Are they serious ?

A fascinating thread to read through; very interesting and thought provoking - thank you all, especially Mick and Fredrik.

Fredrik, I'd have to say I agree with pretty much everything you say.

I can also see Mick's points as well.

It appears to me, even here in the outer wilderness of Australia *joke* that similar attitudes are prevailing re the ecoonomic imperatives to 'survive' 'get ahead' brought about by a deregulated free market economy, where people have no sense of job security or loyalty anymore, and one is expected to be a 'little entrepenuer' at every turn, as Unions are stifled/outlawed, & individual wage/condition bargaining is brought in.

All well and good on the surface, however whichever way one looks at it, the system is geared against one being anything other that somewhat exploited if one wishes to find employment with anyone other than oneself.

Presently, the conservative (Liberal) party is in power here, and for the first time in decades, has an almost unprecedented majority in both the house of representatives AND the senate.

Thus, for this electoral term at least, we have what is the equivalent of an elected dictatorship. I note under the proposed industrial relations 'reforms' that such things as lunch and tea breaks will need to be individually 'negotiated' when the terms of negotiation basically are " this is what we're offering, and if you don't like it, piss off, as there's others waiting at the door for work"

Weekend work now no longer attracts any sort of penalty rates for the majority of workers, and we wonder why there is a breakdown of marriages and relationships generally? Again, it's do the work, with no financial recompense, loose family time, and if your marriage suffers, tough - as long as the shareholders make a profit, who cares?

Is it any wonder the qualities you mention of people pushing past each other, being rude etc in public are now so evident?

Economic rationalism drives a dog eat dog attitude, a survival of the fittest "I'm alright Jack, up yours" society, and this IMHO is what society at large is beginning to reap.

The rich will get richer, no doubt, but as I said earlier, I also belive this sort of society is a ripe breading ground for terrorists, and then we ALL pay the price for rampant greed and capitilism.

History teaches us the the French and Russian revolutions where as much about food on the plate as political and social injustice.

Perhaps the 'war' being waged on the Western world by the 'third world' countries Islamic/fundamentalist 'spokespeople/terrorists' is the modern day equivalent.

Personally, unless people and by that I mean humankind, learn to share more, and give and take, rather than the present 'up yours' attitude, the world social situation is going to get a lot worse IMHO. Either that, or it'll be last man standing...

Best Regards

John...

John

Yes this has been an interesting debate and I also have to thank Fredrik for attacking the argument and not the person.

I have often felt that those with Fredriks viewpoint have a high point count on compassion and decency but actually in real life provide little benefit to those that they seek to support.

The "uncaring" go getters who are obviously out for number one actually do more to help the underpriveledged by creating jobs for them. The high income earners spend their money on anything from taxis to meals in restaurants and even 2nd or 3rd houses need tradesmen to build or renovate them. It is the earning and circulating of money that actually creates jobs and wealth.

I suppose my argument boils down to this, who would you admire most, a man who drives a taxi making a modest living or a man who borrows a bank loan to buy several taxis and pays some other driver to drive them. It is all about the choice of taking it easy or pushing yourself in order to make life more comfortable.

Regards

Mick

Let us take the example of private hospitals and ambitious doctors offering medical services on demand only to those who can afford it. Let's call it "queue jumping".

They use staff trained by the national health service (of the country concerned) at tax-payers expense. But offer no training for medical staff themselves. The doctors/consultants/surgeons concerned may even have to lengthen their public service waiting lists because of their participation in private medical services. Thus depriving public health service time for those unable to afford private medical services.

Is that pushing "oneself to be comfortable" or a form of parasitism on society?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I suppose my argument boils down to this, who would you admire most, a man who drives a taxi making a modest living or a man who borrows a bank loan to buy several taxis and pays some other driver to drive them. It is all about the choice of taking it easy or pushing yourself in order to make life more comfortable.

Someone being rich enough or well-connected enough to get a loan to buy several taxis does not, in itself, inspire admiration in me.

Jeremy

It is the rich and well connected as you call them who generate wealth and raise standards. If it were not for them, we would be living like peasants under the old Russian regieme where fairness and equality was supposed to generate a fairer system.

They saw the error of their ways and the young and energetic are moving ahead, drastically improving things for themselves and their children.

Fortunately the free market reigns in GB and things get done.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Jeremy

It is the rich and well connected as you call them who generate wealth and raise standards. If it were not for them, we would be living like peasants under the old Russian regieme where fairness and equality was supposed to generate a fairer system.

