Aimez-Vous Brahms?
Posted by: herm on 22 October 2002
I guess this one of those things that only happen to classical music lovers. I have quite a bunch of Brahms symphonies - i.e. there's four Brahms symphonies, obviously, and I own various recordings of these. And yet I'm looking for a new set. Don’t know why, but more importantly, don’t know which.
The way it's been for the last couple of years is my favorite Third is with the Vienna Philharmonic, conducted by Guilini. It's big and expansive and pensive at the same time, as often with CMG, but the orchestra truly plays like a pack of demons and everything is right.
The Fourth I listen to most frequently would be Haitink and the Boston Symphony. I just love that creamy Boston horn, and the finale is well judged. Haitink is a master of restraint and release, and it works well here.
The Second I returned to recently is Bernstein and the Vienna Phil. Unlike his other Brahms recordings, this is one without theatrical sweatdrenched climaxes etc, probably because it's the 'sunny' symphony (with some pretty hefty brass thunderclouds, though). Again, the orchestra is just astounding; there's just nothing like the string tutti towards the end of the 3d mvt, with the bows deep in those rich strings while the celli 'strum' the guitar.
Last week I picked up the Brahms set by Karl Böhm and the Vienna PO, recorded in the mid seventies, and it was a disappointment. Böhm made some good recordings in those sunset years (Mozart and Beethoven Piano Cti with Pollini), but these are not among them. Suddenly I understand why a lot of people think Brahms is hard to enjoy. The orchestral lines (elementary in Brahms and Schumann, if you want to hear what's going on) are smudged and the rythms lack definition. It's just one big burring fuzz.
So I'm wondering whether anybody out there has a some recommendations. I'm wondering, for instance, whether Todd and Ross, our two resident Kubelikians, have a Brahms by this conductor and whether it's special. There is a set with the Bavarians on Orfeo which I might just get.
PS: the funny thing is this restlessness only applies to the symphonies. I have been listening to the same Brahms chamber music recordings for 25 years now, and they're still as exciting as the first time (Beaux Arts Trio, Quartetto Italiano / Amadeus / Tokyo).
Well, long story, sorry, but I'm curious about your responses.
Herman
Posted on: 22 October 2002 by Phil Barry
Furtwangler - Music & Arts CD-941, not the EMI recording. Szell - but I haven't heard a good recording. Toscanini.
And why go beyond Symphony #1? :-)
Regards.
Phil
Posted on: 22 October 2002 by herm
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Barry:
And why go beyond Symphony #1? :-)
Goes without saying. It's Beethoven's Tenth.
Herman
Posted on: 23 October 2002 by herm
So let me get this straight. There are exactly three (3) people (incl me) who are sufficiently interested in Brahms the symphonist to contribute on this thread?
1) So I guess the Bruckner party won after all.
2) There's something deeply wrong with you all
3) Please ban me from this forum.
Ross, the Kempe at Munich has been reissued on CD and I'm ordering. I've been checking the Kubelik. I'm interested in characterizations like "lyricism" and "clear textures", though on the other hand I'm rebuffed by stories the Orfeo is very bad soundwise - which is suprising, as orfeo usually is very good. Perhaps not the kind of box I want to order on the net. I'll be in Amsterdam tomorrow, and I'll check the stores.
Herman
4) Do it now. I can't take it any longer. It's not like I'm inviting posts about serial electronic post-Frankfurt ersatz bleep (sorry Jarrett).
Posted on: 23 October 2002 by herm
Nick,
I wasn't talking about you. I know how you feel about 'German' symphonies.
Herman
Posted on: 23 October 2002 by DJH
I can't stand Brahms. For me, the difference between Brahms and Beethoven is like the difference between Wordsworth and Matthew Arnold - the former being one of the greatest poets ever, and the latter tending towards turgid pomposity. I don't even like Brahms' string quartets, which I find precious and fussy.
Posted on: 24 October 2002 by Manni
Hi,
what about Nik. Harnoncourt/Berliner Philharmoniker, Teldec 1997?
I can understand, why some classic-fans dont like Brahms very much. Compared with Dvorak,Tschaikowsky,Schubert and others his symphonies are not very melodious.Brahms was called: der trockene Johannes!!
Manfred Müllers
Posted on: 27 October 2002 by herm
This morning I watched a tv documentary about Anner Bylsma, the cellist and his abiding obsession with the Bach Suites and the unique Stradivarius cello in the Smithsonian in DC.
However, demonstrating the extraordinary power of this Strad (it's a tad larger) he played a tune rising from the deep, and said, "it's so funny, whenever I play this line everyone stops and listens, it doesn’t matter what they’re doing. It's magic."
The tune, obviously, was the opening of the Brahms's first cello sonata.
The notion that Brahms is a dour composer who's only into motivic variation because he can't do melodies is a cliché, not terribly well supported by the fact that Brahms wrote about two hundred original songs (Beethoven wrote but a few), and in fact his instrumental works are stuffed with great melodies, too: the late clarinet sonatas, the violin sonatas, the violin concerto, the double concerto, and indeed the symphonies.
