M2Tech Evo - First Impressions

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

Ummmh, maybe you are right but I still feel a Naim's "Evo" would add something extra, Naim's brand would likely pay dividends for instance in build construction, drivers reliability and of course we wouldn't need to mess around with batteries and third psus?

So what would we use to power the Naim "Evo" if it ever happened? Agreed can't see it being a 9v battery, suspect HiCap at least!

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor Jazz:
I figured that I would try a 9v linear supply to power the Evo. When it arrived a powered up the Evo from the supply. It didn't sound as good as it did when used with battery power (Marco at M2Tech informed me that the feedback that they had received would confirm my perception). I also had a problem in that the power supply that I bought had interchangeable plugs and I couldn't get a good connection.

Doctor, would you mind to publish the name of PS. You obviously help a lot of us to save on trials.
After all it failed to deliver on par with batteries so I guess moderators will not delete this message .

Linear supplies are as tricky as anything else. I suspect that the right one would still outperform a battery as batteries are a bit slow in character. Dr Jazz, you could try to bypass the battery with a small electrolytic. Also tricky but the correct value/quality could help snap things up a bit. It could also be that you've stumbled on a tonal combo that works just right for you and that improvements may be more different than anything else. I've aways found MC detailed but a bit glassy. If the battery rounds things a bit, it may be just what's needed.

js, I have NAPSC2 -- it comes with 2-pin connector. Does it fit Evo or should I get an x-over?

Would need to be rebuilt to task and is neither Naim approved nor under warranty.

No x-over available?

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
No x-over available?

No and voltage is also wrong. Not hard stuff but you need a local tech.

As I'm currently using Toslink from iMac to DAC I'm quite interested in trying this device (even though I'm still a bit fuzzy about what it actually does)

Not that the Toslink sounds poor, but because of domestic considerations I need to use a 12-Metre long cable, which I understand would be pushing things a bit using co-ax.

I wonder if, by using a long USB cable, say 4 metres, and thus a shorter co-ax, this would be a better option?

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
As I'm currently using Toslink from iMac to DAC I'm quite interested in trying this device (even though I'm still a bit fuzzy about what it actually does)

Not that the Toslink sounds poor, but because of domestic considerations I need to use a 12-Metre long cable, which I understand would be pushing things a bit using co-ax.

I wonder if, by using a long USB cable, say 4 metres, and thus a shorter co-ax, this would be a better option?

Better move places or rebuild the house...

js and AMA, while I applaud your enthusiasm to find a PSU appropriate to task, I cannot condone any discussion here that involves unapproved modification to a Naim PSU.

You might also wish to clarify the warranty position with M2Tech et al.. should a 3rd party or DIY PSU damage the Hiface and/or anything that may be connected to it.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
As I'm currently using Toslink from iMac to DAC I'm quite interested in trying this device (even though I'm still a bit fuzzy about what it actually does)

Not that the Toslink sounds poor, but because of domestic considerations I need to use a 12-Metre long cable, which I understand would be pushing things a bit using co-ax.

I wonder if, by using a long USB cable, say 4 metres, and thus a shorter co-ax, this would be a better option?

Tony,

Yours is the only place, among quite a few, where I have heard an optical cable sound better than the HiFace/Coax. But I can't say whether the long run was the issue, or the (rather crappy looking) bit of coax that we had to use.

Joe

Sorry Richard. I tried to be clear about warranty etc. and was not going to give specifics. I shall refrain.

Tony, SPdif specs have coax approved for significantly longer runs than tos.

Richard, I'm quite conservative -- as js explained me NAPSC needs serious modifications to power Evo which is not the way to go (for me). I'm still interested what particular PS was not on par with batteries in Doctor Jazz experiments. I hope this question does not breach forum rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
...But I can't say whether the long run was the issue, or the (rather crappy looking) bit of coax that we had to use.

Joe

...but that was my very best bit Joe!

I'm sure it was a factor though, plus having lots of other goodies to listen to we didn't really give the setup much of a listen IMO.

Given that a USB lead's considerably cheaper than a good-quality digital co-ax, it still makes sense in my circumstances to use a longer USB and a shorter co-ax.

js, I'm not convinced SP/DIF specs in this instance have much relevance. I've used my Mac Mini for source in this system (being fed from the same NAS) using a 1-Metre Toslink cable & there really wasn't any difference in sound quality.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor Jazz:
I figured that I would try a 9v linear supply to power the Evo. When it arrived a powered up the Evo from the supply. It didn't sound as good as it did when used with battery power (Marco at M2Tech informed me that the feedback that they had received would confirm my perception). I also had a problem in that the power supply that I bought had interchangeable plugs and I couldn't get a good connection.