[...].

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

Unfortunately you did not specify which Old Russian Regime. Initital I read this as under the Tzars! But they or the Communists both make the same point I suspect.

What is wrong nowadays, is that it is getting harder for the little un-connected and not-rich man to ever get out of the trap of working for others, who increasingly have only got there because of a helping hand at the start. This is a sort of selection process, which inevitably cuts out a large part of the talent pool, and must have long term implication for the competitiveness of our economy.

My position is quite odd, in that both my Norwegian familly and my Britsh one are rather well to do, but due to my father loosing his business, when I was eighteen, and Norwegian inheritance law, I have been left with no advantages in the way that would have given me the leg up. So I see this from both sides of the fence! Would you have called me one of the undeserving poor if I had inherited an fifth of my late Grandmother's estate of six years ago about 7.5 million GBP? I suspect not, yet I am that person, but not wealthy because of an impending law case which was averted by my brother and I being written out of the will only weeks before my Grandmother's demise. Yes I would have employed people. I have at one stage in any case, and so I see that from two sides as well.

What disadvantage I have is that I really was brought up with old fashioned (patrician if you like) views of "caring for one's employees." Old fashioned as particularly re-inforced when I see it from the thick end of the stick, as it were. So I could be seen as a bleeding heart liberal, or someone bitter. Neither is the case, for in truth all I want to see is fair play. I know that is not the way of the world nowadays, and at my age I think it unlikely I can change much. Do I become a serious Socialist? I think not, somehow! Or perhaps think the rat race is splendid, because I am on the rough end of it? Equally not!

I think the balance is about right in some countries, and yes the Scandinavian Countries have it better than the UK. [No. Living there is not an option!]. But we are loosing the balance in the UK and the poor are getting relatively poorer, which cannot be a good thing. I can tell you that half of my take home goes on rent, council tax and water rate, all fixed of course and not something one can economise on. Is that right? Who is to say, but certainly adding the element of insecurity viz-a-viz the actual safety of ones continued employement is something that is worrying on a daily basis. No job, no house, no possibility of getting out of the mess...

Please don't right off the poor: Like any section of society they contain useless cases, inteligence, thoughtfulness, carelfulness, greddiness, and so on. There is no genetic disposition that makes the well off or well connected (or once well connected!) any better than any other section of society. We all come into the world the same way, and we all meet the same fate. No one is inherently better than anyone else, and the only way one can demonstrate one's goodness or otherwise is to behave well in life, and excercise the consciense!

My two pennies worth! Fredrik

Point taken.

Regards
Jim

Fredrik

Please understand, I do not dislike the poor but more that I am surprised at their lack of drive and ambition to get themselves out of the hole they are in.

Regards

Mick

Dear mick,

I reckon that I certainly am not much of a typical representitve of anything, but for sure I can speak from the position of being poor! It is damned hard to get out of the rut. Working at it for twnty plus years, and unsuccessfully at that, has worn me out mentally and physically. I even saved enough to finance A-levels and get into Uni reading Civil Engineering, having got Maths , Physics and Electronics at A-level. The finances and my confidence colapsed at Uni. I dropped out and was homeless for three weeks, even though had a job during the period. It is not so easy to crawl up the first rung now in the UK. I guess that is why I am so much a pessimist! I gave everything to that bid. I am not thick. Over the time I have applied for enough good jobs to fill fifty careers. I cannot speak for those who don't try, but without an element of help, or good luck, it is easy enough to find the first step insumountable. Maybe non-comprehension is understandable. I certainly see how it is. My dear Aunt, who lives in the Bahamas, except for three months a years in Norway, spent 17K USD on having her yatch engines replaced, and surprise, surprise, she does not get it either.

It is just a different world. I am not going to suggest every poor person has my single minded nature to try to claw themselves out of the ditch, but even given a vision and a certain character, it is not so easy!


All I would love is the chance to show I can do what I know I can do! failure evntually becomes a sort of self-fullfilling prophesy.

Sincerely, Fredrik

quote:

I suppose my argument boils down to this, who would you admire most, a man who drives a taxi making a modest living or a man who borrows a bank loan to buy several taxis and pays some other driver to drive them. It is all about the choice of taking it easy or pushing yourself in order to make life more comfortable.

