Are they serious ?

Dear Mick,

Don't leave me now! This is getting good! Look about four up at my 'sea analogy' post, as I am not all sure it is too far off-beam.

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

Nime,

The fact that you have made unkind, personal remarks about another forum member, dosen't per se particularly bother me - I've participated in much worse on this forum in the past. I doubt whether they bother the targetted member at all. But given the recent flurry of genteel comments about how good Adam's moderation has been, and how nice this forum has become without the personal insults, I imagine there are a lot of other people who are upset by your remarks.

Don

Thankyou for your kindness in bringing this matter to my attention Don. But I have selected my target quite deliberately. M.Parry Esq chose to step forward and volunteer his personal opinion of me some time back. It was unnecessary for him to comment at all but he still chose to do so.

So I will continue with my careful choice of barbs if it's quite alright with you. (And the rest of this particular Bedlam's voluntary patients)

A bore I may well be. But boorish? I hope not. Its not even personal. But I used to enjoy a nice game of skittles.

Best regards
Nime

Don

Nimes comments simply do not concern me because he is but a mere whimpering lightweight without influence or stature.

Frankly I just ignore him and can never be bothered to respond to him. He is just not worth the energy of tapping a keyboard.

Enough said on him.

Fredrik old chap

Your compassion does you credit on one hand but a disservice on the other.

Feeling sorry for non achievers is akin to dropping a £50.00 note to a beggar in the street. You do him a short term favour but also a long term disservice.

The aim is to produce a nation with a committed work ethic based on reward. People who get things done benefit society and should therefore be rewarded.

The lazy should receive no reward at all and those who try and fail need to be taught to try again. They are the problem area and they need to realise that if they fail at one thing, they should try something else. No one is totally useless and most of us are good at something.

That is the only way we will drag ourselves along the road to prosperity.

There will never be contentment because in this world you are only as good as your last innings.

In other word, man has taken himself from the caves to where he is by non stop hard work and there is still much work to do.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

[...].

Fritz old chap

Your compassion does you credit on one hand but a disservice on the other.

Feeling sorry for non achievers is akin to dropping a £50.00 note to a beggar in the street. You do him a short term favour but also a long term disservice.

The aim is to produce a nation with a committed work ethic based on reward. People who get things done benefit society and should therefore be rewarded.

The lazy should receive no reward at all and those who try and fail need to be taught to try again. They are the problem area and they need to realise that if they fail at one thing, they should try something else. No one is totally useless and most of us are good at something.

That is the only way we will drag ourselves along the road to prosperity.

There will never be contentment because in this world you are only as good as your last innings.

In other word, man has taken himself from the caves to where he is by non stop hard work and there is still much work to do.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

We had fun while you were away! But really my post about the sea had a serious point, which you chose to not answer, so I again wonder if you really think that an increasingly divided, proportionally, society where the rich become significantly better off compared to the poor and the division growing apace, is really a good thing. I deplore it.

Firstly, I wonder what possible harm would come of giving a tramp a fifty pound note, or in my case a pound coin, would do. If he blows on booze or drugs, well good for him. He is creating work of a sort, and don't tell me rich people never have a drink or even perish the thought, indulge in substance abuse! Why should it be the preserve of the rich to do this, at least in sense that few seem to complian when THEY do? Or perhaps that is a permitted hypocrasy on the part of the rich? Except that the rich often inherit the hard earned efforts of their ancestors, so that is perhaps enough of an excuse?

Secondly, I am certain you are correct that people who get things done benefit society, but getting things done and making loads of money doing it certainly do not run together in every case. If you pay a good deal in tax I believe this is far less effective in its efficiency than actually doing things directly. Your implication seems to be, and correct me if i am wrong, that only people earning a great deal are useful to society at large, but I would demure at this, and say there are a great many who volunteer their efforts, who do far more for society than the average high earner. Neither can be done without, but I certainly would not rate the high earner as necessarily ahead of the charity volunteer, or volunteer hospital visitor or whatever...

