Favorite Bruckner

Herman,

3rd

I have a feeling you set me up on the 3rd, Haitink's is the 1877 version and Bohm's the 1889 (I think), so not a direct comparison. What was your problem with it?

6th

I've heard the Blomstedt, but a long time ago. Maybe I need to hear this again.

7th

Yes I was serious......

8th

Has no-one else heard the van Beinum? I thought this would be high on your list.

As for live performance of the 8th, one of the biggest problems you almost always find is that in almost every performance, even the best,theres always someone in the audience who clearly isn't enjoying the experience. 7th is a much easier starting place.

9th

I see Rattle and the Berlin Phil are doing Bruckner 9 in London in a months time - am I allowed to book a ticket??

BTW, I listened to the Jochum 1st movements of the 7th and the 9th last night. My recordings are from the Dresden Staatskappelle recordings which I think come from the early 80s, so not too distant from your recordings. The times for the 7th were all at least a minute (and in the Adagio 2 minutes) faster than your recording. The movement actually sounds too fast, but when you compare to other recordings, it's actually slower than most, so I think you're right that slower would probably work better. I'd not heard these for some time - he really brings out the colour and detail. His style with shifting the tempo I find a bit distracting, nevertheless well worht the listen. The recording quality is pretty bad - I can't believe the recording you've just purchased can be much worse. The 9th had similar qualities, although was a much speedier affair - definitely tempted me to listen to these two in full at some point in the near future. I actually hadn't played any Bruckner for some time, and it reminded me how wonderful his music is - a very pleasurable evening.

David

Bin diving for Bruckner

My Bruckner collection so far comprises 3 albums at a cost of no more than 75p per item – I bought them as a result of the first Naim forum Brukner fight many years ago:

No. 3 HVK / Berliner Philharmoniker (DG Digital 1981) – It pained me to buy a digitally recorded slab of vinyl, but I wasn’t going to walk past a mint one at 25p.

No. 7 Jochum / Berliner Philharmoniker (DG 1967 double) – got this on as I type. Sounds pretty cool, not that I know anything… 75p.

No. 9 Jochum / Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (Heliodor 1966) “electronically enhanced stereo” version of a 1955 performance, scary huh? 20p.

You can get a fair bit of Brukner for £1.20…

Tony.

Hi Tony,

I can win this one. I have Jochum's complete Bruckner DG set on vinyl + the complete Bruckner by Haitink and the Concertgebouw in a huge box with relief medaillon on the lid handed down to me by a friend with a huge collection who was switching to CD in 1983 and clearing out. So that's 25 mint lps FOR UTTERLY FREE!

(He has over 5000 CDs now or more and, that goes without saying, no life whatsoever. Problem is I'm still waiting for someone to clear out his or her LP12.)

Hi David,

You're right, I'm worse than a philistine. Both the Haitink and the Sinopoli Third are the early version of the score and it makes me very nervous. I have tried many times but I can't get used to the episodic nature of the early score, whereas the later one is perhaps the single most sexy and beguiling piece Bruckner wrote. (That white knight horn in the opening paragraph of the Adagio, faithfully holding on to the initial E against the sinking double basses!)

It's strange Chailly hasn't recorded this one yet, since it may be the one he has most affinities with, to judge by my concert experiences (the two times I heard Ch. do 3, he used the later score). It would be the one Chailly Bruckner I'd get. Apart from the nature of the early version my problem with the Haitink Third was it is very closely recorded with a imposing wall of sound. The Fifth I have by Haitink is more accessibly recorded.

Of course, by all means book your seat and go to Rattle and the Ninth. Book some extra hankies too, as it's bound to be an emotional scene. This a.m. I read a couple of reports in the English press about "our boy in Berlin", and I will refrain from any comments* to spare your Briton feelings, but let's just say I was gagging. This man is either the fingersnapping Messiah of today's symphony orchestra or just a poster boy with fast fading looks. We'll see.

Actually I think we've been over this before. Rattle is a great conductor to experience live. I think it's on recordings one begins to notice his hectoring lack of authenticity. He's not for keeps, but obviously a lot of hugely enjoyable condcutors aren't. No big deal.

[* I guess it didn't work out.)

Interesting to hear there was a Bruckner War in olden times. I'd say this is one of the most enjoyable music threads in a long while.

Herman

Herman,

So have you heard the 1873 version? Is that even further down your list of priorities.