Nice one Mick! I'm glad you picked this example. The only reason why I'm still in the taxi business after my first year of teaching ended with a contract of the same duration is because the owner of the firm for which I work offered self-employment to a number of drivers including myself five years ago. He also stated that upon his retirement (now due) he'd allow those who were renting taxis from him to become owner-drivers benefitting from the trade built up by him and his company. As a single unit within such a co-operative firm I stand t make a decent living thanks very much!

Meanwhile other companies have been established in our town and their owners are feeling the pressures of keeping both drivers and business, including one guy who started his own firm on the back of his earnings and customers, working for us initially.

He has his new Empire for sure, but financially he's no better off than when he worked under the same umbrella as me for the reasons I've outlined above.

If only everyone were motivated just by the need just to earn a decent living...

My ambition in this trade is to become an owner-driver and partner in an already established and successful business, and not to build my own silly little empire for its own sake.

The VAT laws do fortunately provide a strong financial disincentive to forming big taxi companies that employ wage slaves. However, some guys still go down the Empire route because they are driven by Power in a small community, ahead of Money...

As an aside, Hackney Carriage numbers in our area are not restricted unlike elsewhere, but fare prices are nevertheless capped as is the case across the UK. Like most of the commercial world there needs to exist some form of regulation and control else one guy ends up owning the lot - often not for wealth but for power. This does not benefit the consumer at all as ultimately the competition is either eaten or otherwise destroyed.

Capitalism is the only workable economic system, but it needs to have appropriate checks and balances in place to prevent monopoly that leads to the exact same breed of totalitarianism as with communism.

Mick,
Re the post of mine you answered: I don't object to people having opportunities such as the one you described. I also accept that it's currently impossible for society to give everyone the same opportunities, no matter how desirable it would be. My point was partly that not everyone has that opportunity.

Also I don't object, in principle, to what I call capitalism with a small "c", as I did in my youth. I no longer believe that our capitalist system is inherently inefficient and unstable, as I did in until much more recently. My only objection to capitalism is when it allows profiteering by people who accumulate wealth rather than create it - such as those who have made fortunes by exploiting the housing boom.

However, I do object to the Thatcherite philosophy of Capitalism [with a capital "C"], in which it is supposed that market forces, if left to themselves, will miraculously create an efficient, prosperous and just society. Even though I have realised that capitalism is not just acceptable but necessary, I have not abandoned my socialist values in any way: I simply see it as society's job to tame the beast of market forces to direct them in ways that encourage people to create wealth rather than accumulate it [Thatcherism mistakes the latter for the former] and to use that wealth for the benefit of the many, not the few.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Please understand, I do not dislike the poor but more that I am surprised at their lack of drive and ambition to get themselves out of the hole they are in.

Many of the poor are not lacking in drive but in ability. I believe that society exists for all of us, not just the talented. Also, from a purely practical point of view, while it is extremely difficult to prove a causal link there is, unless I am mistaken, a strong positive correlation between crime rates and the unequal distribution of wealth in a society.

Others are suffering from chronic depression, as I am, or other mental illness - often going undiagnosed for years or being inedequately treated. This point is a topic in itself: there aren't enough psychologists to go round and there never could be but IMO there are ways to sidestep this problem, which are being ignored.

I have spent years desperately unhappy, deeply frustrated and sometimes suicidal about being unsuccessful at university, in finding a career and in life. I never gave up desperately wanting to be successful, and wanting to do what it took to be successful, and if this kind of desperation could magically translate into drive it would have done. But I lacked what it took to get from one to other. I didn't know what was missing, and nobody seemed able to tell me.

For some people, antidepressants and/or congitive therapy help. I was not one of them - antidepressants were at best a palliative and some have had fairly serious side effects. For example, after taking just one Effexor tablet I had to stay in bed for three days (and much of the following two or three days) because I became so weak. I had to crawl to the bathroom on all fours, and if I tried to stand up for more than a couple of seconds I would start to black out. No doubt others have had similar experiences either with prescription antidepressants or through trying to counter their undiagnosed depression with alcohol or illegal drugs. This kind of life is not the easy way out - it's hell. And the worst thing about it is that those who never stop trying are the ones who are least likely to get the help they need. If you're depressed, you're not supposed to turn up to your interview with the Benefits Agency doctor on time, clean, shaved and tidy or try to focus on all the ways in which you're succeeding to keep going rather than the ways in which you're failing. As a result I was without any state benefit or NI Contributions [except free prescriptions] from mid 2000 to late 2002 because the Benefits Agency doctor (who I believe was just a GP rather than an expert on depression) decided I was not depressed. And I can't help thinking that the reason why I had to wait nearly one and a half years to see one therapist may have been that I was deemed low priority because I didn't look or sound depressed enough.

