Anti-depressants

Fredrik

No I am not a Doctor, I wish I was because right now in the UK, it is an extremely lucrative occupation.

Other than when I dislocated my shoulder a few years back, I have had only a few days off sick.

I am not a superb physical specimen but I genuinely believe in mind over matter. If you want to feel ill, you will become ill, if you are determined to carry on, carry on you will.

I have only my own experience to fall back on but I have always believed in the old corny maxim of making an opportunity out of a crisis. If your outlook is positive your life will be positive. Simple as that.

Being depressed is the occupation of miserable sods and I am determined to be a happy old sod so happy I will be.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

As usual you give a commendably straight answer, so thanks for that. Though I don't necessarily share your conclusion! But I can say this, I have been close to the suicidal twice in my life: Firstly when I lost to an accident my Baroque (London pre 1780) Double-bass. I looked at my old Border Collie and thought, "Who is going to look after you!" And secondly when I quit Uni having run out of money (and confidence that I could do it, though I was given quite a bollucking for what I did by my Tutor, who became a personal friends afterwards) and become homeless for three weeks, and that was only two and a half years ago. I was sent to a counsellor, and a fat lot of good that did, but I had a serious problem, which I solved in 'your mind over matter' way, by getting stuck in. I was working, but without a home, and that is a strange thing!

But I do think there are people who are not quite as robust as I have been in this respect, and I can easily see that that can be the case.

Interestingly I had a medical this week, and I startled the Practice Nurse by regulating my heart rate (from about 70 down to about 42 in about two minutes simply by a form of relaxation I have discovered I can do), so I know that there is something in the mind over matter thing. I also have a degenerative retinal disease, which means the consultant wants me to have a LASER operation to cure the damage in my right eye, which has not done very well in the remissive stage that I am currently in. I put off the opperation till the autumn, in case it gets better, though the underling problem is incurable and will certainly more or less blind me. When I am strong, I know I can will things like that. I spoke to a friend who is a psychiatric nurese, and he said the whole issue is not understood, but there is evidence for it, and shortly I shall read the texts on the issue. But not everyone has that strength. There have been times when I did not have it. And so I can sympathise with those who are like me at my worst, when they are at their best, if you see what I mean!

Fredrik

Fredrik

I think you are proving my point. You became depressed because of a negativity. You resolve to do something because there is some fight left in you and you immediately adopt a more positive approach and you become more happy as a result.

I can understand you reticense in delaying the operation, but my advice is to go for it. You will have done something positive whereas if you procrastinate or even put it off, you will always ask the question....what if.... and you will become depressed.

You seem to already know the answers, so act on your own experience.

You have gone from being homeless and defeated to where you are now. That is a good achievement but look upon it as the first step of a long and rewarding journey.

Your life is what you make it.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

I really do think I can't be taken as a true example for you thesis! I fit in with it, but then I am blessed in many respects! Not luck, but certainly pluck.

Seeing what you wrote above about buying a property in Spain, I thought I would enclose a little jpg of my familly's little bit of Norway!

I intend to go there before too long again, as it is the most beautiful place I ever want ot see, and filled with lovely memories of my grandparents and favourite Aunt. The fishing is within the familly, and the huts (cabins in English) are all in the familly as well, so no strange folks running around where you don't want them... As I say, I am truely blessed, even if I shall never see a farthing of the futune that funded it all! But not everyone is so blessed, and I always try to remember it.

Fredrik

Wow wonderful place and view. That's the way it should be peaceful and natural.

Amen....I wanna go there!!

Yeah, that is some picture Fredrik. Even if I imagine it blowing with rain or hail it still looks good.

Possibly the only thing that could ruin it would be a consultant and a "developer".

I'm sorry chaps.

But whining and talking about *depression* in a hi-end hifi chat room does NOT seem to jive well.

I have a few friends with incurable illnesses and the way they keep the positive attitudes ( without unti-depressant ), no offence but, makes everything disucssed here somewhat trivial.

If there is a traumatic illness in the family I can understand the use of such drugs. I have a friend with a 2 year old son in coma and probably no hope for the recovery, she's taking anti-depressant, atm.