I usually enjoy Rattle concerts, even if there's something about his style which I find a bit suspicious. He does also have this habit of underlining certain moments in a piece, which is a bit annoying.

The Bruckner 9 is going to be coupled with Schoenberg 2nd quartet for string orchestra (gulp). Anyway I was quite surprised to find that there are still tickets available - obviously the Berlin Phil doesn't have quite the pull it used to.

David

ross,

if music was wine i'd say. no problem ross i'll drink it all alone, heheheh. music's available to as many as want so... celibidache is not always great but certainly far from being dull. if you do not like him. fine. i like it.

herm,

this is not a question of being a girl. this is a question of "how much sleep do you get with an infant waking every three hours during the night and how does that make you feel at 11 pm?". i'll conquer the eighth without fear. i can take almost any kind of music. however, i'll check out fourth and seventh asap.

<i>The most important upgrade: Forget about your system. </i>

The talk of Furtwangler, Jochum et al is all very well but now that Gunter Wand is no longer with us, who do we go to for echt Bruckner?

The Rattle B7 I heard a couple of years ago struck me as being interesting but a 'work in progress'. Perhaps in another 20 years time. I don't find Rattle "hectoring" (herm's favorite expression in this context!) on record, but sometimes just a bit too careful. I just wish he would let rip occasionally. (I read the review of the Rattle/BPO concert in The Guardian and I have to say I was embarrassed at the sentiments expressed, much as herm hints. Interestingly it was reviewed by the Editor, not the music correspondent, so perhaps should be considered as News rather than a review) Rattle is no better but no worse than the currently active crop of conductors I have heard. Great recordings are all very well, but any recommendations of contemporary performers?

PS Anyone going to the Haitink/LSO B4 at the Proms tomorrow?

duncan

What? Are the Proms still on?

I guess I'll tune in to the Bruckner 4 tomorrow. Haitink has been conspicuously absent in this thread.

Today, after listening to the Wand Berlin B 9 I have, I tried to purchase the latest Bruckner Eight by Wand and the Berlin - checking four stores in the Hague, the Dutch gvt center, which was flooded by police forces, due to 9/11.

I guess there were some Wand afficianados among those cops, as this recording was completely unavailable all over town. So that's one more thing I'm blaming O.B. Laden for.

Herman

I did give a mention to Haitink re: 3, but that was somewhat dashed by you Herman! I have heard Haitink do a pretty creditable live 7th several years ago. I bought the supposedly highly rated Haitink Bruckner 5 which cames as a double with the Te Deum - it ended up back at the shop. Nevertheless, I think Haitink is pretty reliable, as is Chailly. I also heard a pretty good Bruckner 3 by Esa Pekka Salonen a few years ago - he doesn't seem to be spending too much time on this music at present.

Rattle I've heard a couple of times, and also have his recording - yes I agree with Duncan, but there is good potential there. I've booked my ticket for the 9th - £50!! . Maybe I'll stop going to concerts. The Rattle story, muted what is probably a more important change, and that is Antonio Pappano taking over as musical director of the Royal Opera House. My first impressions on "Ariadne auf Naxos" last night were very positive.

I listened to the Jochum Bruckner 9 yesterday, and now I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to get that Japan 7th recording. Anything else you'd recommend at the same time Herman?

David

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on THURSDAY 12 September 2002 at 16:42.]

You Betcha

"Anything else you'd recommend at the same time Herman?"

Today was my lucky day. I went to Amsterdam for a book party and first checked into Concerto on Utrecht St - possibly the best record store North of Paris and West of Berlin (and East of London, obviously). I was looking for the Wand Bruckner Eighth, which they naturally had, for two dollars less than Amazon.

However I looked up and spotted a box of live recordings of Bruckner Symphonies 4 / 5 / 6 by Eugen Jochum and the Concertgebouw Orchestra. I couldn&rsquot believe what I saw! This was the astounding Bruckner 5, the december 1986 concert I'll never forget, nor anyone else who heard it.

As the booklet says, at the end everyone was that ecstatic Jochum proposed to the orchestra leader to play the finale once more by way of encore. Twenty five minutes of strenuous music. (Perhaps some other time, the leader said.) Jochum was 85 at the time, and died three months after.