Luckily for me, by the end of last year I was finally on the right track - forgetting about antidepressants and the kind of cognitive therapy that is usually used in cases such as mine and concentrating on exercise, dietary change, vitamins and nutritional supplements, self hynosis CDs and (strangely enough)sports psychology. I seriously believe that by the end of this year I'll be ready, belatedly, to resume my life - if I can crack this insomnia thing...

Anyway, the point of all this was not to whine about how unfair life has been to me but to illustrate that everyone has a story, and that being a jobless loser isn't the easy option - it's the toughest and most painful option there is for anyone who has the slightest regard for themselves and for the society in which they live - if only perhaps because sometimes it's the only option.

God, I'm going to regret this post tomorrow - later today - I'll probably come back and delete it sometime...

Jeremy don't delete it. As you say, there is a story behind every person.

Mr Parry, Do you have any idea what it is like,not just to be bought up as a child in poverty,but to suffer on top of that parental abuse both physical and emotional plus what ever abuse those at school etc throw at you?

Agreed there are lazy Bastards that do nothing and scrounge i know loads,there are also those that have suffered awful treatment at the hands of those that should love and care for them,this type of poverty can not be overcome by getting on your bike,it leaves deep wounds that hinder every moment of your life,and it gets worse as you get older.

And a tip,if you have done alright in life own a few houses bring up your children well.
Have the dignity to be modest about it.

I keep wondering whether Sir Michael was asked to leave, or was pushed? Given his stated attitude to his "inferiors" his management techniques must have stunk, even by Post Office standards.

I've known a few managers and one managing director who suffered the severe handicap of being unable to communicate with their "lower orders". Perfectly at home with their Konservative social equals they became completely tongue-tied at work.

I can almost imagine his present task being to browbeat single mothers on social security out of legitimate insurance pay-outs. But then I'm far too cynical!

quote:

Originally posted by KRO:
And a tip,if you have done alright in life own a few houses bring up your children well.

Have the dignity to be modest about it.

...because if you don't, people might well start tarring you with the same brush as Harry Enfield's "considerably richer than you!" label, innit, as Fritz'd say.

For each house a landlord owns, that's another direct impact on someone else not being able to buy a house for themselves.

Not all poor people are lazy; some are unable to work due to disability. There's a big difference. It's not all down to lazyitis. Personally I too resent having to fork out for layabout career dole scroungers, but you have to be careful.

As for house prices in the UK - yep, a total sick joke; why each additional house after the main one isn't taxed at a multiple, e.g., 2nd house = 2x all rates and taxes, 3rd, 3x and so on and so on, is beyond me.

This lesaiz faire (can't remember the spelling!) attitude is decimating country villages and towns, where local residents can't get decent food or local papers etc because the only time a town's booming is in the weekend, when the richo chelsea tractor brigade arrive like a plague of locusts. Dorset and Devon in particular are fairly bad in this respect.

As for me, I earn a very good wage by Devon standards. As for buying a house, well, if my employer tripled my salary and the SLC wrote off my student debt (due to MY disability I couldn't get a summer job despite applying to over 40 companies), I might be able to be a prowd householder myself.

As it stands, since prices are so far out of whack, I'm quite glad I didn't try and buy on the upwards spiral, as what comes up will come down, and down, and down.

KRP

You wrote 3 paragraphs so I will give you 3 answers.

Mr Parry, Do you have any idea what it is like,not just to be bought up as a child in poverty,but to suffer on top of that parental abuse both physical and emotional plus what ever abuse those at school etc throw at you?
-------------------------------------------------------

It may surprise you to know that I nearly died of an illness at the age of 5 because of infection from a broken sewage pipe that ran through our two up and two down terrace which we shares with another faimily. They live upstairs and we lived downstairs and we all shared the loo in the back yard. I grew up in Plymouth which was heavily bombed and resulted in a housing shortage. So my early life was pretty grim.
-------------------------------------------------------
You then said
Agreed there are lazy Bastards that do nothing and scrounge i know loads,there are also those that have suffered awful treatment at the hands of those that should love and care for them,this type of poverty can not be overcome by getting on your bike,it leaves deep wounds that hinder every moment of your life,and it gets worse as you get older.
-------------------------------------------------------

I know little about this sort of thing, however there is always the old adage of dust yourelf down etc. Your past treatment is no excuse for how you live your life in the future.
-------------------------------------------------------

You then said
And a tip,if you have done alright in life own a few houses bring up your children well.
Have the dignity to be modest about it.
-------------------------------------------------------

I am not boasting, I could have had more if I had pushed myself a bit harder, so in actual fact I regard myself a bit of a dipstick in that particular field.

