Most under rated?

...for having the sheer nerve to form a jazz quartet consisting of Hammond, drums, guitar and violin ("Orgelspiele"; 1984; BEBAB 250966), and record easily IMHO the second-best version of "Blue Rondo" ever.

"Outhipped" (1999; Verve 547 503-2) is also brilliant, with a very Miles-ian "Frog Dance" and an extraordinary "Satisfaction" cover. I suspect Fred S. would like this, but his mileage may vary...

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

I cannot understand why, IMHO, Diesel Park West are not recognised as the greatest rock band to come out of the UK.

For over ten years they have been making superb guitar based rock, to critical but not popular acclaim.

I just don't get it..........................

Regards,

Brian OReilly

A controversial proposal for among the most under rated:

Pat Metheny Group (Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays)

Because of the accessible sheen of their music, surprisingly few folks really appreciate the depth, complexity, and weight of their achievement.

As far as I'm concerned, PMG is unparalleled in contemporary jazz; simply no one else is making music on the level they're making it, for as long as they've been making it, as consistently as they've been making it. It's been 25 years ... for a precedent in jazz you have to start looking at the Duke Ellington Orchestra, Keith Jarrett Trio, or the Modern Jazz Quartet for that kind of longevity of excellence. Album after album, song after song, melody after melody ... the unending fountain of high-level creativity is just mind boggling.

It's so completely weird to me how little real recognition Metheny and Mays get in a critical and historic light.

Geri Allen. I think she is a master musician and incorporates her influences seamlessly in her style , Monk or Herbie Nicholls for example, but still has her own unique voice. Its fascinating to see her play live as she is always listening and responding to the musicians around her. The Penguin guide sort of damns her with faint praise and suggests she is better in a supporting role but I think her leader recordings and live performances are superb.

John

Still stunned that Fred compares Pat M to Ellington. I wonder if Jarrett is a little underappreciated by jazz fans though??

quote:

---

Still stunned that Fred compares Pat M to Ellington.

---

He doesn't. He was talking about consistency over time.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Recognised as a producer (won a Grammy this year), but utterly unrecognised as a musician.

His albums are an essential purchase, particularly "Proof Through the Night".

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

"simply no one else is making music on the level they're making it, for as long as they've been making it, as consistently as they've been making it. It's been 25 years ... for a precedent in jazz you have to start looking at the Duke Ellington Orchestra..."

"On the level they're making it" suggests to me that he thinks they are comparable. He did say it was controversial.

John
n

[This message was edited by John C on THURSDAY 16 May 2002 at 15:54.]

I intended my comparison of Metheny (and Mays) to Ellington (and Strayhorn) in all senses ... consistency over time and quality of composition and overall musical conception. The level of melodic/harmonic/rhythmic invention and creativity of both is equal in my view. If one sits at a piano and investigates the actual notes of their respective compositions, one will find that the level of songcraft is quite comparable, namely, brilliant.

Both are deeply committed, passionate composer/musicians, with undeniably unique personal voices, straddling the intersection of art and popular song, whose output is of the highest world-class quality, tune after tune, and continues to be for decades.

And, John, I do think that Jarrett is much more than a little under appreciated.

Just did a search - not a mention on the forum . Shame on you all !!
His albums - Dynamite Daze and Bursting Bubbles are late 70s classics. I read recently that he was lined up as Jim Morrisons replacement in The Doors - an unlikely combo I grant you but this man has the hair of Krusty the Clown and the voice of god.
Cheers
Glenda.

I cannot see PM as even in the same solar system as the Duke. Ellington not only composed some of the greatest music ever but also was a consumate arranger who expertly utilised the individuals within his orchestra. Lets not also forget the long form suites which were groundbreaking! I can see your argument in some areas but please....

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodface:
I cannot see PM as even in the same solar system as the Duke. Ellington not only composed some of the greatest music ever but also was a consumate arranger who expertly utilised the individuals within his orchestra. Lets not also forget the long form suites which were groundbreaking! I can see your argument in some areas but please....

---

No composer is sacrosanct, and new geniuses do occasionally come along. Your description of Ellington ("composed some of the greatest music ever but also was a consummate arranger who expertly utilised the individuals within his orchestra") is a very apt one, both of Ellington/Strayhorn and Metheny/Mays. I've spent a lot of time (decades) not only listening to both, but playing the music of both on the piano, both in performance and in analytic investigation. The level of craft, invention, and inspiration is of the very highest quality in both.

Hey Glenda

I totally agree with you.

The remastered Marjorie Razor Blade is an astonishing listen on CD too.

P - who shares a birthday with Pat Metheny but likes to keep it quiet - need I explain?

But no matter what you say, Fred, we just don't get it when it comes to Pat. I have tried, with American Garage and others some years ago, and he's on a Brecker album I have, which is kind of OK. But it doesn't gel with me. He sounds like he's sort of meandering to me. And my tastes are very eclectic in this so-called jazz genre, from Monk to Shorter, Hancock, Konitz, Mingus, Coltrane, Davis, Evans blah blah blah....you get the picture. But as with others here, you lose me on Pat. What are we missing?

quote:

---

Originally posted by richard goldsmith:
But no matter what you say, Fred, we just don't get it when it comes to Pat ... What are we missing?

