Favorite Bruckner

I caught the second half of this recording on a Monday night broadcast about a month ago. I will not be buying it. Chailly brings out the winds pretty well and articulates everything nicely, but the recording seems a little middle-of-the-road, if you will. Nothing was especially inspired. The very end of the symphony, so important for wrapping the work up, seemed workmanlike, to me. The performance wasn't bad (and the sound quite good), but it lacks the grandeur of say, Giulini, the other-wordliness of Celi, or the incisiveness of Boulez.

Christian,

Many thanks. I have quite a few of Chailly's Bruckner recordings - on the whole he's pretty reliable. I did see him perform the 8th a couple of years ago, and was quite disappointed on the day, which is why I've never investigated much further.

Not quite sure why you mentioned it in the first place though. In isolation, about as interesting as one of Vuks lists.

David

...as I mentioned above it's BRUCKNER's 8th and NOT Chailly's 8th!

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:
Chailly's 8th

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Ahhhh.

Then, I'll only commend you on your excellent musical taste

David

Thank you David!
Since I am on this forum, everytime I read one of your posts concerning classical music, I think that you seem to have it both: great knowledge about this field and a select taste too.
(My comment above was going to Todd)
Regards

Christian

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Originally posted by rch:
you seem to have it both: great knowledge about this field and a select taste too.

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Apart from that he's got a whiff of irony, when the occasion calls for it, and most importantly for this thread, he's is dying to tell us about this box of Jochum recordings - it's just he doesn't know where to start.

Herman

OK, I hereby commit to writing a review of the Jochum Bruckner box-set tomorrow.

Tune in 12:30 GMT (oops)

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on WEDNESDAY 04 December 2002 at 09:33.]

Clearly we're experiencing some computer problems.

Sorry Herman,

Dutch publishing company, my daughter and Connex South East conspired against me writing this.

OK – finally a review of the Eugen Jochum Bruckner box set. For those that are interested, this is a Tahra set of live performances of Symphony No 4 (1975), No 5 (1986) and No 6 (1980) with the Concertgebouw. Herman was so enthusiastic about these, I had to get them, but was slightly scuppered when Amazon.fr sent me the wrong box set.

Where to start? I’ve mentioned on this thread before that I have a few of Jochum’s recordings – they’ve always seemed up there, but not quite vying with the best. These recordings certainly set the record straight. The real surprise for me is how different the approaches to these symphonies are. Usually if you’ve heard a conductor’s approach to 7, you’ve got a pretty good idea how 8 or 9 will sound. Couldn’t be more different with this set. Whether this was how Jochum approached every live performance, or whether his view changed significantly over the 10 years of these performances, I don’t know. With limitless funds, I might invest in an earlier 5th. I’m hoping Herman or someone else will do this for me. As to the recordings – the sound goes from the acceptable, if slightly bass-lumpy on 4 and 6, to the excellent on 5. Orchestral playing ranges on this set from the obviously live, but generally good standard on 4, to the near immaculate on the 5th.

On to the performances, the 4th is 3/4 of a good performance, the 6th very good, the 5th is so good, I would buy this set for this performance alone. Jochum has a very flexible approach to tempo and with Bruckner this can be dangerous if it turns the music into a series of episodic chunks. Starting with the disappointing then, Jochum falls into this trap in the 4th which until the finale, is as good as almost any performance I know. Unfortunately in the finale there are a series of gear changes that seem to lose the momentum.

On to the 6th, and whilst I’m not quite as enthusiastic as Herman is about this version it is excellent – and there are not many 6ths that are worth talking about, so it’s a very welcome addition. What comes across in this performance is how well all the sections play together – there’s lots in this recording that I’ve simply not heard before. Theres’ also a warmth and refinement in the middle movements that my leading contender, Klemperer cannot match. Going back to the Klemperer, the sound and approach sound primitive in comparison. Where Klemperer wins for me is in the way he slowly notches up the tension as the symphony progresses. It’s close and I would also have liked just a little more rhythmic impetus in the finale from Jochum – anyway, glad to have this in my collection.

The 5th is a phenomenal performance, and it comes across as a very special live event. I’m not really sure why, but this is obvious even in the first few bars. The playing is just sublime, and it's the one where most of the tempi changes really work (although I'm slightly dubious about the ending chorale). I really wouldn’t be able to do this performance justice in words, I’ll steal one of Herman’s – in that in a very different way, it matches the Furtwangler Salzburg performance – where Furtwangler is intense, Jochum is celestial. If you like Bruckner 5, you really should get this set. As for me, I will be seeking out any other performances I can get my hands on of Jochum conducting Bruckner from 1986.

