blue ray or hd dvd
Posted by: Robert Woj on 16 August 2007
I wonder wich way naim will come, dvd 5 is far too expensive acording too what new formats can do with picture , even hd tv has a beter quality then any dvd - resolution rules 
Posted on: 16 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
The answer will be found in what happens with software sales. Naim are not noted for being in forefront with new formats, and this is hardly a surprise considering the nature of the models they make, which once issued tend to live for years, even decades in some cases. The first CD players were hardly very soon released after the CD medium became significant.
I imagine that in video releases on CD sized discs, history will repeat itself [as in the betamax/VHS tape fiasco] and the best quality will not be the winners so much as the one which the issuers of film decide to back, and this is likelty to follow price as much as quality considerations with the public. There are so many normal DVDs already in circulation that I imagine that backward compatability is likely to be one of the major considerations as well.
It is important to remember that one of the claims to fame for the Naim DVD5 is that it is rather good on the sonics as well as the picture quality.
ATB from Fredrik
I imagine that in video releases on CD sized discs, history will repeat itself [as in the betamax/VHS tape fiasco] and the best quality will not be the winners so much as the one which the issuers of film decide to back, and this is likelty to follow price as much as quality considerations with the public. There are so many normal DVDs already in circulation that I imagine that backward compatability is likely to be one of the major considerations as well.
It is important to remember that one of the claims to fame for the Naim DVD5 is that it is rather good on the sonics as well as the picture quality.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 21 August 2007 by Tuan
quote:Originally posted by Robert Woj:
I wonder wich way naim will come, dvd 5 is far too expensive acording too what new formats can do with picture , even hd tv has a beter quality then any dvd - resolution rules
Why do we care. If you want a high resolution system, buy non-Naim players. All Naim DVD players are practically out-dated and out-classed by Bluerays or HD-DVD players with fraction of the Naim price. As proven: resolution rules.
Posted on: 22 August 2007 by Frank Abela
What rubbish!
1. BluRay and HD-DVD have yet to sort themselves out.
2. Sony is facing a major anti-competition legal battle regarding the signing of the Hollywood studios to BluRay.
3. The video capabilities of the new machines are theoretically excellent but as we all know if you have so much resolution, you need far faster chipsets to control all the moevement on the screen. As long as the majors try to make things cheap, they're more likely to be poor at movement.
4. The DVD5 and n-Vi provide among the very best available picture from DVD which is by far the most popular format, even though they don't upscale.
5. Upscaling is actually very often not such a good idea since most screens have a 768 or 1080 line display which means that the screens have to re-scale to fit their display. So you need to be careful with your scalers otherwise you're doing all the work twice over, and most aren't very good at it.
6. Sonically the Naim units leave most other (all other?) units for dead.
1. BluRay and HD-DVD have yet to sort themselves out.
2. Sony is facing a major anti-competition legal battle regarding the signing of the Hollywood studios to BluRay.
3. The video capabilities of the new machines are theoretically excellent but as we all know if you have so much resolution, you need far faster chipsets to control all the moevement on the screen. As long as the majors try to make things cheap, they're more likely to be poor at movement.
4. The DVD5 and n-Vi provide among the very best available picture from DVD which is by far the most popular format, even though they don't upscale.
5. Upscaling is actually very often not such a good idea since most screens have a 768 or 1080 line display which means that the screens have to re-scale to fit their display. So you need to be careful with your scalers otherwise you're doing all the work twice over, and most aren't very good at it.
6. Sonically the Naim units leave most other (all other?) units for dead.
Posted on: 22 August 2007 by Tuan
All BS...
I have a Sony PS3 playing bluray discs and standard DVD as well. Upscaling all the way up to 1080p for a fraction of the cost of some obsolete standard non-scaling DVD products. The sound from a non-compressed blurays disc is amazing via my Bryston amplification and Totem Model 1 Signature speakers. See and believe, no need to suck-up all the time.
I have a Sony PS3 playing bluray discs and standard DVD as well. Upscaling all the way up to 1080p for a fraction of the cost of some obsolete standard non-scaling DVD products. The sound from a non-compressed blurays disc is amazing via my Bryston amplification and Totem Model 1 Signature speakers. See and believe, no need to suck-up all the time.
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Frank Abela
Tuan,
I don't suck up but I don't disparage either. None of what I said earlier is BS that I know of. If you know better please say what is.
As to you experience with BluRay on PS3, very happy to hear you're happy with it, but what's it like on standard DVD, which remains the vast majority of people's collections? My understanding is that it's pretty poor at that, though I admit I haven't tried it.
