The role of perfection in classical music
Posted by: mikeeschman on 28 March 2009
When you first develop an interest in classical music, and begin the search for the music that speaks to your soul, one of the issues that is brought into stark relief is the issue of performance practice. If a performer's execution is less than perfect, but his conception of the piece is illuminating, how does that affect the value and the meaning of the work itself?
In other types of music, this issue is generally not paramount, because performers of other musics typically do not develop the range of technical mastery that is typical of classical musicians.
But it is a central issue in performances of classical music, precisely because some performers have literally achieved perfection. In achieving that perfection, have these performers diluted, distorted or otherwise damaged the musical meaning of what they play?
The first thing that occurs to me is that a player who plays perfectly has the option of playing any music they like, any way they see fit, whereas a player with technical deficiencies must craft an interpretation with his deficiencies in mind, so that his flaws inflict the least amount of damage to the message of the music. The performance habits of all musicians quickly become second nature, and stamp there character on every performance.
As a listener, i am excited to hear a flawless performance, in part because perfection is an exciting concept that is rarely encountered in human life. I am stunned and elevated to a high state of hopefulness and joy at the appearance of the pristine and flawless.
If I have a central belief that colors and guides every one of my listening sessions it is this : a good performance stands outside time and space in its own sphere of influence, and puts your being in direct spiritual contact with the composer at the moment of creation, with the performer acting as the medium that establishes and allows this communication.
Technical flaws stain that communication. If you attended a performance of Hamlet, and the actor portraying Hamlet spoke with a lisp, you might conclude that the lisp added to the power and the emotion of his performance. If you did, i would call that a wrong-headed idea. For me, clarity in speech is central to the character of Hamlet. It is important for me to hear what Hamlet says.
One of the things that happens when you hear a perfect performance is that your idea of what is possible emotionally in that piece of music is expanded. Broad, dramatic strokes that had moved may seem trite and overblown in the light of perfection. Nuance and subtlety can achieve a finer level of graduation, and stand out clear and undistorted in the perfect performance. This is simply not so otherwise.
For these reasons, the recordings that I cherish most are the perfect performances. Anytime I want to hear a flawed reading, it is available to me. I want to taste, and bask in the presence of the perfect while I can. These perfect performers have elevated their understanding and emotion to a higher plane.
It takes everything to the next level.
Long live perfection :-)
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Mike,
You seem to be using 1000 words to say basically what could be said in a few,
You seem more interested in telling the world about your abilities to understand every bar of a score than demonstrating any great love of the music itself and what it means to you.
And in my view, the words" perfection" and " music " simply shouldn't share the same page.
Sister.
like others, i like to write. "the car is red." is not sufficient for me.
i don't understand every bar of any music. the score is the music. it's what the musicians play.
when a player has faultless rhythm, intonation and phrasing, as they often do, the other musicians say great job, perfect! i'm with them. they also like it when other people tell them so.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Earwicker
Some pretty lousy performances have been lauded as "profound" when all they are really is clumsy and poorly played; try just about anything by the Lindsay Quartet if you want an example! By the same token, some excellent performances seem to get slammed for being too well played! Try just about anything by the Kodaly Quartet!!
It is certainly true that a good many searching and profound performances are less than perfect technically - the Vegh Quartet's early '70s Beethoven set, which is about as profound a performance of anything as you'll hear, is a good example. I also agree that too many young players today sound the same and don't have a great lot to say despite their remarkable technical elan. Nonetheless, I don't regard bum notes and loose ensemble as an aspiration and I would encourage performers to avoid such things as far as possible. Always bearing in mind that if you really have got something to say then audiences are more than willing to make allowances...!
EW
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Mike,
You seem to be using 1000 words to say basically what could be said in a few,
You seem more interested in telling the world about your abilities to understand every bar of a score than demonstrating any great love of the music itself and what it means to you.
And in my view, the words" perfection" and " music " simply shouldn't share the same page.
Sister.
like others, i like to write. "the car is red." is not sufficient for me.
i don't understand every bar of any music. the score is the music. it's what the musicians play.
when a player has faultless rhythm, intonation and phrasing, as they often do, the other musicians say great job, perfect! i'm with them. they also like it when other people tell them so.
But it's not "perfect". A meaningless word in music.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
But it's not "perfect". A meaningless word in music.
i didn't stutter. you heard me right the first time.
find someone else to play with, my mom is calling me in for dinner.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Sister E.