---

The notes.

The nuts and bolts of the music, beneath its polished exterior, are of the highest caliber. From every aspect -- composition, orchestration/arrangement, performance, recording -- Metheny/Mays music is superbly constructed and profoundly inspired, with its own elegant language and coherent, organic logic.

Equal to that of Ellington/Strayhorn? Absolutely. If you are able (or if a friend is ... or better yet, come over to my house) to sit at a piano with the Pat Metheny Songbook (published by Hal Leonard) and spend significant time analyzing the written music you will see why. Duke's In A Sentimental Mood is as great a tune as has ever been written, but timeless tunes can't make time stop moving forward, other brilliant tunes will come along. Investigate Metheny's Always and Forever, for instance, and you will find another.

OK Fred, I'll make an effort and try that track. I did an AMG search and it comes up on an album from '92 or so. Must say the line-up looks promising.

After giving some more thought to Fred Simon's musing on Pat Metheny and the Duke I feel that in some ways he is missing the point. Unfortunately I am not a musician myself, so I do not really have the technical insight which Mr Simon enjoys, but I do feel that great music should be understood by the masses. Surely if you have to be a musician to appreciate a body of work then something is missing on an emotional level; if you like, the music appeals to the head rather than the heart. Duke Ellington had the ability to reach the common man and the intelectual; this was achieved through the raw emotion in his music. Whenever I have listened to PM I feel he is too slick and basically, it passes me by.

Oh Julia!

No question about it. Why on earth she faces difficulty finding a record company in the UK is beyond me. Does anyone know when "Concrete Love" is going to be released in UK? And on which label?

Stunning voice, great songwriter, amazing ability to reach and communicate with each member of the audience and not too bad on the eyes either!

Regards, CB

Now there is a blast from the past. I think the reason she never made it big was her personality. Whenever she was interviewed she always came across as pretentious, giggly and girly. I seem to recall a couple of good records but the ability to come across well in interviews is often more important these days than the music itself. Sad I know, but it is a fact.

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodface:
After giving some more thought to Fred Simon's musing on Pat Metheny and the Duke I feel that in some ways he is missing the point. Unfortunately I am not a musician myself, so I do not really have the technical insight which Mr Simon enjoys, but I do feel that great music should be understood by the masses. Surely if you have to be a musician to appreciate a body of work then something is missing on an emotional level; if you like, the music appeals to the head rather than the heart. Duke Ellington had the ability to reach the common man and the intelectual; this was achieved through the raw emotion in his music. Whenever I have listened to PM I feel he is too slick and basically, it passes me by.

---

In no way did I mean to imply that one need to be a musician in order to appreciate Metheny's music, only that at its core, on the nuts and bolts level, his music stands up to analysis as well as that of anyone, including Duke. But any PMG fan will eagerly tell you that the music appeals equally to the heart and mind, and, in fact, can easily be deeply loved for its emotional resonance even if its intellectual components aren't understood.

Of course, as in all of life, the head and heart are not as distinct as it might seem; there are identifiable elements that convey emotion in music. One needn't understand them in order to be affected emotionally, but knowledge can enhance overall experience. If you have the idea that PMG music only appeals to the intellect, that perception is mistaken; it is clearly its raw emotional power that endears its fans to it. In this way, Metheny/Mays is quite comparable to Ellington/Strayhorn in their ability to speak to both the layman and the academic.

Your feeling that PMG music is too slick stymies me. To a certain extent, I think that you have conditioned yourself to hear the music that way because of preconceived notions which cause you to confuse the package for the content. Maybe it's a question of semantics, but the word "slick" to me has a decidedly pejorative quality which implies that a perpetrator is trying to pull something over on the listener, that there's something jive about the music. Nothing could be further from the truth in PMG music, in which the aesthetic is definitely polished, but no more so than that of a world class symphony, or Ellington's well-oiled precision big band machine. Polish does not equal slick, nor does it mean insincere.

Amongst many possible options (Los lobos, Talk Talk, Flaming Lips, Stina Nordenstom, etc) one band for me stands out: The dBs. Early eighties band often seen as the missing link between Big Star and REM. First two albums, "Stands for decibels" and "Repercussion" now available on a two for one CD from Collecters Choice Music. I believe Stereophool reviewed it recently saying something along the lines of sometimes a footnote at the time turns out to be a major work. Very true. Highly recommended and criminally underated.

Gilesg

I appreciate your views Fred and you are quite right regarding the use of the word 'slick'. Unfortunately which ever way I look at it PMG still leaves me cold. When I hear a Hodges solo it can often bring a tear to the eye; this doesn't happen with PMG although I appreciate this is perhaps not a totally fair comparison. I think we will have to agree to differ.

...are my candidates after re-dicovering two Auteurs albums at the back of the cupboard last night. Not heard any of Mr haines contributions in various guises since the Auteurs split-has anyone else?

Bruce

Anything by the Wonderstuff.

Saw The Mutton Birds at Shepherds Bush Empire Waitangi Day, 1999. Great gig.

What about Hunters & Collectors as underrated. Sadly they didn't quite make the distance that the Oils have. No groans from the back, Tim O!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Famously very witty, a collection of Desmondisms here

http://www.interlog.com/~mirus/desmond/ephemera.htm

John