Genius?

Miles Davis. Not only did he play the trumpet particular nicely, but he had an extraordinary gift for picking talented individuals (the list of ex-Davis sidemen is a distinguished one) and then taking music to wonderful new places. Others would doubtless nominate John Coltrane too, certainly I think India is a composition that more than merits it, but I will leave it for those who know him better.


Beethoven. Bernstein (arguably another) put it well when he suggested the genius of his music was not so much in that he surprised the listen (something easily enough accomplished), but rahter that once he'd done it, it seemed the absolutely logical thing to have done - take the way he chooses to open the 4th piano concerto with the instrument alone - and I often find myself asking why more don't start this way.

I'd also put in a nod for Mahler. The way he knew how to orchestrate - and consequently the amout he could do with arguably quite simple and unremarkable themes, is extraordinary. Just listed to the first symphony and you'll see how the page suggests something much simpler than is heard.

I could go on for some time (Giulini - see other thread) but, (un)fortunately, depending on your perspective, my dinner is ready.


regards, Tam

Plant / Page -> Led Zep
Lenon / McCartney -> Beatles
Rogers / Kossoff -> Free
Bob Marley
Bob Dylan
David Bowie
James Taylor
Neil Young
Ray Charles
Elvis

the usual suspects will continue to make up the enormous list - others can add more....

Peter

I'm not really sure what a Genius is? Maybe the guy who invented the wheel was one. A musical genius is hard to say - is it a composer who creates the most intricate of works or the most clever of lyrics. I would find it very hard to distinguish between a musical genius and a songwriter or composer that I simply liked.

Anon probably wrote the best ever songs. My thoughts being that the song survived purely on its merits and not on the reputation of its author. Everybody who has read a few my posts realises I consider Nigel Blackwell to be the greatest living songwriter (of the ones I've heard and am able to understand) and Leoš Janáček to be a truly great composer. So perhaps they are both geniuses (or is that genii) and there are a great many others, no doubt.

So my vote is for Shirley Collins who brought music alive for me. She should be Dame Shirley Collins - they give honours to politicians and business men for just doing a job they get exceedingly well paid for, but somebody who is truly great, and has done more for good than any politician or business man, gets ignored (rant over). Shirley Collins is still alive, still well and gets my vote as a true musical genius.

Only one choice, Brian Wilson.

JImmy Page. He was London's most sought after session guitarist when he was not long out of short trousers.
And Jimmy Webb

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan?

A singular talent, his finest performances have a genuinely astonishing quality.

True genius surely requires evidence of precocious ability, how many of those we've suggested so far had that?

Prince is another who seems to have a fairly special talent (although his work does diddly squit for me).

Prince- not much the guy can't do musically.

Second for Miles Davis
Ornette Coleman
Bill Laswell
Klaus Schulze
Lee Scratch perry

Diccus

Just noticed you nominated Madonna. Her only genius has been to achieve her celebrity with so little actual creative talent. I'm sure many would say she was a great entertainer but natural musical genius? Poppycock!

Bruce. (Picking a fight)

I like the definition of genius which includes the element of surprise.

We all, even geniuses, go through peaks and troughs, so my list shouldn't not be taken to be unreserved admiration. These are people who've had some sustained moments in the bright sunshine which surprises you on walking out of a dark building (and most of them have been mentioned already).

Davis
Hancock
Shorter
Zawinul
Dylan
Lennon / McCartney
David Byrne
Tom Waits
Neil Young
Steve Stills
Steve Winwood
Richard Thompson
Eric Clapton
John Martin
Robbie Robertson
Jack Bruce
Jaco Pastorius
Joni Mitchell
Bob Marley
Van Morrison
Stevie Wonder
Lowell George
Keith Jarret
Hendrix
Prince
Becker/Fagen
Jagger / Richards
Smokey Robinson

And ... yes ... I'll chuck my hat in for a fight ...

Broooooce

Mmmmm ...? Who have I forgotten. I reckon I could probaby rotate the works of this little lot for a long time and throw away the other few hundred CDs.

NOT a genius.

Madonna (I agree)
Brian May (I've still not stopped laughing about Costello referring to him as being the guitar equivalent of Roy Castle and the trumpet)

quote:

Mmmmm ...? Who have I forgotten.

