Speaker advice yet again!

Posted by: Willie B on 18 January 2003

As a new contributor to the forum I would like to ask other Naim users about speakers.

Until the mid-nineties I enjoyed a system comprising Dual turntable, A60E amplifier (remember that fine little amp?) and some nondescript speakers. A visit to a real hifi shop led me to upgrade to Naim 72/140 and Mission 753 speakers, followed shortly by a Meridian 500/563 CD player.

Then in 2001 the upgrade gremlins struck again and the 72 was improved by a hicap and then replaced by an 82 – both made a considerable improvement. Interestingly tapes of Radio 2 and 3 programmes for the car were much better – no doubt due to the 82.

The next step in mid 2001 was to replace the 140 with a 250. Now I have heard this step up in dealers demos and been suitably impressed but for me there has not been a substantial improvement at home. I can only think that the speakers are now letting me down. I also tried a CDX2 at home – better than my Meridian but not by £2ks worth.

I have tried Allaes at dealers and been impressed but less so when I home demoed a pair. I then tried a pair of late second hand JM Labs 906s at home and found them better but not by much. The dealer who lent me the JM Labs then lent me a pair of 4 year old Wilson Benesch Orators and suddenly the music came to life – I didn’t need to keep swopping leads between speakers to see which was best – it was a no contest – the instruments were better separated, much cleaner and there was a whole lot of base.

In the end I didn’t buy the Orators – wife didn’t like the style and colour and I was unsure whether there are even better models out there (WB suggested I try their Arcs). But it left me convinced of the need to upgrade the speakers next. My preferences are for blues, jazz and rock and it seems difficult to find speakers that will sound creditable when playing big band jazz and loud rock – Ryan Adams to Rolling Stones. I go to a lot of live amplified gigs where the sound is probably sub-hifi but the sound is tremendously exciting when it come out of great big speakers.

I have read good reviews recently of a number of speakers including Wilson Benesch Arcs, PMC FB1s and B+W 800 series. I would also be interested to hear comments about SBLs compared to Allaes. If it is any help my room is 12 feet by 20 feet by 7.5 feet high with the speakers on the narrow wall and with a concrete floor.
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by kan man
Rather than offer advice on speakers - which are very dependant on personal preference and the room they are sited in I suggest you get to the bottom of why you are getting a poorer performance at home than at the dealers. Do this before buying anything else! Seems to me you have a setup issue(s).

For starters, have you paid atention to the following:

Naim kit permanently powered up.
All interconnect and cable connections cleaned by unplugging and replugging several times (every 3 months min.)
Speakers on the long wall in a rectangular room (in most cases).
Speakers and stands level and rigid (and in the right place!).
Electronics on a suitable (level and rigid) support
Power amps and power supplies separated from pre-amps and cd to avoid magnetic field effects.
Ideally a dedicated mains spur for the kit or at least unswitched sockets.

If this is all new to you then you haven't heard what your existing kit is capable of.

Regards
Steve

PS. Apologies if you already know how to suck eggs.
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by Willie B
Thanks Kan Man your advice is appreciated - kit is permanently powered up and interconnects and cables are clean. However speakers are on narrow wall (firing down the long axis and one Alphason rack supports all the equipment (CD on top with 82 below followed in descending order by 250 and Hicap. All the kit runs off a standard 8 to 1 connector of the ordinary mains. I know I need to improve equipment stand and provide a dedicateds main spur but even so the WBs made a big difference to my speakers.
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by John3
I would certainly endorse putting speakers on the long wall in a 20x12 room, works best for me.
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Kan Man

What a nice and informative primer. Such a pleasant change from the too often seen rant belittling the newer member.

Willie

Are you using NACA5 cable? This IMHO is a must in a Naim system. From another angle, consider putting Linn Kabers on your speaker shortlist. They have plenty of advocates on this forum ( myself included ) and can be picked up for well under £500.

You have all the signs. Welcome to upgradeitus.

Mike
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by Willie B
I must own up to using Chord Flatline cable (it fits under the carpet) - when I demmed the Allaes I also borrowed some NAC5 and this cable made a bigger sound improvement than the Allaes - I am only put off by its bulk and am thinking about Chord as a substitute (although most Forum members seem to swear by NAC5 and I will follow that line if it sounds best)

When does the junior prefix disappear? I am well past junior in age?
Posted on: 18 January 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Willie B:

When does the junior prefix disappear? I am well past junior in age?


Shortly, O Seeker of Truth.. post the words PRAT and ARSE, twice, and All Will Be Revealed.....

Ommm
Posted on: 19 January 2003 by Clive Gidney
Do yourself a favour and install that dedicated mains spur today - its the best value for money upgrade you will ever make.

I recently moved house and was very disappointed with the sound of my system. I initally put it down to the bouncy suspended floort having previously had solid floors. However discussion with various people pointed me in the direction of the mains. I have now installed a separate consumer unit and 4 x spurs and WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT!!. All is sweetness & light in my life again.

More info on this subject can be found on the forum here
Posted on: 19 January 2003 by kan man
Mike - Thanks, I try my best to be helpful and tend not to post at all if a topic descends into the flame war some people think is 'debate'. Probably why I average 100 posts a year rather than the 1000's of the more vocal contributers.

Willie - Just endorsing what as been said by the others. Getting your dealer to sort it is a good idea. I think a lot of the problem comes from speaker placement. If it's not possible to put them on the long wall you may have to consider room accoustic treatments to tame the problem.

One further question - When you have tried different speakers have you always put them in the same place or have you experimented with positioning? The ideal spot for each model will differ. You can move speakers smal steps at a time to find roughly the right position but to fully optimise, you need to let them settle for a day or so before they perform properly. This is true of all stands (speaker and kit) that I've come across.

And another - Do you have a concrete floor or wooden suspended? Suspended generally gives more trouble, especially with speakers that go low and have plenty of bass energy and strengthening may be needed to stop the floor getting excited. It does mean that you could run NACA5 under the floor though.

One final thought - depending on how comfortable you are with unknown hifi nerds coming into your home and whereabouts you live, the offer of a free drink will probably get you a second opinion and consultation.

Regards
Steve
Posted on: 19 January 2003 by Willie B
Steve - thanks again for your comments - the problem with the dealers is that I don't want to waste their time if I don't like the sound and end up going elsewhere (or buying secondhand). Few dealers keep a good range of speakers except the big chains and they seem to be the least helpful.

On measuring the room it is 11 feet by 22 feet. To put the speakers on the long wall leaves to a very small distance between them and the listener, particularly if the speakers are ones that should not be sited against the wall. I have certainly experimented with placement on the narrow wall and was more impressed by the WB Orators than either my 753s, the Allaes or the JM Lab 906s. The floor is concrete with a carpet on top and there is a window and curtains on the narrow wall between the speakers.

I may take up your suggestion about inviting round some "unknown hifi nerds" to share a drink and give some comments - I'm near Kidderminster in the West Midlands.

I'm off out for a few hours but will log on again later

Regards

Willie
Posted on: 19 January 2003 by gusi
Willy,

Another point to look at is how sensitive your speakers are to positioning.

All speakers are sensitive to room nodes but beyond that some are much more position-friendly, so to speak.

I have a pair of ELAs and a pair of Briks. It doesn't take much to get the ELAs right but it is a real pain to make the briks sing.

cheers
Gus