I don't even want to go into the financial stress a catastrophic illness causes.

Whilst I acknowledge hereditary mental illness that causes chronic depression, I suspect many are behaviral problems caused by weakness or lack of descipline.

Gee Kuma - let us in on the finer points of your theory of behaviourism why don't you? You "acknowledge" hereditary mental illness that "causes" chronic depression? Yet you have no comment to make on the physicians who diagnose these weak and ill-disciplined individuals?

So, what do *you* reckon comes first Kuma? Does the poor discipline and weak character cause a drop in the neurotransmitter levels at the synapse - or is it the other way around?

What do you reckon?

Deane,

I have no idea why many are getting depressed over what seems to be *nothing*.

Chemical imbalance maybe?
Hereditary illness is common, so, depression/suicidal behavior can be related to that perhaps?

Mental illness is probably the larger medical issues in that probably even the drs. have no answers for.

Do you have the answer for it?

When I see some depressed friends, I can try to cheer them up, but when it becomes to be a broken record, I just accept it as a character flaw.

Life is tough.
A weak character and lack of desciplien certainly do not make it easier.

I have to slap myself every now and then so I don't get into the self-pity *trap*.

Kuma

Perhaps the difficulty is in your first sentence - the assumption that depression is in reaction to an event or trauma. While it is true trauma and major life events do cause depressive illness, it is known (and I am no expert on nomenclature) as reactive depression as far as I know. Normally this type of depression resolves after a few weeks.

Depressive illness is another thing entirely. It does not tend to resolve by itself. It is not helped by decision making because motivation is affected. Hope is gone. From the sufferer's point of view there is no point in "snapping" out of it because, well, there is no point.

Depression, for the sufferer, is a deep, black pit. There is no energy for climbing out and it is impossible to find a good reason to lift oneself out of that pit.

It isn't self-pity and it isn't unhappiness. These are normal human characteristics or emotions. Depression is not a normal human characteristic or a fleeting emotion that can be dismissed.

quote:

Depressive illness is another thing entirely.

Yes. I realise that.
Some folks do need to be on the medication to even function normally. ( that's why I suspect clinial depression might be due to the chemical inbalance )

And those who are unfortunate are sometimes incapable of *snapping out of it*.

As I stated in my earlier thread, however, a modern society seems to rely on too heavily on medications rather than facing the core problems and avoiding the responsibility.

quote:

Depression is not a normal human characteristic or a fleeting emotion that can be dismissed.

The proper diagnosis is imporant to determine as the legitimate illness. There are too many doctors giving out make-me-happy pills too freely and I know too many who developed a dependancy on those drugs.

Kuma

Four western countries still practice leucotomy (lobotomy) for depression - as a last ditch attempt to treat the illness. Electro-convulsive therapy has worked for some as well.

I think you might be under a misapprehension as to what anti-depressant meds actually do. Anti-depressants lift mood - pills that make you happy are illegal in most countries

If a person is not depressed then anti-depressant medications will not produce anything but side-effects I shouldn't think.

quote:

Four western countries still practice leucotomy (lobotomy) for depression - as a last ditch attempt to treat the illness. Electro-convulsive therapy has worked for some as well.

I thought that at least in the US they stop doing the lobotomy.

A friend went under the Electro thingy. It might have cured her chronic depression, but she was never the same person once I knew after that.

quote:

I think you might be under a misapprehension as to what anti-depressant meds actually do. Anti-depressants lift mood - pills that make you happy are illegal in most countries

No.
I meant it as too many people use prescribed anti-depressant meds as if to numb the pain. ( sort of like using a morphine to cut the pain for a peper cut )

Granted, everyone's tolerance for pain differs, but there's definitely abuse going on. I see that as a cop out/easy way out for some. And that's nothing but an avoidance behavior.

Kuma wrote

quote:

But whining and talking about *depression* in a hi-end hifi chat room does NOT seem to jive well.

Why not? This is the Padded Cell, after all.

