Are they serious ?

Frederik

I think I am an optimist whilst you seem to take on the cares of the world.

Regards

Mick

Nice One Mick!

Well, someone has to, don't they

Fredrik

Frederik

Things have a habit of taking care of themselves, whether you worry about them or not.

I admit I have had a good life and have enjoyed it, which surely is what it is all about.

Regards

Mick

I expect Saddam Hussein enjoyed life until he was stopped from murdering lots of people.

Hope this helps?

Dear Mick,

You (possibly accidentally, but never the less unerringly) have put your finger straight on the difference between people like like yourself and people like me. The optimists, who let things be worried about by others, and the pessimists, who know that unless someone worries about a thing, and tires to act on these concerns, it while never get better on its own. Did child labour just stop, slavery just stop, Fascism just stop? No! Caring scrupulous people lead a debate, and led people into a often short term and very considerable sacrifice, so evils could be over-come. Things really just don't get better without a bit of help from true asnd conscience guided people.

Some in life are of the careless dispossition and can have a sleeping conscience, letting the disasters just carry on, and, as you say, 'have a ggod life,' considering that this is, 'what it is all about.' But that is precisely what allows the evils of the world to grow and be so long in being overturned in the first place.

As things are looking, nowadays, if your view is that of the absolute majority, then I don't think it will take another forty years for life to become intolerable in every aspect in what we euphemistically call the "civilised world."

Yes I am proud to be thought a caring pessimist. It is true I care enough to worry and I really do doubt if the carers of the world can win now! Too few are prepared to get over their comfortable lives and make sacrifices to make the world a better place for all and for the future. Even in small details, which all that most little eople can do, so how can we expect better of our leaders, when they need to be elected. No I disagree with both Blair and Thatcher, but they are the product of a democracy in crisis! There is no party voicing my position today, so I have to hold my nose and vote for the least corrupt. And by corrupt I mean in terms of moral corrution, which is far more serious than a leagl determination of the word.

Fredrik

Fredrik

I leave caring to those more knowledgeable than me. I have enough to worry about looking after Mrs Mick and myself without worrying about everything and everyone else.

I suppose the acid test is that when we both expire from this mortal earth and go through the pearly gates, which one of us will have lived the happier life.

We have a world population of a few billion and I am like a single blade of grass in an endless field. I will change nothing except my own circumstance and one of lifes golden rules is not to try to control the uncontrollable for that is truely spitting in the wind.

Therefore my world revolves around myself and mainly my friends and I think I am and they are better off for it. Paradoxically if everyone else did the same, then the entire world would be a better place as each one of us improves our own situation.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Fredrik

[...].

Therefore my world revolves around myself [...]. Paradoxically if everyone else did the same, then the entire world would be a better place as each one of us improves our own situation.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

What you wrot before what I have quoted above is clearly an unargueable statement of fact, but what I have quoted does not really bear much scrutiny! For surely the slave owners, child labour masters and Fascist, not to mention the likes of Saddam, the frightful Yugoslav War Criminals, those Suicide bombers and other terrorists, or anyone else making themselves happy while treading down on other less powerful individuals can all be said to be improving there own lot, even if one might consider that their actions were and are morally and legally wrong. To simply say that I am having a fine life and that is good enough, is morally a bankrupt possition. Mind, it does give the conscience a rest, I will agree, and that lifts a burden from anyone even if they are mainly good.

Your thesis only works if everyone is a saint, and is thus just as blighted to its core as the notion that communism could work. For what is good for me is most certainly not good, as a rule, for everyone else, but only damaging to a varying degree to others. What is essential is not to become, "a hair-shirt Calvinist" morally, but to consider, as I wrote above, the consequenses of one's actions. Do I fly to my overseas destination or ship, or even not go at all? This might be a reasonable line concerning a luxury visit overseas. I personally am not prepared to use a flight given that shipping is far more ecologically sound. I run a car, but drive very few miles. It is not total denial, but a reasoned approach I am considering.

