I changed my mind on CDX/XPS...
Posted by: Mike Hanson on 07 June 2001
Instead, I'm going to go for CDS2, and while I'm at it I'll upgrade my 82 to a 52. Hell, you only live once. So now the 52 is on order, and I'm picking up the CDS2 next week.
And I still haven't setup my Mana. Can you believe it?!? I'll get done over the next few days. The listening room is almost cleared out, though, and it looks like I might need longer speaker cables. Now I'm working out when I'll put the dedicated spur in place.
Does the fun never end? (asks Mike, who's had a few too many glasses of celebratory wine)
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
as soon as you have installed cdsii and nac52 your system will be crying out for SBLs. 
hope you have a good dealer and t'll all work out swimmingly well...
enjoy
ken
quote:
I must agree with Ken C's observation
Do you mean "your system will be crying out for SBLs"? If I get new speakers, I'll be overlooking the SBLs. They would really be a sideways upgrade from my Albions. Yes, they do some things better, but they're oh so clinical. Even the NBLs are a little too aloof for my tastes. Considering Credos and Intros have that same trait, it's obviously a family resemblence. I prefer my speakers to be a little more congenial.
However, before I consider new speakers, I'll be upgrading my 250 to 135s (hopefully quite a while from now 
). The Albions were originally designed with the 135s as the main test amps, so I want to hear how they sound with that before moving on to something better.
Maybe it will be WB Act2's like David Antonelli, or perhaps Shahinians as Jason Hector recommends. The $7000US Spendors sound nice too, as do the Dynvector Confidence 3's. I'm not in a rush to do that, though, since the last time I went shopping for speakers, it took me eight months to decide on the Albions. Considering the extra money I'll be spending, I suspect the desicion will be especially tough. There's also the factor that my room is small, yet I want full range speakers with lots of slam. It could be a real challenge to find a match.
quote:
Mike said: I'm hoping that the higher end kit isn't as fiddly.Rico said: You're having a laugh, right?
I knew I would have to clarify that statement. 
I am driven to upgrade by pain and pleasure:
- Does it hurt now, and would an upgrade help?
- It's sounds great, but could it be even better?
My current system causes me very little pain, so now most up my upgrades are for pleasure. That wasn't always the case though. Some of the things that bugged me in the past were:
- Some music sounds great, but it often seems thin and the sweetspot is too small (solved by upgrading from 3.5/Flat/102/NAPSC/140 to 3.5/Hi/102/NAPSC/Hi/140)
- It's not loud enough (solved by upgrading from 3.5/Hi/102/NAPSC/Flat/140 to CDX/102/NAPSC/Hi/140)
- There's not enough body and slam (solved by upgrading to the 102/NAPSC/Hi to 82/2*Hi)
- Sometimes it sounds a little strained at higher volumes (solved by upgrading the 140 to a 250)
Of course, I received many other benefits with each of these upgrades, but it was the pain that drove me to change it.
As I've walked up the ladder, I've noticed that power fluctuations are more obvious now than they were earlier (although that might just be me getting good at recognizing it). I also realize that my room may cause problems, which will require absorption and/or dispersion techniques, proper speaker placement, etc. I've bought some software from ETF Acoustics to help in that realm. Also, good stands maximize the performance of your gear, which is why I'm using Mana.
My ultimate goal has always been "filling the space with music, as if it were being played by live musicians". With each upgrade, I'm closer to that goal. I already feel that my system sounds better than pretty much all amplified events (except perhaps some better dance/club scenes and the occasional intimate concert). For acoustic events, it depends on the hall and performance. I'm usually very satisfied by my stereo, whereas I'm often dissatisfied with live gigs.
quote:
And you bought Mana, too! And hey, when are you going to set that up?
This Sunday afternoon, if possible. Otherwise, it will be sometime next week.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 08 June 2001 at 18:04.]
quote:
I would play with the CDS 2 on various supports. If the mana doesn't do anything, other supports might.
I've already got word back from JW at Mana, and he says that the rumours regarding the CDS2's immunity to Mana are unfounded. Apparently it will work wonderfully, so I'm proceeding with my original plans.
I'm really looking forward to getting the gear. I tried to pick up the CDS2 yesterday, but I ran out of time. My wife, Jill, dragged me into Ashleys, and she convinced me to buy her some new Mikasa china and glassware. It was cheaper than I expected, so it wasn't too painful. At least I'm an equal opportunity buyer.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Perhaps I'll do each piece individually, just to see how it helps each type of kit.Then I'll compare the CDS2 without Mana to CDX at phase 4. That should be an interesting test, as I've heard what Mana phase 2 can do to a CDX. (I've said earlier that a CDX on phase 2 is about 75% of an XPS.) I'll also compare the 52 without Mana to the 82 at phase 3. I figure that if a CDX at phase 4 is anywhere near a CDX/XPS, then it should to wonders for a CDS2. Stay tuned...
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 08 June 2001 at 23:00.]
Jack a Linksys router BEFSR-41 on p4 mana , load firmware v1.38 , enable SPI and try Sygate SPF 4 on the clients.... small , clean , footprint w/SPF4. As a bonus you also get IDS, a logger, rule-basing options and it's freeware.
regards,
dave/manaland
Tip-of-the-day: Mana p4 sounds better under the cds as opposed to the Linksys
quote:
just enjoy now and pay later
I'm lucky to be making enough money at the moment to pay for these toys up front. (I don't believe in loans for anything but house and car, and I'm starting to drop "car" from that list. Also, I hate banks and I would never want to convince them that they should lend me $20,000 for a couple of stereo components.) Of course, I won't always be making this much cash, so when there's a lull in business, I can enjoy the music a little more.
quote:
I've found my cdsii and xps to be EXTREMELY finicky about their environment.