I don't suck up but I don't disparage either. None of what I said earlier is BS that I know of. If you know better please say what is.
As to you experience with BluRay on PS3, very happy to hear you're happy with it, but what's it like on standard DVD, which remains the vast majority of people's collections? My understanding is that it's pretty poor at that, though I admit I haven't tried it.
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Tuan
Frank
The last updates of the PS3 (versions 1.8 and then 1.9) by Sony brings many improvements to the PS3 playback. The most noticeable upgrade is the upscaling from standard DVD to 720P, 1080i, 1080p (of course, it plays blurays discs at 1080p without scaling). Since this machine has a very advance central computer designed specifically for graphics, the PS3 is highly upgradable (via internet, wireless or flash cards). Based on people feed-backs it is a winner:http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=306
The last updates of the PS3 (versions 1.8 and then 1.9) by Sony brings many improvements to the PS3 playback. The most noticeable upgrade is the upscaling from standard DVD to 720P, 1080i, 1080p (of course, it plays blurays discs at 1080p without scaling). Since this machine has a very advance central computer designed specifically for graphics, the PS3 is highly upgradable (via internet, wireless or flash cards). Based on people feed-backs it is a winner:http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=306
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Mike1380
quote:Originally posted by Tuan:
All BS...
So classy.
Heaven forbid anyone should diagree with you, tuan, even if in a reasonable, rational, well documented form...
Let's face facts....
First, as great as the PS3 is, it's a penknife... it does many things... most well.
It sure as hell ain't a scalpel or a steak knife though... or are sony going to abandon making standalone blu-ray players because the PS3 is that damn good?
Second, resolution is not the be-all and end-all... a 1920X1080 24FPS picture that has poor stability, low colour depth, and limited edge definition will be inferior to a high quality DVD picture.
Personally, I don't care which format wins.... I've got hundreds of DVD's and a player that really does justice to them. I certainly won't buy a machine in either format until it can match the quality I'm already used to when playing THOSE discs, and until I know which format will be ongoing.
If you don't like my opinion, just say so... if you don't agree, and can substantiate your views, please express them.. including details of the A-B comparisons you've made on the Naim kit you seem so keen on slagging off... but if you want to sling mud pies, please just go into your garden and do so with whichever neighbours wish to indulge.
Regards
Mike
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Chris Kelly
This guy is just offensive. It's perfectly possible to disagree without this kind of attitude. Don't rise to the bait guys.
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Consciousmess
Incidental to all this...
Obviously, high resolution is the future whether you like current DVDs or not. Until resolution matches exactly what the eye perceived in real life there will always be something better to come.
I understand that the division between Blu-ray and HD-DVD has taken the form that 2 big film makers have supported HD-DVD and games are the specialism for Blu-ray. I caught just a bit from a Breakfast TV story.
On the topic of sound, we have 7.1 I understand that, but surely ultimate sound should be 18.1 as all four corners of a square room has a speaker along with bottom and top speakers mid-way between each wall and a subwoofer.
This would be ultimate 3d sound around the viewer. Why doesnt Dolby do this?
Jon
Obviously, high resolution is the future whether you like current DVDs or not. Until resolution matches exactly what the eye perceived in real life there will always be something better to come.
I understand that the division between Blu-ray and HD-DVD has taken the form that 2 big film makers have supported HD-DVD and games are the specialism for Blu-ray. I caught just a bit from a Breakfast TV story.
On the topic of sound, we have 7.1 I understand that, but surely ultimate sound should be 18.1 as all four corners of a square room has a speaker along with bottom and top speakers mid-way between each wall and a subwoofer.
This would be ultimate 3d sound around the viewer. Why doesnt Dolby do this?
Jon
Posted on: 23 August 2007 by Guido Fawkes
I don't suppose my favourite films will be in blu-ray or hd-dvd - as Fredrik said early in the thread - it is availability of software that matters. Moreover, as Mike says if you have a lot of films on DVD then you want to be able to play them - seems very sensible to me.
I think another sensible move is to wait for Naim to bring out a hi-res player because you know they'll only do it if makes sense. However, i think the likely outcome is blu-ray will be the DCC and hd-dvd will be the DAT of this latest format war.
Format wars: I don't care, please just release Don't Look Now We're Being Shot At on DVD and I'll be very happy.
ATB Rotf
18.1 - gulp - what a lost of nSats.