Lots of very good songwriters to add to your list: Nigel Blackwell, Syd Barrett, Kevin Ayres, Ray Davies, John Fogerty, Tom Lehrer, John Linnell and John Flansburgh, Phil May, Christy Moore, Jake Thackery, Scott Walker, John Weinzierl and Chris Karrer, and Robert Wyatt.

John Dowland and Thomas Tallis should at least get a mention

It's impossible to make a list - I wouldn't like to limit myself to a list.

I'm still not sure about the word genius though.

Always enjoy your postings ROTF.

You have great, ecletic tastes, and enough enthusiasm and conviction to make me want to pursue some of the things you mention.

Lists are, of course, completely ridiculous, but ... can be a lot of fun ... if you don't take them too seriously!

We could go and look for the dictionary definition of genius and I'm not sure it would help. I was trying to think of people who had surprised me, even shocked me, with their music, their intelligence, .

However, in a contradictory fashion, I also remember Paddy McAloon (correct spelling?) talking about great songs, presumably ones of genius, and talking about how they had an inevitability. He cited the example of Roy Orbinsons 'Crying' (it IS a great song) and said how it seemed that each line could only possibly be followed by the line which did, indeed, follow it. I hope this makes sense.

I think it is also a good way of explaining the genius of Frank Sinatra, Bach, MacCartney ... Gershwin, Cole Porter ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Diccus

Just noticed you nominated Madonna. Her only genius has been to achieve her celebrity with so little actual creative talent. I'm sure many would say she was a great entertainer but natural musical genius? Poppycock!

Bruce. (Picking a fight)

I think madonna is a genius whether in marketing her product in a very clever way or being in the right place at the right time with her different, mainly dance/pop based music. She has put out some crackin' pop singles and a couple of genuinly excellent albums. She clearly has had help over the years from very talented producers/mixers and musicians but she has generally always kept ahead of the game and produced imo polished pop music for her generation. I think she has also moved the pop music goalposts for females in a way that no one else has done and as at times Siouxsie, patti Smith and others have rebelled and pushed their genre to limits particular by utilising sex in her music. Women with balls beating men at their own game?

IMO she has made some of the best pop music consistantly in the last 20 years.

As you say Bruce maybe her genius lies in being an entertainer rather than a pure musician which i think is a good point. She does it in a way that Robbie does in appealing to the masses and tapping that vein. I guess genius comes in many guises.

Diccus (gloves off )

quote:

Originally posted by Messenger:


However, in a contradictory fashion, I also remember Paddy McAloon (correct spelling?) talking about great songs, presumably ones of genius, and talking about how they had an inevitability. He cited the example of Roy Orbinsons 'Crying' (it IS a great song) and said how it seemed that each line could only possibly be followed by the line which did, indeed, follow it. I hope this makes sense. ..

....... and bless him Paddy lives in Co. Durham without a record deal and having sold only a few copies of his last solo album. His inspiration, intelligence and wit are missed.

Diccus

Leonard Cohen. Anyone who can write

"Don't Go Home With Your Hard-On"

Ah but don't go home with your hard-on
It will only drive you insane
You can't shake it (or break it) with your Motown
You can't melt it down in the rain

Hallelujah

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew her
She tied you
To a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

and Chelsea Hotel No. 2

I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel,
you were talking so brave and so sweet,
giving me head on the unmade bed,
while the limousines wait in the street.
Those were the reasons and that was New York,
we were running for the money and the flesh.
And that was called love for the workers in song
probably still is for those of them left.

Ah but you got away, didn't you babe,
you just turned your back on the crowd,

Is a genius compared to most - Madonna ha!

Steve - just need to nip and find me gloves.

quote:

Originally posted by Diccus62: Madonna Diccus (gloves off )

Not forgetting Phil Collins (around Buster era - genius doesn't live forever) [neither does Guiness but that's another story], Chris De Burgh, Daniel O'Donnell. When you think about it the list is endless

Dear Steve,

I completely agree that Cohen is a genius - a more interesting question is whether this genius is as a musician or as poet?

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGa:

quote:

Originally posted by Diccus62: Madonna Diccus (gloves off )

Not forgetting Phil Collins (around Buster era - genius doesn't live forever) [neither does Guiness but that's another story], Chris De Burgh, Daniel O'Donnell. When you think about it the list is endless

Wow Steve you're taking super groups again: Phil Collins, Chris De Burgh and Daniel O'Donnell what a trio - the three fivers, housewife's choice. But seriously, Chris De Burgh and Daniel O'Donnell are not that bad - CDG did Spanish Train and DOD did that album with songs from Trout Mask Replica that SJB alerted me to on 1st April, but I still can't find it in the shops.