As for your assertion that the lazy should get nothing at all, well we all work with the lazy, and they get paid just as much as industious folk, and because they are useless arse lickers who get away with it in our system, then they get promooted. I've seen it, and ended up working under them, with the concomitant reduction in potential of a the whole team. Unfortunately these people often mouth the same sentiement you have been, whilst (and I am certain you are not one but) being total hypocrites in this matter! Those who are too lazy to attempt work, don't get too much, but any system designed to catch and help those incapable of work, is always going to attrack the attention of a small number (relative to the workforce as whole) who abuse the it. Systems of any sort are always subect to abuse, but please don't let's throw out the helpless babies with the bath water just to rid ourselves of the menace of some spongers. They don't have my sympathy, and be sure of that...

But the who;e point of my fairly tenaciously held possition here is that it really does not matter how hard you work once you get into the minimum wage type of job; you stand next to no chance of getting out of it. Indeed, I'd venture being truely conscientious and successful in getting things done will garantee that you become indispensible and will proceed not one level further. I have seen it. I have been there. I was told by my production director (on the board of the company I worked for) that I would never get a better job, because I was too important in getting shop-floor work done. All the while though housing (mortguage actually laughable out of reach) costs, council tax, water rates and so forth rise faster than inflation, whilst the (allegedly) unskilled wage-rate sticks at or below the RPI. Mind management (and MPs!) and others, and some who don't even earn their income, have seen the income grow significantly faster than the RPI. Thus the very act of not getting into debt as a poor person become ever more heroic, without even consodering how you are going to do the type of higher earning job you seem to consider more valuable to society. In my view the hospital cleaner does a job of equal important (in the sense that badly done it leads to catastrophe) as the doctors and nurses. I am not proposing that these professionals should be dropped in pay to the level of the cleaners, but rather that the cleaners should be more highly regarded than they are and, yes payed more. In fact many of the workers in the lowest paid jobs, particularly the food industry for example, do jobs, which if not done with considerable skill and care, would soon produce a disaster of national proportions, and yet in your position of arguement, because they earn about 5 GBP an hour they are more or less failures to be looked down on as some sort of social parasites, because they contribute rather less to the exchequer than office staff, accountants or other people, who I struggle hard to imagine why the are worth more than maybe 8GBP an hour, perhaps! Personally I think nurses for example should get twice what accountants get interms of value to society...

My final comment (for now!) is that 40 to 50 hours a week of labouring at allegedly unskilled work ought to make it possible to buy a modest, sanitary and decent home, and allow retirement at between 65 and say 68, but I can tell you it will not and things are getting ever harder, by a big margin nowadays. Yet if everyone became a hands off clerical worker nothing would happne at all - both breeds are needed, and should be more nearly qually remunerated. When you are tired out from work, the chances of you bettering youself are pretty slim. The system is indeed, not just stacked against your honest hard-working person, but it is getting worse.

I hope you will take the trouble to answer, what I think are fundamentally important issues, which indeed relate directly to this thread and this Gov't's crazy policy of allowing second homes to become a part of pension provision for those wealthy enough to be able to make the provision in the first place! For every second home reduces the chance of the relatively less well off to succeed in the stated aim above of owning a modest home of their own by retirement age, obviously, provided they have toiled honestly and hard, all their working lives! Is it too much to expect of a Gov't of whatever colour, to consider this not just fair, but rather important...

Sorry about the length of this, but I do think you have sort of put the case for the Gov't's policy being, at least acceptible, which I and some others ceratinly would disagree with.

Yours sincerely, Fredrik

Dear Mick,

I see that you have edited you immediately above post from Fritz to Fredrik (see my quote of the unedited version), so I apologize for taking your comments as addressed to Dear Mr Berlin (innit?) who is about as German as I am, I think. My original thought that you had missed my post did cause me to write a long an highly argued post, but please believe this is a debating point and not a dig at yourself as a person. I do feel strongly on the issue obviously and a robust debate often clarifies an issue rather well, so please do fell free to attack my softer than your notions of what is right. In a way I really wish I could get out of the UK, not because of you, obviously, but because of some of the ideas you are advocating and a great many others share. [It is finished here for the honest, hard-working but nominally unskilled little man or woman, IMO]. Clearly Mr Blair was elected, after all!