Sure, different than in Tchaikovsky and Dvorak there is a lot of structural underpinning in Brahms, counterpoint and motivic juggling, but on top of it, there's wonderful melodies, some of these spellbindingly long which is the mark of a true master (the great melody in Beethoven 5 slow mvt for example is actually not all that long) like the slow mvt of the third string quartet, the clarinet sonatas, the second violin sonata.
Herman
Posted on: 27 October 2002 by DJH
Herman ; I did feel some remorse after my comments above, and fished out a long neglected CD of Brahms' Lieder (Jessye Norman / Daniel Barenboim), which has given me much enjoyment this weekend (together with several discs of the Hyperion Schubert songs). I'll try to blow the dust of my set (Quartetto Italiano) of his string quartets over the next few days.
Posted on: 27 October 2002 by Phil Barry
o, I don't think the Bruckner claque won, even if there are only 3 of us who like Brahms on the aim forum.
BTW, I got the Toscanini versions on LP last week (the standard RCA, NBCSO disks), and it is GREAT! He's as convincing as Furt, IMO.
I think an appreciation comes only with maturity....:-)
Regards.
Phil
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by Alex S.
I simply adore Brahms. I didn't answer because the 'aimez-vous?' threw me.
Alex
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by --duncan--
Brahms has been described as writing brown music. But like Rembrandt he was a genius with those different shades of brown. Can I put in a plug for possibly the 'brownest' of the lot: The German Requiem. Wonderful if one is feeling mellow with just a hint of self-pity. I just know the classic Klemperer/Philharmonia version. Any other suggestions for a different view on this piece?
duncan
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
I remember hearing an interview a few years ago with Norman Lebrecht who was touting his book 'The Maestro Myth'. He made a comment about there not having been a decent rendition of a Brahms symphony for over 50 years. An over-reaction yes, but I've not heard much live in my concert-going lifetime to disagree. I remember a few years back a friend of mine bemoaning the lack of 'big' Brahms performances. I must admit that I get slightely downheartened when we have to listen with 'fresh' ears to another period or 'period-informed' rendition.
Having said all of that, it doesn't seem to have done any damage to Brahm's reputation - most of the concerts I've been to are packed, pretty much more than any other symphonic composer.
I'm not sure that I can add much to the above lists, I don't have many full sets, but I have performances of Walter, Kleiber, Karajan, Furtwangler (OK I admit I have a full set of these), Abbado and recently Mengelberg (on Vuk's recommendation - very good too). I don't remember hearing any Klemperer, which I probably should considering how well he conducts the the German Requiem.
As for Brahms sounding turgid and pompous - each to their own. Early Brahms certainly sounds large, serious and rugged, but it's not something I'd associate with the later works, and certainly not with the sublime Piano Concerto No 2.
David
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by DJH
Extraordinary the condescension underlying a phrase such as "each to their own".
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH - really no condescension, and no idea why you should think it an English characteristic. Perhaps if I knew your origins I could associate it with chips on shoulders. I certainly don't hear pomposity - Benjamin Britten thought you were right. Each to their own.
David
Posted on: 29 October 2002 by DJH
quote:
Perhaps if I knew your origins I could associate it with chips on shoulders.
See my comments above. Enough said.
Posted on: 30 October 2002 by Todd A
My two favorite cycles are Walter's stereo set on Sony and Toscanini's Philharmonia set on Testament. The approaches are pretty far apart, but both approaches are wonderful. I'd give Walter the edge in the first two, Toscanini the edge in the last two. Surprisingly, my opinion of Furtwangler's EMI set has dimmed somewhat. I still like the 1st and 4th quite a bit, but I find better recordings elsewhere. Celibidache's Munich set is a bit odd; it's both way too slow and strangely satisfying in a Celi sort of way. Only approach it if you like Sergiu. (To answer another question in the thread, Celi's Ein Deutsches Requeim is a great performance. It is long-winded but it works as a sort of anti-Klemperer version. Klemperer's is still better though.)
Also consider Karel Ancerl. Perhaps not the first name in Brahms, but a satisfying one. The Suprahon recording of the 1st (to be re-re-reissued soon as the "Gold" edition) may have some overwhelming bass at times, but the overall thrust of the symphony is quite impressive. I don't believe he recorded a complete cycle.
As for Kubelik: Damnit, I don't have any of his Brahms, either. Considering what he can do for Schumann, I suspect his Brahms should be quite fine, so I'll add it to my list. The last thing I bought by Rafael was an outstanding collection of Czech music recorded in the 40s on Testament. Janacek's Sinfonietta is simply amazing.
Posted on: 30 October 2002 by herm
I can't take it any longer. If no one can tell me what it's like I'm getting the Kubelik Brahms cycle myself - as I was bound to do anyways.
I'll tell you what it's like when I can, Todd.
Ross: I got an Arts Archives trasfer of the Rudolf Kempe, the even-numbered symphonies. I like it. It's very straight-forward and fresh. It's funny how Kempe, who started as a oboist, seems to favor the strings. There's some interesting accents in the string section, though ensemble is far from flawless (which is odd, considering it's his own orchestra).