I'm listening to the sixth now (OK for the second time) and it's way up there. I've never heard a better performance of the finale, with energetic tremolos in the violas, and a perfectly natural way those Pooh-hum melodies are shaped.

Six years earlier (december 1980) this magnificent Sixth (great Coda of the adagio with visceral tympani strokes) displays possibly a little more energy than the Fifth. But I have to say in the Fifth the Concertgebouw O is, certainly from the second mvt on playing at such a celestial level, one is just wallowing in the sheer beauty of sound for every orchestral group. It's also a matter of how Jochum characterizes the differences between the symphonies.

What I paid for this (4 disc) box is the equivalent of 31 UKP. The code is TAH 440-443 (distr Harmonia Mundi). I'm not saying you should get it. All I'm saying I'm really glad I did.

I'm going to list the timings again (though we all know these things are relative)

B 4 (Jan 16, 1975): 17:56 / 16:07 / 10:12 / 20:29
B 5 (Dec 4, 1986): 22:13 / 20:48 / 13:54 / 25:40
B 6: (Nov 2, 1980): 17:35 / 18:49 / 8:02 / 13:45

Herman

Thanks Herman,

I'll gamble - I think I found the disc you are talking about on Amazon.fr. I'll tell you what I think when it arrives.

Enjoyed the Haitink Bruckner 4 last night.

David

Forgot the Haitink boradcast last night, shoot. Perhaps it'll be relayed early next week in the afternoon...

Sometimes it's quite profitable to hop between various Amazones, indeed. The French amazon does have the Bruckner box I was talking about, and at much less than what I paid in the store (29 rather than 48 euros). The Tahra label is based in Paris, I guess that's why.

At the price you're paying you can't go wrong.

Herman

the latest

It's strange. I don't think I have been this occupied with Bruckner for many years. My girlfriend has never heard the likes of this. Three times Bruckner Sixth and the next day two and half Eights.

So first Günter Wand and the Berlin Eight. I've listened to it twice, both yesterday and today, perusing the score, and I have to say it's a solid recommendation. With Wand you don't get Dionysic ecstacy. It's all in the mind. Same goes for Giulini, BTW. You could have fitted Giulini's directing movements in a shoebox in front of his ribcage. Perhaps the Adagio suffers a tad under Wand's restraint. However the first mvt is magnificent. Obviously it's a miraculous piece of music in any case. To a large extent it was designed to be a kind of prelude, preparing one for the Finale*, much later. So you can’t go all the way yet with the orchestra, and this is where an man like Wand excels.

Somehow I can’t help but long for the more idiosyncratic string sound of the Vienna Phil. Am I wrong to think the Berlin strings have been trained to such a degree of homogenuity that they are not as gripping as the Vienna or Amsterdam string sections? However the brass and woodwinds are extraordinary.

Thorsten, you should have noticed the first section of the development with those great exchanges between the various horns, tubas, trumpets, and trombones and all the strings do is just a little plucked accompanying.

I'm still as much amazed as twenty years back about that completely potty theme workout at the end of the development (fig O, about ten minutes into the first mvt) with the falling motiv starting hushed in the strings and ascending higher and higher till the entire orchestra is making those crazy leaps and bounds, drifting off in a butterfly solo for the flute. This is something Beethoven could have conceived for a string quartet, fifty long years back, perhaps, but not for huge orchestral forces and a public setting.

The scherzo's trio has the right rhythm V - vv / V - vv / V - vv. There's quite a bunch of conductors who take the life out of this bit by ignoring the pulse.

Jochum's 4 / 5 / 6 I have to say the 1975 Fourth in this box is the bad one. It suffers from Jochum's old-time tempo changes in the middle of a movt and somehow the rapport with the orchestra seems to be lagging. It's surprising, since one figures the Fourth to be the easy symphony. For me the stunner of the set is the Sixth. And the Fifth is, of course, famous. But I already knew that. I'm real interested to know what David thinks, but I guess that's going to take a while yet.

Jarrett unfortunately I don't have the Walter Seventh, sorry. However, if anyone else wants to talk about a Bruckner symphony, please do.

Herman

*BTW Vuk, earlier in this thread you said something about the sublime resolution of the fuga of the Eighth. However there is no fuga in this symphony. If you want to put a lable on it, the Finale is a sort of grandiose Rondo.

Amazon.fr has told me the Jochum set is on the way, so hopefully a review in the next few days.

