The role of perfection in classical music

Posted by: mikeeschman on 28 March 2009

When you first develop an interest in classical music, and begin the search for the music that speaks to your soul, one of the issues that is brought into stark relief is the issue of performance practice. If a performer's execution is less than perfect, but his conception of the piece is illuminating, how does that affect the value and the meaning of the work itself?

In other types of music, this issue is generally not paramount, because performers of other musics typically do not develop the range of technical mastery that is typical of classical musicians.

But it is a central issue in performances of classical music, precisely because some performers have literally achieved perfection. In achieving that perfection, have these performers diluted, distorted or otherwise damaged the musical meaning of what they play?

The first thing that occurs to me is that a player who plays perfectly has the option of playing any music they like, any way they see fit, whereas a player with technical deficiencies must craft an interpretation with his deficiencies in mind, so that his flaws inflict the least amount of damage to the message of the music. The performance habits of all musicians quickly become second nature, and stamp there character on every performance.

As a listener, i am excited to hear a flawless performance, in part because perfection is an exciting concept that is rarely encountered in human life. I am stunned and elevated to a high state of hopefulness and joy at the appearance of the pristine and flawless.

If I have a central belief that colors and guides every one of my listening sessions it is this : a good performance stands outside time and space in its own sphere of influence, and puts your being in direct spiritual contact with the composer at the moment of creation, with the performer acting as the medium that establishes and allows this communication.

Technical flaws stain that communication. If you attended a performance of Hamlet, and the actor portraying Hamlet spoke with a lisp, you might conclude that the lisp added to the power and the emotion of his performance. If you did, i would call that a wrong-headed idea. For me, clarity in speech is central to the character of Hamlet. It is important for me to hear what Hamlet says.

One of the things that happens when you hear a perfect performance is that your idea of what is possible emotionally in that piece of music is expanded. Broad, dramatic strokes that had moved may seem trite and overblown in the light of perfection. Nuance and subtlety can achieve a finer level of graduation, and stand out clear and undistorted in the perfect performance. This is simply not so otherwise.

For these reasons, the recordings that I cherish most are the perfect performances. Anytime I want to hear a flawed reading, it is available to me. I want to taste, and bask in the presence of the perfect while I can. These perfect performers have elevated their understanding and emotion to a higher plane.

It takes everything to the next level.

Long live perfection :-)
Posted on: 31 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by haroldbudd:
Here you go,

A group of Estonian children armed with glockenspiels of all sizes, along with their music teacher who is lugging about two tympani's , find themselves a bit bored while waiting for a train in a subway somewhere underneath New York.




i listened to the Paganini four times with my wife. we clapped all four times :-)

you preserved the spirit of the music. the intonation and rhythm were nominal. that's moon launch talk for "everything is working perfect".

your personality shines thru your writing like the sun :-)

if you ever want to visit here in New Orleans, you can stay with us. i can promise you privacy, a perfectly tuned grand piano, wireless internet access, a nice stereo room with recliners, three or four meals a day, at least one of which will be a spiritual experience, and i'll see if you can sit in anywhere :-)

you are a rare talent.
Posted on: 31 March 2009 by mjamrob
Well I just played back the 'Paganini', and it was lovely Smile

regards,
mat
Posted on: 31 March 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
Gracias

Mike, your words are more than kind. I am not sure when I will be in your neck of the swamps, but I will certainly let you know, your invitation is fantastic and I offer the exact same back to you and your wife. I am in the very middle of a move to Berlin ( farewell CN Tower .... hello ummm ...Wall ), I have a great music opportunity there, and Berlin is to electronic music what Vienna was to .... well, you know. I may not do much posting for a while as the next few months are going to be a bit intense, but I will share any new sonic experiments , as long as they are fun and/or interesting. Now, back to some technical stuff, take a look at this this window from my music program, logic Pro 8 (Studio)



Now, before I push the " Baroque 3/5-adaptive Hermode Tuning " button at the bottom, should I dress up like Luis IV ? or Alfonso The Wise ?

More importantly , and second question, ... how many Italian pianists could Rodrigo fend off in a good old fashioned bar brawl ?