I was very lucky that the system sounded great with very little tweaking in my apartment. I'm not sure about the house yet.
quote:
In fact, I've reached a conclusion that to really hear cdsii at is best it needs to be in an acoustically isolated space (eg. another room).
In my case it will be inside a closet in the listening room. Not perfect isolation, but better than nothing.
quote:
YOU WILL NEVER HEAR [THE CDS2] PERFORM THE WAY ITS INTENDED WITHOUT PUTTING IT ON A GOOD STAND.
Which is why it's destined for phase 4 Mana.
quote:
I'd recommend setting up your gear first on a simple "ONE LAYER" (phase 1) sound table & amp stand AND get your mains spur done.
The spur won't get done for a couple of months. In the mean time, I'm sure all the Mana will get setup. I'll have to remove it, though, when the spur is installed (the closet is rather cramped), so I'll get lots of practice setting it up.
quote:
people with the mains right have ended up pulling out extra layers/phases.... I don;t think the "mix 'n match" comparison approach will provide any really meaningful result as its all so interdependent within the total system
You're the first person I've heard who's suggested that downgrading their Mana is a desirable thing, except, of course, for those who eschew Mana entirely.
quote:
ALSO... the cds2 and 52 (especially) take a LONG LONG time to run in and their personality changes a lot over the period.
The CDS2 is a demo model, so it's been broken in already. The 52 is new, but the Super-Cap is broken in and warmed-up. Hopefully that will help.
quote:
my cdsii took around 6 weeks for the music to arrive, and the 52 about 3-4 months before it really "socked it to me".
I'm surprised that you could tell the 52 was still improving, when I'm sure you were tweaking other things during that period. Also, is your hearing memory really that consistent and objective? I find I that I can convince myself that my office system is stellar, until I go downstairs to my main gear. Therefore, I don't take much stock in claims that there are improvements over long periods. Hell, even power fluctuations could explain those effects. (Please excuse me, but I'm a little skeptical in this area. I prefer a "proper" A-B comparison: take long enough on each item to get "settled" before switching to the other.)
quote:
As for your room limitations .. no point treating the room until you've got the equipment on good stands ... cos acoustic feedback (energy into the electronics) "sounds like" a bad room effect. Get the gear in a "neutral environment" and a lot of the "room problems" disappear.
I'm hoping that having it in the closet on Mana will help. Also, the speakers may be on an extra layer of isolation from the floor, so that might help floor-induced vibrations back at the electronics.
quote:
its all one system, and a problem anywhere in the chain ends up manifesting itself via the speakers, so it can be really confusing tracking down the sources. Another example: I thought I had a problem with a rear-wall reflection in one speaker UNTIL I fixed the supports under the cdsii.
I hope it's not too crazy that way. I'm generally not a tweaker. I would rather just get it setup and enjoy it. Oh well, we'll see how it goes. Thanks for all of your comments. I always find your posts intriguing and helpful.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on SATURDAY 09 June 2001 at 11:27.]
quote:
I can't believe you bought all that stuff without trying your Mana first.
I know what Mana will do for my gear, as I've heard this demonstrated on several systems. However, I've heard the difference between a CDS2 and other players enough times to know that I have to have that magic before I'll be completely "happy". Your system on Mana sounds great (similar to mine, except 52 vs. 82), but it doesn't have that magic provided by the CDS2. The Mana will still work with all these new boxes, so I don't expect to be disappointed.
You have to understand that I'm not looking for a system that's "good enough to satisfy me". I could have lived just fine with CDX/102/NAPSC/Hi/140, as it was certainly "good enough". I've heard the CDS2, though, and the increased pleasure is significant. Even JW at Mana says get the best system you can afford, and put it on Mana. That's what I'm doing.
I can get a good deal on the CDS2 right now, so I'm taking the opportunity. In the case of the 52, I had the XPS ordered and paid for at the local dealer. I figured that I could just change the order to a 52, and the trade-in on my 82 would make up for the difference in price (pretty close).
BTW, I'm finishing the Mana setup today (started yesterday morning, and I've got the first Sound Stage perfectly placed). I'll soon have my existing gear running that way, and I'm know that it will be a big improvement over the current rack.
quote:
Do you want to be in on my next poker game?
I'm not a poker fan. I find the entire endeavor quite pointless and boring. In fact, all gambling makes me yawn. I would rather go to work, where I know I'll make some money, rather than giving it away in a silly game of chance. Aren't I a party pooper?
quote:
Also, I don't know how many years this will take, but one day you will hear SBLs properly--or understand what they do--and feel pretty silly for owning whatever $10k+ boomers you may happen to run at the time. Why not just accept the inadequacy of your experience AND audio education/perception and tackle the problem in an enlightened way?
Although I've stated otherwise (claiming I would overlook SBLs outright), in all fairness I would probably give them a try in my own room on the end of CDS2/52/2*135 before plunking down $10K+ on another set of speakers. The one benefit of Naim speakers is that they can be easily activated, which pretty much everyone agrees is a good thing.
My key remaining concern at this stage is that I've heard NBLs on the end of CDS2/52/2*135 and CDS2/52/500. Although they were certainly spectacular, they weren't as involving as my Albions. If this is typical of SBLs when they sound "good", then the speaker is not for me.
BTW, I would pass on the Neat Elites for the same reason, although they are somewhat better in this respect, compared to Naim speakers. This one particular quality (engagement) is something that I must have, and my Albions do it as well as any other speaker that I've heard. They may falter in other areas, but I treasure this one aspect so much that I can live with the compromises in the other areas. Any speaker that replaces it must do it just as well.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
The machine that I'm going to use for Linus is currently at her mother's. We're taking her a better system in a couple of weeks, and I'll bring that one back to use as the router/firewall.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-