Doctor, would you mind to publish the name of PS. You obviously help a lot of us to save on trials.
After all it failed to deliver on par with batteries so I guess moderators will not delete this message .

The power supply that I tried out was from Maplin.

I didn't use it for too long as I was unable to get a secure connection with the interchangeable plug so my PC kept giving me a message saying that the USB device (The Evo) had been disconnected.

I received an email from Keith at Purite Audio yesterday saying that he could supply a second battery without the charger. I guess it might make sense to have two batteries and keep a spare constantly charged.

I don't pretend to understand the theory as to why a battery supply might sound better than a mains PS. It is generally accepted that keeping audio equipment powered up is better. Would this maxim also apply to the Evo I wonder. It is not really an option when using the battery to keep the unit constantly powered up. It would need a change of battery twice every day!

I read on the internet that it was better for the life of a lithium-ion battery (As supplied by Purite Audio with my Evo) to charge it regularly so that it used reduced voltage rather than let it run dry. When it runs dry, the manual for the battery states that a higher charge voltage is used.

There is a clip on YouTube of an Evo being used with a Paul Hynes linear power supply. He has a Naim DAC was well.

The power supply would need to be supplied in 9v 1A form. Problem is that these power supplies cost £180. While I wouldn't necessarily rule this cost out to get the best from my Evo, I would want to know that this PSU was tried and tested and that it brought about a value-for-money improvement.

I suspect that if there is a market demand for a dedicated supply, M2Tech will get to work on it. I have given the link to this thread to keith and I know that he is reading it.

EVO is a clear upgrade on my system (previously HagUSB which was already good). Better separation of instruments, better highs, maybe a more relaxed and natural overall sound.

Keith told me it's better to disconnect the Lithium Ion battery when not in use, and to avoid complete discharge. This is in line with recommendations at:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
They also note that these batteries don't have a "memory", so as I understand it there's no penalty for putting it back on charge after each use.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Linear supplies are as tricky as anything else. I suspect that the right one would still outperform a battery as batteries are a bit slow in character.

Personally, because of the above concerns around battery power expressed by js, a high-quality transformer would be a more expensive but a more satisfactory answer than battery power.

A decent voltage regulator downstream of a "Wall Wart" might be the best solution.

quote:

A decent voltage regulator downstream of a "Wall Wart" might be the best solution.

I doubt it. The quality of bitstream waveform defines the quality of bit-separation at S/PDIF input and has the same importance as the analogue waveform. This is the reason why various transports sound different through reclocking DACs (like nDAC). I believe only superb PS should be used for S/PDIF generator. It should be fast and linear in order to secure that S/PDIF generator produces the clean waverform. It does not need to be powerful though -- it can be NAPSC spec or less.

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO this kind of threads shows there are a lot of Naim users interested in a Naim computer link for the NDAC, I can't understand why Naim ignores the direct connection with PC/MAC . Many audio brands offer an standalone computer link/bridge or a built-in device in their DACs. Naim could use any of the proprietary asynchronous technologies already available... or better they could develop it on their own.

Yes, but what could Naim add to a M2Tech Evo (or similar) except cost of the Naim branding?

Naim have stated (rightly or wrongly) they feel the computer interface shouldn't be in the DAC so if it's external maybe they have nothing they can bring to the existing devices, except the headache of trying to solve problems of compatibility...

eloise

Definitely wrongly. They could have saved a hell of a lot of money for not doing the Ipod/Iphone compactibility which is inferior HiFi and built a proper Asynch USB port. Just look around and you will see a lot of very good USB Dacs e.g Wavelength and Ayre. They are after the consumer money as there plenty of Ipods users. I believe they done it purely out of greed. Asynch software licensing is definitely cheaper than Apple licensing.
Sorry for the rather harsh words but it's caused by frustration. And yes I am an NDac owner but definitely not the other Naim products. The Hiface is good but definite not good enough. Perhaps the Evo can bring the NDac to the level of performance that it is capable. But I am really doubting that as the postings here seems to indicate that a good CD transport is comparable if not better.

Teh

quote:

Perhaps the Evo can bring the NDac to the level of performance that it is capable. But I am really doubting that as the postings here seems to indicate that a good CD transport is comparable if not better.

Teh

To my ears, Evo/nDAC/XPS (J.River Media Center 15) outperforms CDS2/XPS

quote:

Originally posted by tyk263:

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO this kind of threads shows there are a lot of Naim users interested in a Naim computer link for the NDAC, I can't understand why Naim ignores the direct connection with PC/MAC . Many audio brands offer an standalone computer link/bridge or a built-in device in their DACs. Naim could use any of the proprietary asynchronous technologies already available... or better they could develop it on their own.

