nDAC - can you hear a difference?

Hi Andy,
here are my 2 cents...

- Can you hear a difference between different transports?
>> yes, even my wife could here :-)
- What transports have you tried?
>> mac mini, apple tv, linn ds streamer, ipod (with upnp)...i could even here the dif. between opitcal and copper
- What rank would you place on the transports?
>> source first is the rule:-)

Ralf
edit: and an old dvd player with optical ...

are the 16 pages of the "Why is the NDac so cheap" thread not enough?

Dead horse beaten, again, and again.... poor thing.

Yes....

1) Squeezebox Touch
2) CD5 XS
3) USB Stick
4) Ipod
5) Apple TV

(1) and (2) were slightly better in 16 bit ...... (5) was much worse all around

quote:

Just thought the results may be interesting to nDAC users present and future

Not really

Don't care whether anybody else can hear a difference or not - I prefer one source over another so I'll use the one I prefer - hope that's OK.

I was so tired of hearing transports
Always wanting something I never could get
The difference is an illusion; the difference is a dream
But I cannot hear what the difference is
Everybody's happy nowadays
Bet you are tired of hearing transports
Always wanting something you never can get
The difference is no illusion; the difference is not a dream
Now you can hear just what the difference is
Everybody's happy nowadays

Yes it is brave new world of digital audio

Mos def.

In fact it was my search for a transport for my Benchmark DAC that lead me to my first piece of Naim kit; a CD5XS. I now have the nDAC as well.

Suffice it to say, the transport has a huge bearing on the end result.

Of my sources -
Best - CD5XS
Next Best - MacBook Pro via optical (straight itunes/AIFF)

An aside; I have a Powerline on trial. For me the PL works best on the CD5 vis-a-vis the nDAC.
The old source first chestnut.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

Just thought the results may be interesting to nDAC users present and future

Not really

Don't care whether anybody else can hear a difference or not - I prefer one source over another so I'll use the one I prefer - hope that's OK.

Snap. Mind you I think French reds are vastly over-rated.

quote:

quote:
Just thought the results may be interesting to nDAC users present and future
Not really

Don't care whether anybody else can hear a difference or not - I prefer one source over another so I'll use the one I prefer - hope that's OK.


Snap. Mind you I think French reds are vastly over-rated.

Tough room today!!

Hi Andy,

Just got my DAC and have been playing around with different inputs.
Firstly I bought the DAC on the basis of a USB stick sounding better than CD5xs playing through the DAC. Demo lasted 30 mins but I'd made my mind up in less than 3.
Now I've had a play with cheap coax and cheap optical SPDIF order of preference is

1)optical
2)coax
3)USB (Corsair)
4)CD5XS as transport

PC is running windows 7, EAC to rip, Foobar to playback.
Hardware is 4 seagate HD's running in raid 0, Gigabyte Mainboard (ICH8 southbridge I think), ESI Julia soundcard and a 550W PS (I'd be very interested to hear what others think is important to sound quality and upgradeable here)

Raid 0??? You are not protected.

Run in Raid 1 or simply use 2 drives and copy everything to the other 2 use SyncToy or something.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Raid 0??? You are not protected.

Run in Raid 1 or simply use 2 drives and copy everything to the other 2 use SyncToy or something.

I have a seperate backup PC running Linux - Syncback to keep me safe!

Last december I auditioned the following setups at my dealers shop:

quote:

- Naim DAC + Squeezebox v3
- Majik DS
- Majik DS + Naim DAC

My findings: Majik DS being very good and Majik DS + Naim DAC being even better with a typical Naim sound. The SB + DAC didn't convince me however, so there must be more to a digital source than playback jitter alone ("SYNC" was lit all the time). My only explanation is that there must be suboptimal digital filters inside the SB prior to the digital output (the SB at least does digital volume control and probably more).

Regarding your poll:

quote:

- Can you hear a difference between different transports?

Yes, at least between Majik DS and SB. The SB was not as open and relaxed as the DS, uneasy. I did no blind testing.

quote:

- What transports have you tried?

SqueezeBox v3 and Majik DS, both with optical cable into the DAC.

quote:

- What rank would you place on the transports?

It is very important, thus making the Naim DAC not so cheap at all. Perhaps in the same league as a good analogue interconnect.

quote:

- Did you expect there to be a difference when you tried different transports?

I hoped there wouldn't be, because that would have allowed me to keep the Squeezebox solution, which IMHO is much less hassle to set up and use than UPnP.

quote:

Originally posted by mike k burke:
1)optical
2)coax
3)USB (Corsair)
4)CD5XS as transport

Hi Mike, not quite sure what you're saying here - are you saying the best sound quality is PC via optical?

Also, did you expect there to be a difference in sources?

Thanks to those that answered politely and the questions that were asked. My intent is not to grind any axes, just to get peoples views.