David

Here is a link to a review of this concert that I just found, which is a good read. It also confirms my suspicion that Robert Simpson was referring to Jochum in his book "The Essence of Bruckner" re: the tempo of the chorale.

David

Thanks, David, for your report. I'm glad you like the box, and of course I'm particularly happy you agree about this performance of the Fifth, which has, in different guises, been such a treasure in my collection.

Impressively thorough review in the link, though no doubt you're a little puzzled the Salzburg Fifth by Furtwängler is not mentioned. Also I'm pretty sure he's mistaken about Jochum encoring the finale in Amsterdam. Unfortunately I was not in the concerthall (Seinfeld's George Costanza: "People this stupid shouldn't be allowed to live!") but the concert was broadcast live, and I know there was a lot of applause (obviously this was one of the last times people were going to see Jochum, who'd been such a support in Haitink's early years), but there is no way in hell the Concertgebouw is going to do a 25 minute encore, ever. On international tours they toss in some encores to display the various sections one more time, but as far as I know they never encore in Amsterdam. Usually they're faster out the door than I.

Last night I got out my copy of The Diary of Samuel Pepys (that used to belong to my mother's eldest brother b. 1916), and found a 1954 concert program for the Concertgebouw Orchestra on a Tuesday night in February, Raphael Kubelik conducting the overture Coriolan, and Bruckner's Third. In between the Mozart 459 concerto with the dutch composer / pianist Hans Henkemans. Seats were about half a pound (as before seventies oil crisis). Instead of reading the Pepys, I sat staring at the program for a while, as if one could will oneself back half a century.

Herman

Herman,

I enjoyed the link - I'll forgive him the absence of Furtwängler, in fact just for him I will attempt to suffer listening to the Karajan once more. I've really never liked that version - maybe I'll change my mind.

I'm certainly going to seek out that 1986 Bruckner 7. Do you know anything about the the 1987 Bruckner 9 - I know it's not Concertgebouw.

Apparently at the Proms many years ago, Stowkowski encored the finale of Mahler 2. Can't imagine any conductor doing something so politically uncorrect these days.

Finally, when discussing these comparative versions, it's always a sobering thought that Bruckner never got to hear this symphony.

David

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Originally posted by David Hobbs-Mallyon:
I'm certainly going to seek out that 1986 Bruckner 7. Do you know anything about the the 1987 Bruckner 9 - I know it's not the Concertgebouw.

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I'm wondering too where in Europe one gets these Sankt Florian discs (the latest Parnassus catalogue didn't have any).

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Finally, when discussing these comparative versions, it's always a sobering thought that Bruckner never got to hear this symphony.

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Nor did he ever get laid, apparently.

Another sophistication fallacy in this excellent link is the suggestion that these recordings were spliced from two performance nights. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Except for the mikes, Dutch radio facilities aren't permanent in concert halls like the Amsterdam Concertgebouw or the Rotterdam Doelen. They set up a mobile studio outside the hall on the particular day, and that's all they do.

Herman

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Nor did he ever get laid, apparently.

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...nor the place to discuss his teenage girl obsession.

Couldn't face the whole of this 5, so just listened to the finale again last night. Awful - why is this version rated at all, horrible sheen, rasping brass - sound is appalingly bad as well, with the sort of acoustic trickery you got around this time.

Then put on the Furtwängler...wonderful.

David

I just heard the Bruckner 7th tonight by LA Phil conducted by Zubin Mehta. Interesting work and glad I went to the talk beforehand to understand more about it. Two long slow movements followed by two faster shorter ones. Kind of an AABB senario. Certainly was a beautiful performance and live orchestras are wonderful. Zubin has been a local favorite for a long time since the 70's when he was principal conductor of the Phil.

I kept trying to relate my Naim gear to the sound reproduction. All right, those first two movements were 20 minutes a piece, so I had time to wander mentally. Naim certainly does it well. The sound stage from the balcony is limited in depth I thought, similar to my kit. Distinct coloration from different parts of the orchestra such as the drone of basses,violins, and brass section. Listening to my system I get all those details that are offered in a live performance and the feel of umph und strang that perk your ears up.

However, I did not get the feeling that I really had to get a recording of it. To me it's too much of the old. I do like Mahler and am more of a 20th century type of guy. Give me Bartok and Stravinsky any day. Bruckner seemed like he was summing up the previous century of work and not really expressing the new. Beautiful moments to it as it meandered and built up to it's climaxes.