Yes, but what could Naim add to a M2Tech Evo (or similar) except cost of the Naim branding?

Naim have stated (rightly or wrongly) they feel the computer interface shouldn't be in the DAC so if it's external maybe they have nothing they can bring to the existing devices, except the headache of trying to solve problems of compatibility...

eloise

Definitely wrongly. They could have saved a hell of a lot of money for not doing the Ipod/Iphone compactibility which is inferior HiFi and built a proper Asynch USB port. Just look around and you will see a lot of very good USB Dacs e.g Wavelength and Ayre. They are after the consumer money as there plenty of Ipods users. I believe they done it purely out of greed. Asynch software licensing is definitely cheaper than Apple licensing.
Sorry for the rather harsh words but it's caused by frustration. And yes I am an NDac owner but definitely not the other Naim products. The Hiface is good but definite not good enough. Perhaps the Evo can bring the NDac to the level of performance that it is capable. But I am really doubting that as the postings here seems to indicate that a good CD transport is comparable if not better.

Teh

Perhaps Naim would just prefer to give a known instead of variable source. You're free to use a pc but the entire computer for source profile is one of personal solutions. Ipod is consistent, not connected to another power source and great for portability/guests. It also wasn't an either/or proposition of async vs Ipod as you make it appear. You may not agree but it wasn't greed or lack of consideration. For instance, we have 6 well known software players constantly discussed here, FB,MC,MM,PM,Amarra,Itunes and none sound alike. Add setup of buffers, different PCs and music path configs and it becomes quite variable.

DJ, I bet a CDX2/nDAC/XPS would be an interseting compare.

The Naim nDAC doesn't have a USB or Firewire port to connect a Mac - so what I simply use a hiFace and will probably move to a hiFace EVO. Naim would have to make a more cost effective product than the EVO or one of the many other ways to connect a MAC to the nDAC.

The iPod interface is very useful IMHO and worth including given the number of iPods around.

I see making a product with attractive features sensible rather than greedy. Sure I would have loved a BT APT-X interface a la Chord, but you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you just might find you get what you need.

I think Naim are right to put the computer interface outside the nDAC to optimise its design. The MAC/hiFace/nDAC sounds every bit as good as the CDX2 to me, albeit the presentation is different - I use and enjoy both.

If you want a DAC with an in-built USB interface for your computer there are some very goods around; they are different for the most part from the nDAC because of the way it buffers. There is another excellent buffering DAC, but not going to mention that again as this is Naim's forum. However, Teh you have a great DAC and simply using a hiFace or hiFace EVO will produce excellent results.

CD transports are a different option, not a better one, that some may prefer.

quote:

The power supply that I tried out was from Maplin.

Doctor, thanks for elaborated reply. I'm happy it was not a Paul Hynes PS which gives a hope it may work better than batteries. There is another manufacture of PS which designed specifically for EVO but his name is not welcomed on the forum (though his activity is not much different from Paul Hynes).

quote:

I suspect that if there is a market demand for a dedicated supply, M2Tech will get to work on it.

Doctor, to the best of my knowledge building a high quality power supply is one the most COMPLICATED and EXPENSIVE tasks. If M2Tech is not experienced in this (I don't know) it may take them years before they come up with something on par with existing manufacturers.

I have heard there is a seperate power supply for the new M2Tech Dacs, it would make sense for them to make a linear supply for the EVO,which is absolutely superb btw.

Teh[/QUOTE]Perhaps Naim would just prefer to give a known instead of variable source. You're free to use a pc but the entire computer for source profile is one of personal solutions. Ipod is consistent, not connected to another power source and great for portability/guests. It also wasn't an either/or proposition of async vs Ipod as you make it appear. You may not agree but it wasn't greed or lack of consideration. For instance, we have 6 well known software players constantly discussed here, FB,MC,MM,PM,Amarra,Itunes and none sound alike. Add setup of buffers, different PCs and music path configs and it becomes quite variable.

DJ, I bet a CDX2/nDAC/XPS would be an interseting compare. [/QUOTE]

Sorry JS, I will have to disagree with your assessment. As a dealer it is understandabe that you side with them. Naim explaination for not including a computer USB interface is on sound quality which is a lot of bs. This is what make me annoyed. As an audiophile, the limitation of 16/48 resolution on the Ipod is not my idea of hd music no matter how stable. I rather stick with my CD player. I know they have to make money to survive but please just don't give us that kind of bs. They are also worried about the impact to their server range which imho is highly overpriced.