In the same way I do not accept very much of the conventional wisdom concerning modern society, especially where this pertains to the survival of the fittest. Surely humans define themselves from the animals by the very fact that they show humain as well as animal traits. "Altroism alongside the sex drive," and not merely the law of the jungle which actually characterises non-human life forms. We have the choice to conceptually control our own actions. A meritocracy is fine so long as it moderated by a liberal conscience over the less able. A pure Capitalistic system has never been attempted, as it would result to a return to slavery, where the owners of the productive facility would only move one stage further to owning the work-force. I fear that in many ways big and small this IS the way things are moving.

Even small actions add up. No single man overthrew Fascism, but millions and millions. Millions ultimately died in the fight, for billions to have a better life. Each sacrifice was of itself neither here nor there, and thus insignificant, but the cummulative effect was a success. Each generation throws up its crisis. Each generation throws up the challenge of making individual, and effectively, viewed individually, insignificant sacrifices, so the world is left in the best state we can for subsequent generetions. This is where I think we are at a turning point, because for the first time we have the chance to destroy (at least since the Atom Bomb) the planet, and we have a generetion coming along that far from worrying about the bigger picture cannot even be bothered to walk single file past an old age pensioner, so they don't have to tangle with the busses in the bus lane, and you tell me not to worry about it? There is no hope left, Dear Mick, and when people like you who should be setting an example, can't even say that you are the centre of your Universe I am left thinking that there is not only no hope from the plebian element, but that the parician element has lost the will to lead. That is our crisis!

Fredrik

Fredrik

I have to say, you worry too much. I also think you are better suited to a bygone age rather than this "chronium plated", world in which we now live.

I see opportunities in this world and take them whereas you see problems and seem overcome with remorse. Which one of us is right is difficult to say, but as sure as eggs are eggs, I fit into this world much better than you because I go with its flow whilst you struggle against its tide.

If you had a son, which way would you advise him to go. My advice is go for it and live well and live happy. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do not set out to harm anyone else.

Personal ambition has taken man from the caves to the modern house with all of its creature comforts and provided that ambition benefits society as well as the individual, then all is well.

I shall stay as I am.

Regards

Mick

Fredrik, with all due respect, that is your crisis.

Regards
Jim

Dear Mick,

May I say right out, that I consider this one of the best debates i have had in a while and thank you especially for taking the debate an not me as the starting point. Thanks and and thanks very much! Personally I hope you don't change, as it takes alsorts. We are at opposite poles, conditioned by life's experience differently, and as I am sure you would concede, neither of us likely to me a big difference! Do I care that I certainly will not, well no, because that would mean me being famous! But I will just answer your points, if you will forgive that...

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Fredrik

I have to say, you worry too much. I also think you are better suited to a bygone age rather than this "chronium plated", world in which we now live. [Ture, but what can I do about being me. I don't think I could change much, and I'd have to want to for a start!].

I see opportunities in this world and take them whereas you see problems and seem overcome with remorse. Which one of us is right is difficult to say, but as sure as eggs are eggs, I fit into this world much better than you because I go with its flow whilst you struggle against its tide.
[This is surely true. I know it which is why I say I wish I had had my life at a time when I certainly would have been old enough to be involved in the fight against Fascism].

If you had a son, which way would you advise him to go. My advice is go for it and live well and live happy. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do not set out to harm anyone else. [I could with my outlook, never conceive of bring a familly into it. My brother has two and I had a very boozy evening with him a couple of years ago and left him wondering if he had done right. To be honest I wish my parent had known about protection, and saved me a very pessimistic view, from about the age of eight when I discovered about the MAD plan, and the Atom bomb! How many eight year olds have sleepless nights about the defense of our country?].