DJH: did you get to listen to the string quartets? I still think the Italiano is the best recording.
Herman
[This message was edited by herm on THURSDAY 31 October 2002 at 04:04.]
Posted on: 31 October 2002 by Manni
Is it right, that the best performances of Brahm`s symphonies are 40 -50 years old? Are there no current recordings of good quality? What´s about the sound of the old stuff?
Manfred Müllers
Posted on: 31 October 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
A quick look on Amazon shows the individual symphonies come as 1, 2+3 or 4.
So if you could choose only one of these, which is the best to get?
David
Posted on: 31 October 2002 by herm
Hi Jack,
it's good to see you're back. I've been eyeing that Wand set - the Bruckner 8 I got recently has been growing on me - but first I want to get to know the Kubelik. The reason why is I'm hoping it will be an authentically different take on Brahms (i.e. not plain weird different as in Celi). I suspect the Wand is a perfectly fine recording, eminently eligible as a basic in one's collection - but I already have tons of German Brahmses.
I'm attracted to the idea that Kubelik will approach the score with a slightly fleeter foot. That's what I'm hoping for, and I'm not saying anything more, cause then I'm bound to be disappointed.*
Herman
*Actually disappointment is going to be out of the uestion, as I ordered the sixties Juilliard recording of the complete Beethoven Quartets in the same shipment. I thought they'd never put those extraordinary sessions on CD - it's the Juilliard in their best incarnation with the best viola player on the best instrument ever, Raphael Hillyer. These performances are completely different from the great Italiano recordings, and they are equally fabulous. I can hardly wait.
Posted on: 01 November 2002 by Dan H
I started out on the Brahms symphonies quite fortuitously with No. 1 conducted by Jascha Horenstein, which came free with some dreadful magazine series. The performance is to my taste but the CD transfer is abysmal.
No. 4 I first got on vinyl - Szell and the Cleveland Orch. Also have the same version on CD, but it's not as good of course
. No. 4 is the one I come back to most; hard to pin down its mood in words, but like 1 definitely sees the darker side of life.
No. 2: I was given a CD of Sir COlin Davis and Bavarian Radio SO. Adequate, fair recording. Too upbeat for me!
No. 3: Sir Adrian Boult/LSO. Would play it more if the CD sounded better.
Then recently I got the boxed set bug. The Chamber Orch. of Europe under Paavo Berglund did a chamber version quite recently that I saw well-reviewed and looked as though it could be interesting. Has anyone heard it? Anyway, in the end I went for Kurt Sanderling and the Staatskapelle Dresden. Fairly solid and middle of the road all round I think. A bit more edge, or alternatively more lyricism, wouldn't go amiss sometimes.
I'm surprised there aren't more takers for these works: they're some of my favourite symphonies full stop (or, indeed, period).
Posted on: 06 November 2002 by herm
Kubelik's Brahms
This is a recording I can fully recommend. It is, as I expected a Brahms that's a little more songful than most conductors do. Most good Brahms is first and foremost focused on keeping the structures clean and clear, to the detriment of melodies. Keeping the textures clear is a rather tough job with Schumann and Brahms, whose scores were much denser than the Beethoven symphonies, often making for a clogged and dour sound.
The interesting thing of the Kubelik is he clearly works with a traditional big orchestral model and yet there's no clogging. The lines are consistently imagined as sung first and rendered by the orchestra in that shape. If a conductor does this there's the risk you're getting the top line first, and the rest is relegated to accompaniment. No risk with Kubelik. Everything crystal clear. It's a win win performance.
The various divisions of the Bavarian Radio Orchestra are wonderfully chacterized: great string playing from left to right, old fashioned wood winds with a little bit of vibrato, and a brass section that adds great drama to the climaxes in the second and third.
This being a 1983 recording (Orfeo) there's digital glare in the upper strings and flutes, unfortunately.
I guess it's time to check out some more Kubelik, like the Dvorak, which I suspect is a little earlier in his career.
Herman
Posted on: 07 November 2002 by Todd A
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
Also, I know that it is rather "unfashionable" and perhaps not considered very sophisticated to recommend Naxos recordings[.]
Nothing wrong with Naxos recordings or recommendations as far as I'm concerned. Some fine artists record or have recorded for Herr Heymann (Georg Tintner, Antoni Wit, Peter Donohoe, John McCabe, Eteri Andjaparidze) and some truly exceptional titles are available. And they are the best deal around in historical recordings. (Try those three new discs of the Casals / Thibaud / Cortot trio, for instance.) Most important is that one tries new music, which is so much easier when the discs are cheap.
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by ClaudeP
Even though I really like Brahms, I don't find that Symphonies are what he composed best.
However, one of my favorite LPs is The Piano Concerto No. 1, Concertgebouw Orchestra, (Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt) and Alfred Brendel. (Philips 6500 623)
(Sorry if this reply is somewhat off-topic).