I think another sensible move is to wait for Naim to bring out a hi-res player because you know they'll only do it if makes sense. However, i think the likely outcome is blu-ray will be the DCC and hd-dvd will be the DAT of this latest format war.
Format wars: I don't care, please just release Don't Look Now We're Being Shot At on DVD and I'll be very happy.
ATB Rotf
18.1 - gulp - what a lost of nSats.
Posted on: 24 August 2007 by Chris Kelly
quote:Why doesnt Dolby do this?
That's an awful lot of amplification! A one-room ecological nightmare!
Posted on: 24 August 2007 by Frank Abela
Consciousmess,
Actually, of the 13 film studios, 11 have signed up for BluRay, 3 have signed up for HD-DVD. Of the 3 with HD-DVD, only one is exclusive to HD-DVD. Of the 11 signed up with BluRay, 10 are exclusive to BluRay. This is one reason why Sony is under investigation for antitrust breach. As for games, BluRay is more suited to them but its only implementation is in the PS3. As for HD-DVD, there is a drive available for the X-Box 360 but I'm not sure any games have been developed for it. That said, Games are a big part of the entertainment industry and every major film has an associated game which accounts for a significant revenue associated with the movie, so it's not something to sniff at anyway.
Going by your definiton, it would make more sense to have 18.4, with subwoofers in either the corners or centres of the walls. Actually, that's a simplistic view. Harman Kardon worked out that for a typical rectangular room, improvements in bass performance can be had at the 2, 4 and 16 subwoofer points. Above 16 subs becomes impractical (!). I forget where I had read the article other than the work was done by HK.
Furthermore, the original THX specification defined that the surround speakers should be dipoles with drive units 180 degrees out of phase, and the speakers should be placed above the listeners' heads. Most 5.1 or 7.1 installations don't meet this basic requirement and yet this has a major effect on the believability of a surround installation! Unfortunately, good dipoles are 1) uncommon, 2) expensive (relative to their usual counterparts), 3) restrictive in location so less desirable.
However, you do hit upon a good point. One of the main things missing from the surround specifications are height channels -i.e. if a plane goes overhead, you want to hear it do that, and if you do a flypast over a train, you want to hear it chugging beneath you. These channels were discounted because of the problems with installation. In theory the channels are easy to incorporate, but the installation of ceiling and floor-mounted channels is a problem, certainly domestically and to an extent in cinemas (the ceiling channel is not a problem but the floor channel is a major issue).
Finally, Dolby is not exactly renowned for being a trailblazer in technology. Even their original analogue noise reduction systems were based on well known principles, but they are very good at licensing and marketing. Either way, this isn't really up to Dolby or DTS, but up to THX and the cinema industry really.
Actually, of the 13 film studios, 11 have signed up for BluRay, 3 have signed up for HD-DVD. Of the 3 with HD-DVD, only one is exclusive to HD-DVD. Of the 11 signed up with BluRay, 10 are exclusive to BluRay. This is one reason why Sony is under investigation for antitrust breach. As for games, BluRay is more suited to them but its only implementation is in the PS3. As for HD-DVD, there is a drive available for the X-Box 360 but I'm not sure any games have been developed for it. That said, Games are a big part of the entertainment industry and every major film has an associated game which accounts for a significant revenue associated with the movie, so it's not something to sniff at anyway.
Going by your definiton, it would make more sense to have 18.4, with subwoofers in either the corners or centres of the walls. Actually, that's a simplistic view. Harman Kardon worked out that for a typical rectangular room, improvements in bass performance can be had at the 2, 4 and 16 subwoofer points. Above 16 subs becomes impractical (!). I forget where I had read the article other than the work was done by HK.
Furthermore, the original THX specification defined that the surround speakers should be dipoles with drive units 180 degrees out of phase, and the speakers should be placed above the listeners' heads. Most 5.1 or 7.1 installations don't meet this basic requirement and yet this has a major effect on the believability of a surround installation! Unfortunately, good dipoles are 1) uncommon, 2) expensive (relative to their usual counterparts), 3) restrictive in location so less desirable.
However, you do hit upon a good point. One of the main things missing from the surround specifications are height channels -i.e. if a plane goes overhead, you want to hear it do that, and if you do a flypast over a train, you want to hear it chugging beneath you. These channels were discounted because of the problems with installation. In theory the channels are easy to incorporate, but the installation of ceiling and floor-mounted channels is a problem, certainly domestically and to an extent in cinemas (the ceiling channel is not a problem but the floor channel is a major issue).