However, I bumped into a cheap copy of the RCA Wand/BPO Bruckner 9 yesterday, and couldn't resist. Unfortunately despite the disc getting a lot of attention when it appeared, first impressions (one listen) are a bit disappointing. The interpretation seems a bit fussy and episodic. Comparisons with the 1990 Barenboim/BPO on Teldec are also interesting. Barenboim extracts more power from orchestra certainly captured better by the Teldec engineers. I'm wondering whether Herman's reservations about the homogeneity (or what to me sounds like over-richness) of the Berlin strings is something more specific to Berlin/Wand - something I've noticed before, for example on comparison of Wand's BPO Schubert 8th with his earlier recordings with the North German Radio Symphony Orchestra (I think) which I preferred. Anyway, I'll give it a few more listens....

David

During our holidays in the Andalucia mountains (home to my girlfriend's family) I was completely bereft of music, except for the single party where an astoundingly pretty niece (incidentally, in this region you'd be really hard put to locate, if you&rsquod wish, a woman that is not irresistible) danced a complicated Sevilleana.

(The radio in the car seemed to indicate there's nothing but jabber radio in Spain. TV looked like jabber radio too: I watched a thirty minute broadcast with the anchor talking talking talking to the camera non stop, no guests, no footage, not even one change of camera angle. The man was redefining the meaning of the word talk show.)

I have to say the silence was very entertaining.

One of the reasons lovers of classical music have several recordings of their favorite pieces is because one has an ideal picture in one's head of how they should sound. And there is no recording that entirely matches this ideal. That's why you get another one, and yet another one. That's my theory. I have maybe five or six Schubert Ninth Symphonies, and none is as good as what I hear when I let the music unfold in my head.

So that's what I'd been doing the past weeks up in those lovely sun-blanched mountain villages. I have been playing Bruckner 6 over and over in my head, and I think the Jochum recording mentioned above comes pretty close to the ideal. (For balance: the other music on my cerebral playlist was Fauré's 2nd violin sonata and the string quartet.)

I'm going to try to give my system more rest and I'm not going to think of upgrades for quite a while. Of course my system could be better easily, but it will never match what I hear when it's not playing at all.

Call it twaddle. It's just a lengthy prelude to my question, David, whether you did get a chance to listen to the Jochum recordings we were talking about, and how his 5 stands up to the Fürtwangler Salzb recording you like so much, and how Jochum's 6 compares to the Klemperer 6. I'm curious.

Herman

Herman,

I was anticipating this disc greatly - unfortunately when I opened the package, Amazon.fr had sent me the wrong discs - so I think it's going to be a while.

BTW, I think my ideal Schubert 9, would be a bizarre synthesis of Toscanini, Furtwangler and Wand, with some additional direction from me.

David

Bummère, as they say in France.

Herman,

......no they've still not arrived, but I thought you'd be interested in THE Rattle concert.

You will be disappointed to hear that it was a truly memorable evening. It seems that for now at least, the Berlin Phil has swallowed all the hype that was in the programme notes, as the playing was inspired. In fact, I have never heard them play better.

First half was Schoenberg's string/vocal arrangement of his String Quartet no 2. I don't think I'd heard this before, and must admit I'm usually pretty dubious about these sort of arrangements. All I can say about the work itself was that it certainly warrants further investigation. Maybe I'll invest in a set of the quartets when I've got through my Bartok/Vegh and Mozart/Italiano sets. Anyway, the string playing had a perfect mix of ensemble, focus, colour and power to suggest we were in for something special in the second half.

A note on orchestral layout. I've seen Rattle use this a few times now, but the double basses were lined up at the back of the orchestra. Maybe it takes the Berlin Phil to make the difference, but this really worked. Rather than the supporting noise you generally get, they really came into their own right. Anyway, it reminded me of some of Furtwangler's old recordings which are built from the bass up.

In the first movement of Bruckner 9, brass and woodwind took a little time to adjust to being on stage. It was also the least satisfactory part of the performance. I think Rattle is going for drama - he's certainly not going for a spiritual interpretation. I think you mentioned that one commentator had said the performance was too loud in the Concertgebouw - this I can imagine. It was one of the loudest (in the best possible sense) concerts I have ever been to. I'd guess this was part of the whole interpretation.