Well no-one should miss their mother's cooking
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
Mike, you did try to keep this to classical, and myself and others as widened the arena somewhat...but.
Your generalisation that classical musicians play at higher speed (note count) is wrong Mike even as a generalistion. A lot of folk music, a lot of rock guitar work and a lot of jazz is on a whole other level. But it's a pointless boast. Speed is the smile on the beautiful face of music...little more.
Secondly, if perfection is everything Mike, a lot of electronic music is probably as close to perfection as we have. William Orbit's work etc...it's mechanised perfection.
I think it's an interesting thread, but it's focusing a tiny, tiny element of what makes music such a great medium. For me, it's a long way down the list of priorities.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
Your generalisation that classical musicians play at higher speed (note count) is wrong Mike even as a generalistion.
Secondly, if perfection is everything Mike, a lot of electronic music is probably as close to perfection as we have.
not faster, more notes. it's just a fact of life.
in electronic music, no note is ever played perfectly.
you are too interested in arguing to see what i've been saying.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
I never argue Mike, always debate.
That's a very odd comment about electronic music Mike. There's a whole world of genius there, but what we personally chose to ignore is forever lost.
As per more notes. I did understand Mike, but you're still factually wrong there...by some distance.
I did say tho, you intended to keep this to classical, and we are pulling this offthread.
I love to see your defence of classical at all costs Mike (I could never be so loyal to any, artist, genre or even person). I'm a scientist and objectivity takes it over loyalty anyday. There are areas where classical is beyond reproach as a genre, but as an artform, there are areas where it is sorely lacking. This is why I'm extremely selective of what I listen to, across many genres.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
Classical music, played electronically, absolutely perfectly as it appears in the score, with no mistakes.
http://www.eadcentral.com/go/1/1/0/http://www.classical...n.com/cmc/liszt.html( you can pick composers/pieces on the left hand side. These are MIDI files- the score transfered to a sequencer, no human error. The sound is a generic sample and not pleasing but the performance is flawless .... and unlistenable )
I have downloaded a Paganini/liszt file into my sequencer ( Logic Pro ) and have added different degrees of random error at random notes to induce a degree of Humanity to the " performance" . I Still have lots of work to do on it but I will post the results when I am finished......
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
That's a very odd comment about electronic music Mike.
As per more notes. I did understand Mike, but you're still factually wrong there...by some distance.
I did say tho, you intended to keep this to classical, and we are pulling this offthread.
I love to see your defence of classical at all costs Mike (I could never be so loyal to any, artist, genre or even person). I'm a scientist and objectivity takes it over loyalty anyday. There are areas where classical is beyond reproach as a genre, but as an artform, there are areas where it is sorely lacking.
1-electronic music does not produce the phrasing or rhythm i want to hear. it has no forward momentum, can't do a good rubato, and phrases so dryly, it has me pissing sand :-)
2-i found three bars of beethoven sonata no. 30, op. 109 that contain over 80 notes. you are a scientist, give me your counts :-)
3-i am not just loyal to classical music. i am in love with classical music. as an expression and an indulgence of that love, i have focused my attention on particular pieces of music, one at a time. this attention is being amply rewarded. i hear more of the music. i can understand more of the conversation.
i intend to improve my skill at divining some few pieces of classical music to the point that is closest to the composer's soul.
as close as i can get will be good enough.
i am merging with this music :-)
people talk about emotion all the time on this forum. does unconstrained and absolute love, freely given, count?
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
...does unconstrained and absolute love, freely given, count?
Not really Mike no. It's about music creating an emotive response. I truly love my dogs, but I wouldn't dream of throwing them on the platter of my LP12 (I've been tempted to throw them elsewhere).
You're very like George, Mike, you are in love with a genre. I'm not, but I'm in love with a lot of music. I was in love with Harriet Wheeler for a while.
The Beethoven sonata's Mike...get yourself into a pub over here when a half decent fiddle player is in-house. You don't need to be a scientist ;o)
Fun as always Mike.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
I truly love my dogs, but I wouldn't dream of throwing them on the platter of my LP12.
so much for science ...
mat, with music you're like a puddle that has a surface area equal to the pacific ocean, and the volume of a shoe box.
i go to pub at least three times a week. i hear r & B and jazz of good quality more often than you think (it is new orleans after all).
and i have meals that are spiritual experiences every week :-)
i'm game. let's go. your serve.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
Sorry Mike, you can fit a lot more than 80 notes into three bars in electronic music.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by haroldbudd:
Sorry Mike, you can fit a lot more than 80 notes into three bars in electronic music.
it's 80+ notes in each bar, so that's 240 notes.
and it's 240 notes i want to hear.
and as i said, i just don't like the way electronic music sounds :
1 - the intonation is sterile.
