THE ARM OFF.

That's the first time I've shouted on this forum, but reading the last few pages has seriously made me wonder what's so difficult in understanding the ramifications of not removing it? You *will* degrade the performance. End of story.

As to the difficulty of setting cartridge geometry like this, well it just goes with the territory I'm afraid.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

A good exchange about arms, cartridges, rebuilds and stylus cleaners. It doesn't get much better than this, at least from myself.

http://manaforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=462298155&f=172298155&m=3434036481&r=8654058581#8654058581

[This message was edited by John Gilleran on THURSDAY 31 October 2002 at 03:53.]

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I don't think that "until it starts to bend" is any reasonable way to quantify correct torque settings if they are indeed critical (which I doubt).

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Actually I'd say that providing that Linn have control over the Allen key used (true) then it's a very good way of determining torque, based on the fact that some large torque wrenches work exactly this way - by showing a deflection of the lever arm against a calibrated scale.

Andy.

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I'm not sure how everyone else visualises this but to me this paints a picture of tightening to the point of damage to the fixings, headshell and cartridge (try bending a key for an M2 yourselves).

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You don't damage the fixings, headshell or cartridge. Unless you're using some cheesy bits or cartridge in which case they're never going to work properly, so breaking them early is best.

Paul

Have a look at Linn's .pdf referred to earlier in this thread so that you can see exactly what they are saying. This is extracted from it:


8. Once you are satisfied that the cartridge is aligned
remove the arm from your turntable and tighten cartridge
screws in position until Allen (hex) key starts to bend.
Use spanner to hold the nuts in place and stop them
turning . Refit arm and make final check of alignment
(see point 5). When finished place arm in arm clip.

They also make the point that all Linn carts are designed to be mounted this way. Note: Linn are supplying the allen key and the bolts, so they can control quite precisely the relative "give" in each, and they expressly warn against using additional levers.

I can't say whether your Goldring cart would suffer adversely, but more than likely not (I haven't had a Goldring since my original G800e). Obviously if the mountings start to deform, and cart/headshell intimacy becomes compromised as a result, then you back off a bit! Suggest that you ring Touraj at Roksan (0208-900-6801) and ask him if you need to dismount the arm when changing carts. You can trust him on this. The Tabriz is a great arm and it's headshell should cope perfectly well with properly tightened cart bolts, I would have thought.

Best;

Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

[This message was edited by Mark Ellis-Jones on THURSDAY 31 October 2002 at 18:58.]

...I've just seen what all the detractors on this thread are getting at. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you all assuming that bearing damage can only result from forcing the arm to pivot further than it wants to go (ie, against the end-stops)?. Therefore, if the arm is clipped into its rest, you're covered.

By my interpretation, that's not it at all. Tensioning cart bolts with the arm in situ will involve turning the bolts anti-clockwise, when the operation is viewed from above the turntable. When the bolt threads bite, surely this would exert an anti-clockwise force on the counterweight end of the arm, with the bolt as the centre of rotation. The counterweight end cannot move, as it is fixed to the armboard via the bearings and the arm pillar, so the force is transferred to the bearings, since they are the point of contact between the pillar and the tube. The arm rest cannot help, since (on the Ekos and Ittok LVIII.2) it holds the arm tube at a point some distance from the bearings, and therefore acts as a lateral fulchrum while the force is being applied. On earlier Ittoks, the force would tend to push the arm tube against the open side of the armrest clip, allowing full transmission to the bearing end.

There -- phew. QED. (or er, not)

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

but Mark, the Linn man in the photo doesn't have the stylus guard on, which Linn supply with holes to allow access to the bolts. This is a serious breech of Linn Law. He must be named, shamed, and presumably sacked.

BTW, being the instigator of this thread, I now take it back, because last night after fitting a cart without removing the Ittok for the hundredth time, I think there is a little stickiness in the horizontal swing.
malcolm

thank god for CD.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
but Mark, the Linn man in the photo doesn't have the stylus guard on, which Linn supply with holes to allow access to the bolts. This is a serious breech of Linn Law. He must be named, shamed, and presumably sacked. (

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Blimey, I didn't notice that -- well done! Presumably it was OK since he had cleaned his nails and was wearing kilt, leather tights and crash helmet at the time...

quote:

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BTW, being the instigator of this thread, I now take it back, because last night after fitting a cart without removing the Ittok for the hundredth time, I think there is a little stickiness in the horizontal swing. (

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Well, that really is bad news, and I think you deserve a Snappy for coming back and admitting it. However, there are probably degrees of bearing damage, and if there is any doubt about it, it probably isn't severe.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

seems to play ok, but there is one point where the arm looks like it favours staying as it passes on the horizontal swing test. Fotunately it is not over the record surface part of the arm's travel (at the moment).
The full confession includes the revelation that I was doing this too late at night, leaning over a too high stand, and the bearing did take quite some stress as I fumbled. I'm sure it is a flat-spot in the ball-race. My fault, Linn and the rest of you, were correct but I still think the bearings are too delicate. If it gets worse I'll go for an Aro, just for a change. I rarely see them s/h, but any risks to watch for if I do?

[This message was edited by Rockingdoc on FRIDAY 01 November 2002 at 17:10.]

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Originally posted by Markus:
Reminds me of another piece of nonsense perpetrated by Linn of cleaning a stylus with a piece of freaking sand paper!! Yeah, Right!!


Markus

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Markus - insert glasspaper for sandpaper, and, indeed, yeah, right. Been using the stuff on my Arkiv for years and it works. Glass ain't as hard as a diamond, it never wears out and is hard enough to get crap off the stylus.

Linn know what they are talking about. They make their products, they know the materials. If they say to work in a certain way, that is good enough for me.

Think of the bigger picture. If by insisting on a process that makes their cartridges less user friendly that may put some people off from buying them. They care enough about the product to give this kind of health warning.

Good on them.

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Originally posted by mike lacey:
Linn know what they are talking about. They make their products, they know the materials.

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Mike,

I don't believe Linn make any of their own cartridges.

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:


Mike,

I don't believe Linn make any of their own cartridges.

cheers, Martin

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OK Martin I'm being careless with my postings. Please replace "make" with "research, design, test, refine, and then get approved makers ( I think in Japan ) to constuct in accordance with Linn's criteria" when referring to cartridges!

I think their quality control standards are such that there is ONLY ONE MAN doing the winding for the the new Arkiva!

My main point is that if Linn say something about equipment with their name on it, they are likely to know what they are talking about. We tend not to question suggestions from Salisbury ( cue aah what about.....)

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by mike lacey:
My main point is that if Linn say something about equipment with their name on it, they are likely to know what they are talking about.

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Mike,

ah, sorry, most of my dealings with Linn are with their service department, so it's no wonder I have a different impression to you.

cheers, Martin

Martin

I ain't gonna argue with you! I am still a naive innocent and believe a fair bit of what I am told!

My servicing experience is very limited - have never had my Kabers seen to, have only had my LP12 serviced once before - it is in now, though, with a man I trust. I have had various upgrades over the years. My amps are all Naim.

Mike.