Cheers, and good luck quitting smoking, I am with you on that one from the 7th of April.

Mat, thank you. A few years ago I would have considered it an insult if anyone described anything I did musically as " Lovely ", but that was before I discovered that there are actually no sharps in the key of " C " Smile

all the best,

j
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
haroldbudd aka j,

post as often as you can. i don't want to lose touch with you :-)
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mjamrob
quote:
Mat, thank you. A few years ago I would have considered it an insult if anyone described anything I did musically as " Lovely ", but that was before I discovered that there are actually no sharps in the key of " C "


It certainly wasn't an insult - just a spontaneous reaction to the piece from a non-musician. It was not only enjoyable but sounded accomplished and intriguing as a concept.

regards,
mat
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
the perfect way to close out this thread is with a definition of perfection, which i feel demonstrates the correctness of what i said in the opening post : (from wikipedia)

The oldest definition of "perfection", fairly precise and distinguishing the shades of the concept, goes back to Aristotle. In Book Delta of the Metaphysics, he distinguishes three meanings of the term, or rather three shades of one meaning, but in any case three different concepts. That is perfect:

1. which is complete — which contains all the requisite parts;
2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;
3. which has attained its purpose.

pollini in the last three beethoven sonatas meets all three shadings of the meaning of perfection stated here, thus he has achieved a state of perfection in these performances :-)
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
quote:
Originally posted by mjamrob:
quote:
Mat, thank you. A few years ago I would have considered it an insult if anyone described anything I did musically as " Lovely ", but that was before I discovered that there are actually no sharps in the key of " C "


It certainly wasn't an insult - just a spontaneous reaction to the piece from a non-musician. It was not only enjoyable but sounded accomplished and intriguing as a concept.

regards,
mat


Mat, I really was just kidding ! Not insulted at all. It was just an experiment for fun, and it was a good deal of fun working on it. I am really glad you enjoyed it and thank you for the kind words.

regards
j
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:


pollini in the last three beethoven sonatas meets all three shadings of the meaning of perfection stated here, thus he has achieved a state of perfection in these performances :-)


Well, in YOUR opinion, Mike. The whole idea of "perfection" is a complete and utter nonsense, in MY opinion. Oh, and by the way, this IS a debate, not an argument.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Well, in YOUR opinion, Mike.


not in my opinion, but in fact, according to the accepted definition which i posted. perfection is a word with an accepted definition, and the performance meets the criteria of the definition.

you don't get to decide what a word means by forming an opinion. you look it up in a dictionary :-)
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
the perfect way to close out this thread is with a definition of perfection, which i feel demonstrates the correctness of what i said in the opening post : (from wikipedia)

The oldest definition of "perfection", fairly precise and distinguishing the shades of the concept, goes back to Aristotle. In Book Delta of the Metaphysics, he distinguishes three meanings of the term, or rather three shades of one meaning, but in any case three different concepts. That is perfect:

1. which is complete — which contains all the requisite parts;
2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;
3. which has attained its purpose.

pollini in the last three beethoven sonatas meets all three shadings of the meaning of perfection stated here, thus he has achieved a state of perfection in these performances :-)


Sorry Mike, I did not realize that you had posted a close out as I was typing a short response to Mat. There is a pop album which I think meets the 3 meanings of perfection you mention, but the interesting thing is the people who made it think the opposite . They think it is very flawed and did not even enjoy making it much. The expression, " Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" comes to mind. Perhaps it can also be said " Beauty is in the EAR of the beholder ", when it comes to music. Who knows, maybe Pollini himself thinks, "oh, should have done that note like this or that..... "

Now, how about starting a thread , " The role of Imperfection in Classical music "
Smile

regards
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by 'haroldbudd':
Now, how about starting a thread , " The role of Imperfection in Classical music "
Smile

regards


that is a thread for someone else to start.

this thread doesn't have to be closed out. i just thought everyone had walked away from it.

from what i've read, pollini was satisfied with the performances i've been talking about.

the pop album you are talking about does not meet the definition unless it is complete, achieves its stated purpose and could not possibly be better. if it is all these things and the band is still upset, they think it could possibly be better, which fails the test of the definition.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:

the pop album you are talking about does not meet the definition unless it is complete, achieves its stated purpose and could not possibly be better. if it is all these things and the band is still upset, they think it could possibly be better, which fails the st of the definition.