Oh bugger! I've defended Artful Phil elsewhere. Never meant to do it, I couldn't help myself.

The fivers. Fantastic. I love it.

When listening to cover versions I am often caused to ask 'Why?'. (I'd take a baseball bat to Maria Carey just for her version of 'Without You' ... why, oh why?) Have to think that DOD would bring something special to Trout Mask Replica though.

quote:

Originally posted by Messenger:
Oh bugger! I've defended Artful Phil elsewhere. Never meant to do it, I couldn't help myself.

The fivers. Fantastic. I love it.

When listening to cover versions I am often caused to ask 'Why?'. (I'd take a baseball bat to Maria Carey just for her version of 'Without You' ... why, oh why?) Have to think that DOD would bring something special to Trout Mask Replica though.

............... or his new album equally difficult to source Cod Piece Deficiency

diccus

Just a few more thoughts - so far we have named only 2 women - and one of those is Madonna I'll add
Kate Bush
Ella Fitzgerald
Barbara Cook
Billy Holliday
Nina Simone

quote:

Phil Collins, Chris De Burgh and Daniel O'Donnell what a trio - the three fivers

The Three Fivers were of course Bruce Forsyth, Jimmy Tarbuck and Kenny Lynch - but they were short lived after Luciano Pavarotti, Placido Domingo and José Carreras sued for breach of copyright (you really cannot make this kind of stuff up).

Of course! Bless you for satisfying the vague itch at the back of my mind. Indeed, you really could not make it up!

Did I mention..............



Clearly not quite in the league of Madge but imo his lyrics surpass anything Lafin Len wrote.

SHADDUP YOU FACE - 21/02/1981
3 weeks at #1 - 10 weeks on chart

'Allo, I'm-a Giuseppe, I got-a something special-a for you, ready
Uno, duo, tre, quatro
When I was a boy, just about the eighth-a grade
Mama used to say don't stay out-a late
With the bad-a boys, always shoot-a pool
Giuseppe going to flunk-a school

Boy, it make-a me sick, all the t'ing I gotta do
I can't-a get-a no kicks, always got to follow rules
Boy, it make-a me sick, just to make-a lousy bucks
Got to feel-a like a fool and-a mama used to say all-a time

What's-a matter you Hey! Gotta no respect
What-a you t'ink you do? Why you look-a so sad
It's-a not so bad, it's-a nice-a place
Ah, shaddap-a you face

That's-a my mama, I can remember
Big accordion solo
Ah! Play dat again, Really nice, really nice

Soon-a come-a day, gonna be a big-a star
Den I make-a TV shows and-a movies
Get-a myself a new car, but still I be myself
I don't want-a to change a t'ing, still a-dance and a-sing
I t'ink about-a mama, she used to say

What's-a matter you Hey! Gotta no respect
What-a you t'ink you do Why you look-a so sad
It's-a not so bad, it's-a nice-a place
Ah, shaddap-a you face

Mama, she said it all-a da time
What's-a matter you Hey Gotta no respect
What-a you t'ink you do Why you look-a so sad
It's-a not so bad, it's-a nice-a place
Ah, shaddap-a you face
That s-a my mama

Hello, everybody!
'At's out-a dere in-a radio and-a TV land
Did you know I had a big-a hit-a song in-a Italy with-a disc
Shaddap-a you face
I sing-a dis-a song, all-a my fans applaud
Dey clap-a da hands, dat-a make me feel-a so good
You ought to learn-a dis-a song, it's-a real-a simple
See, I sing: what's-a matter you You sing Hey
Den I sing-a da rest and den at de end, we can all-a sing:
Ah, Shaddap-a you face! O.k., let's-a try it, really big

Uno, duo, tre, quatro
What's-a matter you Hey Gotta no respect Hey
What-a you t'ink you Hey do Why you look-a so sad Hey
It's-a not so bad Hey it's-a nice-a place
Ah, shaddap-a you face
OK one more-a time for mama
What's-a matter you Hey Gotta no respect Hey
What-a you t'ink you Hey do Why you look-a so sad Hey
It's-a not so bad Hey it's-a nice-a place
Ah, shaddap-a you face

Dicccuuussss

On the strong stuff again Diccus?