2 - the rhythm has no flexibility, it's stiff.
3 - the tonality has no center.
4 - the phrasing is so dry, it makes me piss sand.
everything i have trained myself to hear and respond to is absent in electronic music.
i have given it a try. it blocked my bowels, made my hair fall out and blurred my vision. i lost my appetite, and had difficulty concentrating.
so for me, electronic music is music i need a prescription for, to keep it from sucking all joy from life.
but i understand others love it :-)
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
mat, with music you're like a puddle that has a surface area equal to the pacific ocean, and the volume of a shoe box.
That's exactly my perception of you Mike! I could talk at length (like many on here) about all manner of genre (in extremely anorakish detail). But I'd wager Mike, your knowledge of music would be confined to said puddle (albeit the full depth of it).
Living in New Orleans is nice Mike, but it's a museum musically. As we type Mike there are whole worlds of music you've not discovered, all manner of genius...and you're missing it. That's ok, if you can live with it...I couldn't.
The ocean is full of amazing life Mike. Cetaceans...amazing creatures. You could easily spend a lifetime studying them, as you could the fauna of a puddle. I'd rather spend my time being amazed by turtles, batfish, cold water coral, deep sea vents, lesser predators, garfish, leafy seadragons, weedy seadragons etc etc etc.
But, I know a lot of happy cetacean experts. They're convinced that's all there is.
...is that a puff of chalk I see, rising majestically from the baseline?
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Lontano
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
...is that a puff of chalk I see, rising majestically from the baseline?
Advantage Mat
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
1-I could talk at length (like many on here) about all manner of genre (in extremely anorakish detail).
2-Living in New Orleans is nice Mike, but it's a museum musically.
3-I'd rather spend my time being amazed by turtles, batfish, cold water coral, deep sea vents, lesser predators, garfish, leafy seadragons, weedy seadragons etc etc etc.
4-...is that a puff of chalk I see, rising majestically from the baseline?
1 - so talk at length. let's see how good a read that is :-)
2 - I didn't know you were in New Orleans to hear music. Who did you catch when you were in town?
3 - maybe so, but i wouldn't put turtles, batfish, cold water coral, deep sea vents, lesser predators, garfish, leafy seadragons, weedy seadragons on my LP12!!!
4 - we will see what we will see. do you see?
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
so for me, electronic music is music i need a prescription for, to keep it from sucking all joy from life.
You can't get a prescription for it Mike, not on the NHS. I do know a man tho...
Sometimes Mike, you have to let go of all you've been taught. I did, and the world of music opened up before me. Never trust anybody in matters of the heart...certainly not a teacher.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
Never trust anybody in matters of the heart...
this is exactly what i mean, mat. in matters of the heart you always have to trust at least one other person. that's when true love comes :-)
unless you mean self love ...
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
Ok Mike. A deal...I will educate you on the wonderful world on music. But you must listen and follow. I in turn will listen and you can educate me why music is confined to the modern construct of largely white musicians within a given genre. But we'll do it by PM.
Tennis is rubbish, and that is a fact.
I like your continuation of the LP12 zoo analogy tho.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Mat Cork
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
unless you mean self love ...
We all do it Mike, we all do it.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Sister E.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikeeschman:
everything i have trained myself to hear and respond to is absent in electronic music.
i have given it a try. it blocked my bowels, made my hair fall out and blurred my vision. i lost my appetite, and had difficulty concentrating.
Sounds like you need some more of your mother's cooking , Mike.
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Sounds like you need some more of your mother's cooking , Mike.
Sister E., if you came down here for one weekend and had the food, you would never leave :-)
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
unless you mean self love ...
We all do it Mike, we all do it.
of course we do, it has to come first. but things don't get moving till the other arrives.
then you have a whole.
is this your idea of a debate?
Posted on: 30 March 2009 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Sounds like you need some more of your mother's cooking , Mike.
Sister E., if you came down here for one weekend and had the food, you would never leave :-)
That's the first sensible thing I've heard you say, Mike.