The truth is simple......we are all the architechs of our our fortunes and there are no excuses for not achieving what you consider to be a sensible goal.

Regards

Mick

quote:

as what comes up will come down, and down, and down.

Dom,


Dream on - we ALL need a BIT of hope. But even last time, the crash didn't halve prices, so I wouldn't bank on a significant drop, if any.


Nime,

The fact that you have made unkind, personal remarks about another forum member, dosen't per se particularly bother me - I've participated in much worse on this forum in the past. I doubt whether they bother the targetted member at all. But given the recent flurry of genteel comments about how good Adam's moderation has been, and how nice this forum has become without the personal insults, I imagine there are a lot of other people who are upset by your remarks.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

The truth is simple......we are all the architechs of our our fortunes and there are no excuses for not achieving what you consider to be a sensible goal.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

This is going very well... Almost nothing nasty, just a good slogging match of a debate! Splendid!

The only thing is that I don't agree that we really are true architects of our own fortines. Mostly that is down to talent, connection and in some cases the damnedest good luck! Unless, of course what you mean is that the goals for an unfortunate or unlucky person should be that much lower than others! The paradox is that I see this all too clearly, having seen opportunity after opportunity just pass me, just out of reach, and yet with slightly different timing and circumstances I would without doubt be in business on my own account now.

Let me say I see the analogy with life as this. If you consider life a great ocean, I am a little oarseman, in a little boat, subject to the winds and currents. The best anyone can do is aim their boat in the right direction and throw their heart into the rowing. If on the otherhand you are well connected (a ship owner in this instance) then you ask your Captain to direct his (your) crew to sail this powerful ship in that same direction. Quite often a lot less work is involved in success and a shipwreck very much less likely, however rough the voyage. Obviously all sizes of vessels are involved in lives voyage.

So yes, even given good will and a solid sense of direction the opportunities are certainly constrained, and increasingly so in UK today, by circumstance of birth and complete luck. Though I do quite see that anyone CAN point their metaphorical boat in the WRONG direction! Or be a lazy devil and not bother to aim or even row, if you see what I mean, and of course some of these get rescued by the system paid for by all the indivuals in their boats intaxation. But that is part of any system that aim to save the completely helpless. We wouldn't have any other way would we?

Sincerely, Fredrik

Nice analogy Fred, but...

[very silly point]

what if the ship was the Titanic...?

[/very silly point]

Dear Jon,

That works. The titanic was an example of the folly of pride on the part of the ship owner, who in that case ceratinly was well enough connected. Too much speed, albeit in the right direction. The trouble is that very powerful people can really hurt thousands in their own downfall. Think of Robert Maxwell...

Fred

PS: For some silly reason I am in terribly good humour. Can't last you know. I'll be back where I was on Saturday by the weekend. But I am enjoying it while it lasts!

Phew! Lucky you are in such good spirits, Fred - I thought you were going to have a go at me!

Cheers,

Jon

Dear Jon,

No chance, that I'd, pick on you, or anyone else again come to that. I did it three weeks ago and felt terrible about it for days even though I did apologise. No, new leaf for Freddy. No more Mr Nasty! It was rare enough, but it did happen more often than the blue moon. Anyway Ithought you were agreeing with me by testing the analogy!

The only thing I might do, without really realising it is be a bit sarcastic, in "With due respect sir, I disagree," which everyone knows translates as, "You plonker, you're talking through your posterior!" For which I realise it afterwards, and sometimes it needs sorrting out...

Fredrik.

Fred,

I think you are one of a very few select people here that can get away with making

quote:

You plonker, you're talking through your posterior!

seem like eloquent conjecture!

Oh, and yes, I do agree with you regarding your ship analogy

Cheers,

Jon

Reckon we ought to let the serious, high-minded ones get this back on the rails!!!

Fred

Yep.