Yes, I see your point, but for ME ( and others ) it does completely meet the definition, and " I " think it is complete, I would not change a single note or change any production. I would be very suspicious of any group that declared " We have just completed a perfect album, musically and technically " likewise imagine a classical composer declaring similar, I think it would raise a few suspicious eyebrows. I remember listening to Stravinsky conducting some of his own works thinking, Ok, this is it.... he wrote it so this is the way it should be, perfect as he had it in his head. Well, I like all my other versions better for various reasons ! ( not that his were bad, and it was interesting to hear them )

I guess what I am trying to say is that each human is so different, and 100 people listening to the same piece will have many different impressions, some of them will feel the criteria for perfection has been met but others will not. So at the end, I don't think there can be a complete consensus if something is truly perfect, but individually, yes, of course.

I have not heard the Pollini, but I will put the name into the memory bank, so if I come across it, I will listen.... it better be perfect !
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:

2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;


Does this mean there is no point in further recordings (of a piece) once there exists a perfect example?
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,

For what it is worth, my view is deciding what might be perfect remains a matter of opinion!

If such a thing as perfection could be objectively defined in a universally acceptable way, then I suspect the world would be a duller place!

On the other hand sometimes a musical performance can seem perfect to me! I would not really especially expect that it would be perfect for other people ...

And that is nice!

All the best to you, and keep up the good work on the 'baccy!

ATB from George
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by Lontano
quote:
Originally posted by 'haroldbudd':
There is a pop album which I think meets the 3 meanings of perfection you mention


What's the album?
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:

2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;


Does this mean there is no point in further recordings (of a piece) once there exists a perfect example?


at least with classical music, it is a moving target. for example, before pollini no one had as perfect a touch (this is in my opinion), so someone else was perfect, or several such someones. then pollini came along and raised the bar (again in my opinion).

so something that was perfect became imperfect because a newer performance superceded an earlier performance. or on re-evaluation it becomes clear that the earlier performance is really better ...

this moving target characteristic is inherent in the subjective nature of the definition itself.

as a pratical matter many different performances of the same work can be perfect, despite their differences.

the definition does not presume exclusivity.

the real motivation for starting the thread was considerably less grand. i think that pollini's playing on these last three beethoven piano sonatas represent a new standard against which all others could be measured. the part playing has a clarity and uniformity of articulation that makes things clearer and more beautiful than any in my experience.

others acknowledge that perfection, and cite it as the reason the performance is lacking in emotion.

i have always maintained that the emotion is the listen's reaction to the music, and pollini really got to me. i have a profound emotional reaction to the pollini.

pollini goes beyond making or not making mistakes. he makes it clear that many of his contemporaries are willing to settle for less
in their part playing.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
Eureka ! ( well, maybe ... )

I think I have just found something very interesting that may be of relevance to all of this.

I have just finished reading the surprisingly in-depth and detailed explanation on the many different types of " Tuning " in the massive manual for my recording software. There are many types of tuning ( equal Temperament, Hermode, Fixed etc. ) and many many variables within those. The interesting bit is that none are absolutely perfect, and this can be audible, to a trained ear, when playing complex chord clusters and the like. Some types of tuning are better for certain types of music, but none absolutely perfect.

So, how can any music be absolutely perfect when the tuning of the instruments themselves is not perfect ? This is not even considering the natural de-tuning of the instrument which occurs , although very minutely, over the course of a performance.

I have actually learned a lot because of this thread .... cool !
Smile
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
my wife tunes and voices pianos for a living for the last 30+ years.

certainly tunings are always compromises.

but the best players and technicians seem to find the compromises that work best.

you should read the first five chapters of hindemith's "craft of musical composition".
he builds a chromatic scale directly from the overtone series :-) all the compromises are there for you to inspect in detail.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mjamrob
The meaning of 'perfection' is an absolute concept only -
the performance of a musical work is subject to physical limitations or differences in each performer playing in the 'real world'. An unquantifiable variation arises in the possible differences in a performance of a piece of music.