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Nimes comments simply do not concern me because he is but a mere whimpering lightweight without influence or stature.

Well that puts paid to the rumour that a determined gnat cannot puncture the hide of a wallowing hippo.

"Lightweight"? That'll be the cycling.

"Stature"? I've never had any complaints from the ladies. :blush;

If you meant "status" it is not I overdosing on this empty aspect of your life. Status is a disease of those ill-at-ease with themselves.

How does it feel that Fredrik is vastly more articulate than you in your own language? I'd hate to see what he can do to your empty posturing in Norwegian! I hope his networking here helps him find the employment best suited to his remarkable talents, insight and compassion.

Wealth is a sickness. It distorts values. The average human being has some compassion for those who lack the basics. Those who have weealth must switch off their compassion or their sense of well-being would crumble at the sight of those not as well-off as themselves. They must harden their faces and their minds to the poverty and hunger around them. Otherwise they would fritter their wealth away on charitible acts instead of on BMWs, luxury cruise liners and pecious jewellery. Which they think they deserve more than another person deserves to eat.

Catalism is the greatest fraud ever pulled off on mankind. It pretends that all can rise to the top. That all can afford the goods offered in such abundance. That everybody will live happliy ever after if only they can afford the next purchase or copy Mr Jone's three watering cans that each cost more than a week's take home pay for many essential workers. But who makes the watering cans? Do they magically arrive at the tasteful display at the dealers carried by middle class professionals wearing white cotton gloves and a calico pinny? (As the manufacturers hope you will believe)

Capitalism is driven by advertising. The art of double-speak. The genocidal global movement to destroy the human race ASAP. If it was invented today they'd have to ban it by tomorrow.

Africa is being raped by the EU as it dumps its heavily subsidised goods there. The farmers' crops are worthless because they cannot compete on price for their crops. Which they were told to grow to make Africa rich. Instead of graowing sustainable food staples that people could afford locally. Agriculture employed many millions directly and indirectly. Those millions are now in shanty towns without hope or pride in a day's useful work. Seething discontent with the Wealthy West must be a breeding ground for terrorism in the future. Do we do this to ourselves (and vast numbers of others) deliberately? Wouldn't it be cheaper to let them grow their own food instead of investing billions in home security? Oh, I forgot. "WE" deliberately wrecked their climate to make sure they buy our goods. Isn't that a sickening thought?

The teeth of the world are rotting because the life-giving essentials of Coca-Cola are beong shipped in to populations that have never used sugar as a recreational substance. Vast swathes of humanity are suffering endless torment for a bottle of gassed sugar and water?

Cigarettes droop from the lips of natives in steamy jungles and blistering deserts as they swig on a bottle of Coke like a baby at the breast. Their naive, uneducated minds think these items are essential because their TVs tell them so. They have no experience to differentiate between the obscene lies of advertising and the twisted truth fromtheir politicians. So the magic of the West must be afforded at all costs. Even if they must go hungry and travel many miles to fetch these "luxuries" instead of hunting or growing sustainably for healthy food.

I note that a recent poll suggests that estate agents have now sunk to the level of "advertising professionals" in the national popularity stakes. "Bandits in suits" do seem equally at home with all the other liars. A match made in capitalist heaven! That's networking at its best! Expect plenty of marriages and the divorces will follow. More fucked-up kids on drugs.

Diesel cars are selling like hot cakes thanks to their lower fuel prices and better economy. Now the Danish government is considering subsidies to fit particle filters to all diesels!?! Instead of increasing the tax on the fuel to bring it up to the price of petrol or increasing the cost of owning these vehicles to make them less polular!?! Over 80% of modern private diesel cars are estimated to have been "chipped" to raise their performance to that of petrol driven cars. I don't care. They all sound like badly maintained busses to me.