Personal ambition has taken man from the caves to the modern house with all of its creature comforts and provided that ambition benefits society as well as the individual, then all is well. {i am now devoid of ambition, whereas once I did have quite a bit, but seriously always lacked enough to be convincing, and the gift of the gab is important nowadays.].

I shall stay as I am.

Regards

Mick

We have had a debate that both depressed and lifted me. I am surely now part of the plebian and you quite obviously part of the modern patrician section of society. Unfortunately I was reared as part of the patrician, but recovering that position is quite impossible in modern Britain. No amount of hard work will get your average man anything more than tired. As soon as your manager knows you could wipe the floor with him (or her) in terms of common sense, reasoned arguement, ideas and sensible initiative you become an enemy to be squashed at the every opprotunity, rather than a resource. That is modern Britain: Dog eat (smaller less powerful) dog, and to be honest, among all the rest, I don't like it! Just in case you might wonder where I managed to get the kit, well, I sold my beautifull double-bass for the 52 (arthritis in my left hand ruined the left hand technique) and the CDS2 was a gift from my Norwegian Grandmother weeks before she died. Otherwise I'd be still on a Nait 3 etc!

The best thing I did was get those two classic pieces! And some second hand SBLs and new 200, for they have been a messenger of musical joy; yes the best thing I ever did!

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:

You where the first person I met via an HiFi forum with the offer ( to a complete stranger ) of an evening listening to your kit.

Good on ya, Mick.

Then you have completely missed the point Tarquin. Mick's life is all about ownership and the flaunting of the same. Without which has nothing to offer the world. His dismissal of Fredrik's concerns are simply typical of this dull breed.

One almost wishes that one had a smidgin of faith so that one could better imagine his reception at his beckoning "Pearly Gates". But alas I am denied that small satisfaction.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Lawson:
Fredrik, with all due respect, that is your crisis.

Regards
Jim

Actually Jim, whilst it may well be my crisis, because I have the vision to see, it your's, Mick's and, frankly, the whole world's crisis as well, which is something no one with the brains to conceive the problem should be entirely easy about!

Fredrik

So this "Dull breed" has you wishing you could better imagine his reception at his beckoning "Pearly Gates"?

Fredrik

Now you are sounding like Tom Cruise....
"You don't know about the crisis. I do!"

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Lawson:
Fredrik

Now you are sounding like Tom Cruise....
"You don't know about the crisis. I do!"

Jim

Dear Jim,

You are going to have to do better than that. Tom Who? What is his trade that gives him a weight of authority on this point? Should I have have heard of him? Is he someone important - a modern Phylosopher, or Politician, or Scientist perhaps? What is the context of his quote concerning this issue?

Please do inform as I think i have missed something here!

Fredrik

"You are going to have to do better than that."

Apparently not.

Cheers
Jim

Dear Jim,

Apparently not!

Well never mind, so long as he is not some air head media personality, then it does not matter. It would be sad if the debate reduced to quotes from people merely hyped as something by the media, would it not?

Fredrik

Now we're getting somewhere!
Tell me of who's opinons/quotes matter. After your past post

"it may well be my crisis, because I have the vision to see...something no one with the brains to conceive the problem should be entirely easy about!"

the vision to see what? this smacks of elitism.

Jim

Dear jim,

It's bed time! Opinions that matter. Hey Ho. How about logically and conscientiously wrought ones from serious people who don't require to be elected with populist views every so often. Often, but by no means always people who get into important jobs by intelectual capacity often hold valuable and true opinions, however uncomfortable. Others might be campaigners, who are lucky not to be so tied down by drudge jobs that they have time to develope, sometimes for most a lifetime, position on important issues? Ex-politicians, who no longer have to produce appealing propositions to an electorate and can sometimes lead a debate? Actually almost anyone not in it for the exposure and notoriety of self promotion.

Perhaps it would be easier to find a list of people or types I find less than illuminating?