No two players will sound the same, having different physical attributes (especially in the hand and finger muscles, bone mass etc etc), temperament, and understanding all of which will affect the interpretation of a piece.
No matter how good Pollini is, other well regarded pianists will almost certainly offer a different perspective and insight into a work. For Pollini to have reached perfection then he must include every possible interpretation into one - this is a physical impossibility. Although maybe not technically as good as Pollini who's to say the ultimate interpreter of Beethoven was not Beethoven himself? Surely one cannot define the animation and breathing of life into a work in terms of perfection.

And if perfection is as common as was stated in the original post, how come no two performances last for exactly the same duration?

regards,
mat
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by mjamrob:
For Pollini to have reached perfection then he must include every possible interpretation into one - this is a physical impossibility.

And if perfection is as common as was stated in the original post, how come no two performances last for exactly the same duration?

regards,
mat


a perfect reading does not have to encompass all possible interpertations.

there are multiple possible perfect readings, and each could have a different duration.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
quote:
Originally posted by Sister E.:
Well, in YOUR opinion, Mike.


not in my opinion, but in fact, according to the accepted definition which i posted. perfection is a word with an accepted definition, and the performance meets the criteria of the definition.

you don't get to decide what a word means by forming an opinion. you look it up in a dictionary :-)


I'm Sorry -complete nonsense. You cannot measure perfection in music. Just think about it. Not a single music critic in the world worth his or her salt would use that word to describe a performance.
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by mikeeschman
ok, it's official, i think there's no juice left in this lemon. it has become boring. so i am going to abandon ship.

bye :-)
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by 'haroldbudd':

A few years ago I would have considered it an insult if anyone described anything I did musically as " Lovely "


Why?

Best,
Fred


Posted on: 01 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by 'haroldbudd':
Eureka ! ( well, maybe ... )

I think I have just found something very interesting that may be of relevance to all of this.

I have just finished reading the surprisingly in-depth and detailed explanation on the many different types of " Tuning " in the massive manual for my recording software. There are many types of tuning ( equal Temperament, Hermode, Fixed etc. ) and many many variables within those. The interesting bit is that none are absolutely perfect, and this can be audible, to a trained ear, when playing complex chord clusters and the like. ....


Well done!

The most perfect intonation [tuning] can only be achieved with the correct tuning of the intervals off the root. For example E in C major will be a slightly different pitch to the E in A major etc ... All keyboard schemes of tuning are fundamentaslly out of tune in one or several respects, except for the old just intonation tuning which is more or less perfectly in tune in one key only ... It get increasingly inbearably horrible as the number of sharps or flats in the key signature grows. Interesting reading on this may be found if you search:

Silbermann's Wolf.

This is the very reason I am not fond of the piano as a concept, let alone an instrument, as its tuning is even more vexed than that of the harpsichord or the pipe organ, where at least the harmonics are true unlike on the piano, where they further distort the tuning [because the string lengths do not double at the octave, and the strings are thicker and more inflexible the lower down the instrument you go, thus causing the upper partials to wrongly related to the fundamental note in a way entirely not found on the pipe organ, and far less prevavlent on the harpsichord because the strings are so very much thinner and less inflexible [compared to the piano]...

The paino is a very convenient, but rather imperfect instrument with regard to it possibilities of beautiful tuning ...

But as Busoni observed, "The human has the ability to hear what was intended, rather than absolutley what was produced, which makes the compromise of modern piano tuning a possibility, if not a perfect one."

ATB from George
Posted on: 01 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
Fred,

Back in university, I played in an experimental noise band, a somewhat similar sound that the band from Dublin " My Bloody Valentine " achieved on their album 'Loveless' . We tried to make a din similar to a small jet engine with the pilot intermittently dozing off on the throttle lever. Odd, but we had a following in the Detroit /Windsor area. If someone would have said " lovely" when describing our, umm .. music, we would have been sad. I am happy that Mat thought my piece " Lovely " really. (I don't think anyone in a Metal band would want that word used for their music also !)

George,

this is all very interesting and I have noted both works on the matter that yourself and Mike have mentioned. This forum really is very rich in interesting information.

regards

j