A court case is in the offing to allow private rented accomodation to be sold to those who rent the property. This is no doubt a terrifying prospect for the property investment "industry" on a rise. All that "hard work" to invest early to make a free killing completely without effort is hoisting their petard up to the waistline and the mere idea is making their eyes water.

A Danish pension company has just sold £100M of shares in Wallmart because of the way that it treats its workers. It was considered that owning shares in this company was quite simply unethical. So they told the papers why they were selling. It was considered pointless to try and change things at the Wallmart AGM.

Is that enough whimpering for you? Or were you taking the Micky?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Don

Nimes comments simply do not concern me because he is but a mere whimpering lightweight without influence or stature.


Mick

Thank you for attacking the argument not the person.

Oops wrong thread.

No - hang on....

I think this proves that some 'people' in here are Moderator's constructs - created for a bit of fun. What other possible use could there be?

I am not a construct.
I am not a construct.
I am not a construct.
I am not a construct.
Am I?

Fredrik

You have converted me. I have been in London today on business and I dropped £1.00 in a beggars hat.

Regards

Mick

One small step for man. One giant leap....

Dear Mick

Now I am worried! Only joking of course! But it bloody awful being at the bottom of the tip, even if I am surely more blessed than may. And we all see them every day and they all have a story, far worse in many respects than we could easily imagine...

Been a fine debate, which is over for me if you want...

Fredrik

Fredrik

A good discussion but timee to put it to bed.

Regards

Mick

Bedtime? Surely not?

Is there a practical alternative to our modern competitive economic system?

Status of ownership drives prices down to allow all to own a copy (if not an original) of a desirable object. So people from the affluent West go deeply into debt to buy the products of wage slavery in third world countries

Competition on pricing has become a fixed commandment. But why? Why do nations compete for sales between each other? When logic suggests home-grown produce would be much cheaper without intercontinental transport and subsidy?

Globalisation is supposed to level the playing field. But the EU is still paying farmers 4 times the market price for growing sugar beat. Which isn't even a suitable crop for Scandinavia! Where it's called "White Gold" because it adds substantially to marginal farmers' incomes.

But farms are run by only one or two people today. So all those subsidies are keeping only one or two men in work but depriving very many of their paid work in Africa.

Hierarchy in society grew out of chieftains need to potect their treasure from robbers. So they paid a few tough guys a few beans to get their loyalty. This required an oversser to ensure compliance and some degree of organisation. Paying somebody doesn't guarantee discipline or order.

This has been directly transposed into the modern office and factory system. Where nobody would give a fig if they weren't watched constantly.

Is there hope for a non-heirarchical economic system where everybody isn't in direct competition with each other?

The present system may be slowly jacking up the real wealth of a few but at the cost of 1 in 5 suffering from injurious stress. (Danish statistical office) How do you share without lowering yourself to communism and the lowest common denominator? Where the party members enjoy exactly the same advanatges as the rich in democracies?

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik H:
The titanic was an example of the folly of pride on the part of the ship owner, who in that case ceratinly was well enough connected. Too much speed, albeit in the right direction.

...and sailing into a KNOWN icefield at full speed, after already having adjusted their course to (imo) save a bit of time. Actually, wasn't Bruce "Brute" Ismay only the MD of White Star? HE was the one who ordered Captain Smith to go at breakneck speed, not Lord Pirrie...

Although the rudder may or may not have been too small/of the wrong shape, the Titanic was far safer than pretty much any modern ship. 2 hours 40 minutes to sink with THAT much damage, over, what, 1.5 minutes for the Herald of Free Enterprise. Makes you think.

Back on track... (well, kind of)

Don: you're right - I should wake up from that foolish dream. However, if prices dropped by 30% I'd be back in the running

Mick: whereabouts in Plymouth were you raised? I lived there from 1977-1996 in the Roborough area - just curious?? Do you remember them opening the new Dingles etc, after the war?