Actors, Pop-stars, News-room pundits, Most politicians. A higher proportion of American politicians. Any politician in governement, not subject to elections, actually! If you can believe very few elected politicians, I think you believe non who are not! I don't know that this can go anywhere. If you don't believe me, or want to engage in direct debate, then I suspect that who I find credible is pointless any way, so maybe that is the time to draw the line...

Fredrik

"Actors, Pop-stars, News-room pundits, Most politicians. A higher proportion of American politicians. Any politician in government."

You have drawn the line and your prejudice is duly noted.

Why you would dismiss those who are in it for " the exposure and notoriety of self promotion" is beyond me. Certainly you promote yourself and your own ideals by posting here.



Jim

Final Thought,

Dear Jim,

If it is elitist to use what capacity one has to work through ideas, then I am an unashamed elitist. If it elitist to remain aware of events about us, likewise.

If one perceives a crisis in the direction the old liberal democracies are taking, and relating this in terms that are easily understood by people, then that is me. If you don't like it, then just bury your head in sand and forget you ever came across my thoughts. That will mean there is one person less prepared to do anything about about and that will bring the erternal doom down that bit more certainly, and sooner, because for yourself there must be thousands just like you.

Why am I pessimist? Because of people like you who seem not to engage in debate, but enjoy silly riddles! Don't go for diversions, just do somethings, along the lines I have posted on the last two pages.

If you think that that is patronising take as it was meant, a cautionary thought from a man truely worried by the way Western Civilisation is going. In fact it needs to be healthy and strong, scrupulous, and fair if this world is not to descend in chaos over the years to come: Ecological, Terroristic, and also Financial.

Now there is a thought. All that is powering the long UK boom is house prices! When that curtails, we shall see how successful this gov't looks then? Because the baloon is so big, if it bursts rather than deflates slowly, we shall have a depression here that lasts longer than any yet seen.

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Lawson:

[...]. Any politician in government.

You have drawn the line and your prejudice is duly noted.

Why you would dismiss those who are in it for " the exposure and notoriety of self promotion" is beyond me. Certainly you promote yourself and your own ideals by posting here.

Jim

Actually Jim,

Firstly, you owe me an apology for the above miss-quote. This has a very different meaning to what I wrote, and should have run: "Any politician in governement, not elected." A rather serious miss-representation of what I originally wrote I am sure you will agree.

Whether you like it or not, I don't suppose many of those in politically important jobs spend much time perusing my views (or yours!) here, so it hardly amounts to self promotion. But to do what you have just done is at least the pot calling the kettle black!

But you can feel safe that you can be as rude as you like behind my back because you are too childish in you style for me to want ot post a reply to you again. Miss-representation, and hypocrasy all in one post Dear Jim! Whatever next, hey!

Yours sincerely, Fredrik

"Actors, Pop-stars, News-room pundits, Most politicians. A higher proportion of American politicians. Any politician in governement, not subject to elections, actually! " Sorry for the misquote.

You have drawn the line and again your prejudice is duly noted. Your self promotion continues.

Jim

Dear Jim,

Apology accepted. In terms of self npromotion, I suspect it is pretty low powered. I doubt if there are more than you and me on the case! But now you have apologised, I can assure you that to continue would only be to repeat, so if you want, have a look at a proper, robust yes, but proper debate with Mick on the previously page. I may not like his views, but I respect the way they are delivered, in that they are honest and without personal unpleasantness. You could learn something from him I am sure!

Sincerely, Fredrik

Jim,

Indeed you could.

The use of personal invective is something I see all too often on internet fora as a deflection against one's own inability to engage in debate.

I suppose just about anyone expressing a point of view could be accused of "self promotion." All it takes is to ask "what does the person hope to gain for themselves by expressing such a (or any) point of view?"

The answer is that some of us enjoy debate as it allows us to learn from others and possibly even reconsider our own viewpoint. I hereby offer my own viewpoint to such scrutiny from which I may learn something new.