Hi Andy,

Yes, PC with optical so far is the best for me, difference to Coax not huge - had to flick between them a number of times to be sure. (10m run of cable may not help coax in this comparison).
I was slightly suprised that USB stick did not sound as good as optical having read some of the other posts, but it sounded a little muddled in comparison. Bear in mind this was the same USB stick and tracks that I had used in the shop to decide if to buy the DAC or upgrade my CD player in the first place.

Also suprised that not many people were getting better results with their PC's. Prior to getting my DAC, the PC was sounding better than my CD3 just using a phono/Din connection to my preamp. The DAC has just rendered my CD3 redundant except for use by the kids.

All this is why I am interested in people's PC setups to find out what influences the sound quality the most

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
Thanks to those that answered politely and the questions that were asked. My intent is not to grind any axes, just to get peoples views.

I assume you are trying to understand if/how there can be a difference between transports when jitter is eliminated. That's a valid and interesting question and I can't see why people would argue inpolitely about this.

Please tell us if you find an explanation. Personally I guess it must be different digital filters/processing inside the transports.

quote:

Originally posted by jfritzen:
I assume you are trying to understand if/how there can be a difference between transports when jitter is eliminated. That's a valid and interesting question and I can't see why people would argue inpolitely about this.

I agree with that, I also want to understand whether, why and to what extent there are differences between transports fed to the nDAC.

quote:

Please tell us if you find an explanation. Personally I guess it must be different digital filters/processing inside the transports.

There should not be any filter/processing inside the transports, otherwise the transport would not be bit perfect. A transport's job is to transport the data identical to the original to the DAC.

The theory is that since the jitter introduce by DAC no longer matters, the only difference is the level of electrical noise the transport pass along by the transport. The questions are (a) Is this noise for real? Or is this a solution looking for a problem? (b) To what extent does it affect the sound?

If transports really do affect the sound adversely, then the USB stick can surely be the panacea? Assuming that the player inside the nDAC is bit perfect?

A lot of unanswered questions there, which I assume are not easy to answer. If it is, surely Naim HQ would come out and clear things out?

Since things are not so simple,I surmise that a survey of this sort would not hurt. It probably does not excite Naim HQ much since they have transports to sell. But the beauty of this whole thing is no one can ever prove one way or another. So no harm done and no need to go postal over this

quote:

Originally posted by jfritzen:
I can't see why people would argue inpolitely about this.

I think it's a case of what goes round comes round. My findings are detailed in the relevant threads. Read them. And I personally don't give a toss what anybody else thinks as long as I'm happy.

1) CD5XS
2) USB-stick
3) Harman Kardon DVD 37

Sometimes 1) and 2) change their places...

I regards to cables:

1) DC1
2) Silent Wire
3) Oehlbach

Never tried optical.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
...A lot of unanswered questions there, which I assume are not easy to answer. If it is, surely Naim HQ would come out and clear things out?
...

Just curious...in the history of this forum, has "Naim HQ" ever posted?

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
1) CD5XS
2) USB-stick
3) Harman Kardon DVD 37

Sometimes 1) and 2) change their places...

I regards to cables:

1) DC1
2) Silent Wire
3) Oehlbach

Never tried optical.

YOU should deffo try optical - best results for me so far....

Not necessary.
Love my setup.

And by the way,
the HK DVD37 is very good, but no way near the CD5XS through the nDAC.

Naim's clearly implies differences and may mention it in private. They are publicly understated about their bits and let the performance speak to it.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Naim's clearly implies differences and may mention it in private. They are publicly understated about their bits and let the performance speak to it.

In other words, no, Naim do not post here. Ever.

I understand completely that manufacturers need to draw a line between private and public communications, and that the latter is fraught with misinterpretation, etc. All manufacturers err on the safe side here.

Would still love to see a natural evolution of the "recommended systems" concept into full blown case studies. Nothing more powerful than a reference sale, and who wouldn't enjoy reading a well-written story of how a Naim-centric stereo system was built over time?

Including, of course, the subjective results of multiple listening tests and why, for example, an optical cable proved best versus BNC for that particular customer's Naim DAC source, etc...

Hook

Adam and Paul Stephenson and Richard Dane are not Naim HQ?

And their opinions are not that private. Richard, as mentioned, once worked at Naim but I don't think his opinions 'official'. I believe the staff is perfectly willing to opine at shows etc. It's just that once you start with a lot of subjective info on a forum, the onslaught would never end. Be happy they make good things and are discerning. The hard part is done.

There are numerous examples when company managers and engineers are/were deeply involved in forum discussions. Worth mentioning Paul McGowan (PS Audio), Sean Adams (ex. Slim Devices), Peter Qvortrup (ANUK) and ... Julian Vereker.