On the other hand, some of the dismissal of other people's intense and prolonged suffering, here, does seem pretty callous (along the lines of 'I'm alright Jack, and you just need to pull yourself together').

I'll give as an example for consideration, some data for Ireland which I am familiar with, noting that such regional differences are found when one compares other countries.

These figures are for suicides over the period 1989-1998. Males reach a peak in suicide rates at age 20-29 and females peak at 40-59. Rates in the Republic are generally higher than those in Northern Ireland. These regional, gender and age-related differences are hard to explain in terms of genetic and medical models of mental illness. Looking closer within the Republic of Ireland, I have also found excess suicide mortality in some health-board/city areas compared to others. I suggest that one needs to look to things like the social context of depression, health and psychological support services to begin to explain these differences.

Annual Suicide Deaths per 100000
----------------------------------------------------
0-19 years, Female, Northern Ireland, 0.79
0-19 years, Female, Republic of Ireland, 0.79
0-19 years, Male, Northern Ireland, 3.54
0-19 years, Male, Republic of Ireland, 4.28
20-39 years, Female, Northern Ireland, 4.07
20-39 years, Female, Republic of Ireland, 5.1
20-39 years, Male, Northern Ireland, 19.37
20-39 years, Male, Republic of Ireland, 28.55
40-59 years, Female, Northern Ireland, 6.65
40-59 years, Female, Republic of Ireland, 7
40-59 years, Male, Northern Ireland, 14.79
40-59 years, Male, Republic of Ireland, 22.79
60+ years, Female, Northern Ireland, 3.27
60+ years, Female, Republic of Ireland, 5.39
60+ years, Male, Northern Ireland, 12.71
60+ years, Male, Republic of Ireland, 18.14
-----------------------------------------------------


Nick

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
I'm sorry chaps.

But whining and talking about *depression* in a hi-end hifi chat room does NOT seem to jive well.

I have a few friends with incurable illnesses and the way they keep the positive attitudes ( without unti-depressant ), no offence but, makes everything disucssed here somewhat trivial.

You seem to forget that depression can be fatal.

Mick and kuma: if you actually want to make a positive contribution to this discussion, perhaps you would like to read something on the subject? A good choice is: Undoing Depression by Richard O'Connor. If you don't want to buy it then at least read the reviews at Amazon and, if possible, the introduction.

[I should add that I don't necessarily agree with everything O'Connor says - actually, I read it so long ago that I cannot remember but I agreed with and found useful much of it].

Mick and Kuma

I have to say that your beliefs about depressive illness come across as attacks on the sufferers' character - and imply that, as you both do not suffer from depression, your own character is of a superior type to the afflicted. Of course, you do allow for *some* actual depression to be in the world - but presumeably only the catatonic cases.

Catatonic depression! Now there's a thing. What are you suggestions for the catatonic cases of depression?

Deane

Deane

You said..."I have to say that your beliefs about depressive illness come across as attacks on the sufferers' character - and imply that, as you both do not suffer from depression, your own character is of a superior type to the afflicted.

I just think you presume too much. Neither Kuma nor myself have ever made such statements. All we are saying is a lot of this, but not all, contains an element of self pity. Sometimes people need to force themselves to do things and that builds morale fibre.

Regards

Mick

Mick

Please excuse me if I presumed too much - it was only to save time.

Now, however, you are suggesting that "moral fibre" needs to be built. If that is not a comment on character then I need to take English lessons.

Deane

Deane

If you keep attacking me I shall become depressed.

Mick,

What happened to ya? You used to be scrumptious, truly scumptious, but these days you're coming across like that nasty fellow on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang who kidnaps stray children.

Please, can we have the scrumptious, truly scrumptious, Mick back?

Joe

Mick

I have answered your points. You have merely reinterated you original position many times over. Do you have any answer to those on this thread who have tried to enter into a reasoned discussion with you? Any response to the points that have been made?

Deane

Maple syrup is scrumptious.

Truly scrumptious.

Joe

I cannot recall ever being scrumptious. Are you confusing me with Vuk ?

Regards

Mick