The scherzo was just astounding - Festival Hall is one of the dryest acoustics you could ever play in - there is no place to hide. The Berlin Phil played so well, there was no need to. From what I heard on the radio, I was expecting great things from the Adagio. The playing of the strings in this movement (a great showcase anyway) I expect is as good as I will ever hear. As for the rest of the orchestra, before the last great climax, you get that waspish theme that is tossed between all different sections in the orchestra which gives some sort of hint that the climax itself will not be triumphant. The agility that this was played was spellbinding, the climax incredibly intense. Rattle did not ponder on the coda - almost as if to make the point that a fourth movement should have been written. Horn playing at the end was wonderful.

So Berlin Philharmonic playing 10/10 Rattle's interpretation 7/10

A friend who went the next day to the Mahler/Haydn reported that this concert was not so good. As for Rattle being the best Haydn conductor - surely he hasn't done enough for such an accolade.

And as a final (audio) point - location of instruments from a depth perspective was near impossible. Soundstage certainly wasn't something that I thought was at all important.

David

Thanks, David,

For this extensive report. And why would I be disappointed if the concert was this good? I have always said Rattle is great for the excitement he brings to the stage. It's just that there's only one or two records of his I play at home.

Apart from the celli across the back, the violins were seperated left and right, weren't they? I think I read this in the Independent, who's reviewer remarked on the loudness too.

All I can contribute is I did get to listen on the radio to the Mahler IV by Haitink and the Concertgebouw last Sunday, and even had the presence of mind to make a tape of it for repeated listening. The Concertgebouw seems to have a special relationship to this work. First time it was performed, by Mengelberg, it was played in a double bill. Mahler IV before the intermission, and Mahler IV after the intermission. Just to get used to it.

Haitink's performances last week were dedicated to the memory of the prince-hubby who was buried today. And perhaps there was a mournful shade to the way the third rühevoll mvt was played, in big breathing phrases swelling and subsiding, like the entire orchestra was your best friend walking beside you whispering in your ear with forty strings at a time.

Unfortunately the singer (Frittoli) was miscast for the finale, too high strung etc. It's hard to achieve the childlike innocence needed for this piece; Bonney was closer a couple years back (she recorded it with Chailly), and I have a recollection of Heather Harper with Lorin Maazel and the Vienna Phil ten or twelve years back that was perfect. (Maazel's recording with Kathleen Battle is perfect too in this respect, although the early digital is pretty hard to swallow.)

Herman

Herman,

Yes violins were left and right, with cellos on the left (behind first) and violas on the right(behind second). Antiphonal violins has to be a good thing.

Disappointed - I think we all want to prick the publicity bubble a bit. There's a dreadful advert on the TV at the moment for the Mahler 5, along the lines of The Best Conductor, with the Best Orchestra, playing the best......

The write-up in the FT was quite good - he pointed out that they spent so much effort with the write up in the programme notes about the new partnership that they forgot to include the words to the Schoenberg quartet.

David

This way of seperating the strings was standard in Russia, as one can tell by the start of the finale of the Pathétique, when the strings play two completely different lines that sound as one. Mravinsky and Jansson used to have the Leningrad / Petersburg Phil this way when they visited the West.

BTW I checked my tape closet and it would appear that the Vienna Mahler Four was by the Mr Unflappable Muti, and the soprano was Barbara Bonney, and apparently it was from april 1995, as I found out checking the Vienna Philharmonic playlist on the www.

So the only thing I got right was that the soprano had an alliterative name.

I saw a print ad for the Rattle disc, but on TV? How are they going to earn that kind of money? EMI is a scary company. Pushing hard and remaindering hard...

Herman

No.8 / Chailly / Concertgebouw

Christian

So please tell us a little more, Christian

Originally posted by herm:
So please tell us a little more, Christian


Herman,
I'm afraid your curiosity might be diappointed by this. I'm just a simple listener with quite individual ears and a particular taste. I neither have the professional skills nor do I have the ambition to make an essay of a piece of music. All I can state is, if I like it or not. Same with paintings or other kind of art.
Thanks for your interest anyway

Christian

Come on Christian,

Just a bit more. I don't know whether this goes beyond the bounds, but when you say it's your favourite, compared to what other performances you've heard.

David

David,

The eighth compared to the other Bruckner symphonies, Chailly compared to Karajan (deutsche Grammophon-version) and to Celibidache (EMI-version). Satisfied?
Regards
Christian