Finally, Dolby is not exactly renowned for being a trailblazer in technology. Even their original analogue noise reduction systems were based on well known principles, but they are very good at licensing and marketing. Either way, this isn't really up to Dolby or DTS, but up to THX and the cinema industry really.
Posted on: 24 August 2007 by Consciousmess
Thanks for the info Frank, your words are interesting!
I dont know what the distant future holds for films - can you imagine holographic 3-dimensional films being made coupled with the necessary sound?
Pure pipe dreams?
Jon
I dont know what the distant future holds for films - can you imagine holographic 3-dimensional films being made coupled with the necessary sound?
Pure pipe dreams?
Jon
Posted on: 26 August 2007 by Mr Underhill
Dear Frank,
Well balanced observations.
Why do some people have to be didactic and insulting?
Martin
Well balanced observations.
Why do some people have to be didactic and insulting?
Martin
Posted on: 26 August 2007 by Tuan
quote:Originally posted by Mr Underhill:
Dear Frank,
Well balanced observations.
Why do some people have to be didactic and insulting?
Martin
What rubbish!
Posted on: 26 August 2007 by bwolke
quote:Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Actually, of the 13 film studios, 11 have signed up for BluRay, 3 have signed up for HD-DVD. Of the 3 with HD-DVD, only one is exclusive to HD-DVD.
Dear Frank could you please post your source please?
I believe what you are saying about HD DVD is not true. I just had a look on the site of toshiba and there are at least 15 film studios releasing films on hd dvd http://www.toshibahddvd.co.uk/movie-titles.cfm
There is not only one filmstudio (Universal) exclusive to hd dvd last week Paramount and Dreamworks announced that they are going to release films on the HD DVD format exclusively.
http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/082007_exclusives.pdf
Looking forward to reading your source article.
Bas Wolke
Posted on: 04 September 2007 by Jono 13
Blue ray will win, probably, as it has been widely adopted by the porn industry as the format of choice. I seem to remember that this decision also affected the VHS/betamax war.
I could be talking rubbish of course but wait and see.
Jono
I could be talking rubbish of course but wait and see.
Jono
Posted on: 04 September 2007 by bwolke
What are you talking about? it is HD DVD that is adopted by the porn industry.
I'm not sure how much of a role this will play in this Format war because my bet is that most of the porn material is enjoyed over the internet and in the time of the VHS/Betamax war people did not have internet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePcCPtryCfU
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 1
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 2
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 3
I'm not sure how much of a role this will play in this Format war because my bet is that most of the porn material is enjoyed over the internet and in the time of the VHS/Betamax war people did not have internet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePcCPtryCfU
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 1
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 2
Porn's view - HD DVD vs Bluray part 3
Posted on: 04 September 2007 by Frank Abela
Bas,
My source was a chap in Panasonic, but having said that, this was a few months ago and things may have changed since then, especially since a) the lawsuit against Sony was announced and b) Paramount and Dreamworks announcement. Then again, that statistic was still being quoted in June. Have a look at http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=149 where the author reckons BluRay has won (which I don't believe incidentally).
My source was a chap in Panasonic, but having said that, this was a few months ago and things may have changed since then, especially since a) the lawsuit against Sony was announced and b) Paramount and Dreamworks announcement. Then again, that statistic was still being quoted in June. Have a look at http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=149 where the author reckons BluRay has won (which I don't believe incidentally).
Posted on: 04 September 2007 by bwolke
Thanks Frank,
I read the article. It is really funny how dated that article already is and it is only 2 and a half months old. The battle is far from over. I read that Venturer is going to release a HD DVD player for $199 before christmas. Venturer HD DVD Player: $199?
Regards
Bas Wolke
I read the article. It is really funny how dated that article already is and it is only 2 and a half months old. The battle is far from over. I read that Venturer is going to release a HD DVD player for $199 before christmas. Venturer HD DVD Player: $199?
Regards
Bas Wolke
Posted on: 05 September 2007 by Frank Abela
Bas
Unfortunately, I agree wholeheartedly. The reason it's unfortunate is that as long as there is doubt about the way forward I can't see the specialist manufacturers investing serious money in either format. The licensing alone is prohibitive for smaller companies. If they can't even guarantee that theirs is not a dead format, the risk must be too high.
Unfortunately, I agree wholeheartedly. The reason it's unfortunate is that as long as there is doubt about the way forward I can't see the specialist manufacturers investing serious money in either format. The licensing alone is prohibitive for smaller companies. If they can't even guarantee that theirs is not a dead format, the risk must be too high.