NAIM Design Criticism

The post I quoted was at: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=hug&n=2641&highlight=naim&r=&session=

My apologies if this topic has upset the apple cart. Trust that I was merely interested in some engineers experienced in amplifier design helping me understand what that post was really saying, and providing insight into NAIM's component choices.

My very first listening experience with NAIM was so incredible that it convinced me that I needed to start saving. I'm simply curious if NAIM (or anyone, I suppose) could do better with alternative components at the same price.

Thanks,

-Erik-

Someone with an Audio Asylum membership should invite the author (Ed Sommer) to join this discussion and add further comment.

Paul Ranson, if you have a personal bone to pick with me, a site of this caliber is not the place. I'd welcome your personal criticisms one-on-one, although I'm not at all interested in arguing or jabbing insults as you've displayed here.

-Erik-

He's having an off day I think Erik.Apparantly,there is a post on another board stating'Barnstaple men shown to be overly fond of sheep'I have searched high and low,but to no avail

Cheers,
Paul.

Where's me sheep?

Following on from my previous comment -its a weird thing high end eqipment. As things go up in price they tend to sound clearer and clearer until, in my experience, they sound sterile. There are a lot of good products available at the high end of the hifi world but the hard part is matching them together without going to far. Naim I think do this job very well for you as I can only think of them as a single make system manufacturer which would compete with any mixed 'best of' system. As I wrote before their high end stuff is the opposite of sterile and so "alive" I believe its the closest I have heard to a live performance where some systems might sound more like a studio performance.
I recently went to see a blues bloke play live in what I would say were perfect audio conditions, very high arched roof and only 100 people in a hall about 40ft wide and 80 ft long and you could not get any real sense of imaging. I got home and put on his cd, it was so close it was unreal (or real) This is why I love Naim equipment. many thanks

quote:

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I'd welcome your personal criticisms one-on-one, although I'm not at all interested in arguing or jabbing insults as you've displayed here.

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If you're not interested in the arguments, then why start one?

I've not insulted you, even with a jab.

Look at it this way, if you listen to a Naim amp or system and like it, why do you care what anybody else thinks? Does your opinion change because someone else claims that tantalum capacitors sound bad? Or makes incorrect claims about Class B?You're clearly not in a position to judge tantalum caps or Class B power amp architecture from an engineering pov, all you can do is listen. If you like it buy it.

(It's surprising how defensive some Naim users seem to be. There's no reason for this....)

Paul

Excellent........Don't think the boots will fit though.......

Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
[Interesting comment. Can you explain, in further depth, why the ability of a Hifi system to resolve minute "inner details" somehow makes its imaging unrealistic? A system which images accurately, but loses out on the details, will create a very "hazy" or "smoothed off" sound.

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Easy peasy.

Real musicians can fidget, wheeze, fart (subtly) have rumbling stomachs and whistling noses. You do not hear this live from in the audience; if you hear every wheeze etc in a recording, you are not hearing it as it is meant to be heard. If you think that you need to hear this detail to avoid a hazy or smoothed off sound, you are wrong.

Mike

Amen, my brother Mike. This is my feeling. Many things, untoward and otherwise, happened during THE RECORDING of the even that the microphones captured.

You hear many of these things on a good system. You would probably NOT hear them live.

That audiophiles from the land of Stereophile have taken this cult of sonicism to its illogical conclusion is evidenced by the type of gear/sound they prize.

This "class A" (or whatever ranking it may have -- it has to have one or it wont be purchased) type gear is given "class A" often because "it let me hear everything on my recordings". "I was hearing things I've never heard before." "I have heard Bang Baroom and Harp 10066 times-- and never have I heard the second harpist break wind quite so sharply." Etc. etc.. etc...

How many times (those of you that still read Stereophile and The Absolute Sound regularly) have you come across lines like this??

And everytime the mk. 2 version comes out-- they chant this mantra. Then again-- 2 months later when the mk. 2 SE comes out. Again with the "signature" version.

Each one allows "another veil to be lifted" "more detail.. i could tell that there was a subway beneath the venue of the recording" "a small boy had just tripped over the mic wire" and on and on.

All a guy like Art Dudley (and others) did was come along and say "so friggin' what???? Who cares?? I dont know how many THD's my amp has and I dont care to. My speakers (lowthers) are peaky and dont do this or this... but I friggin' LOVE them!!" Round-earthers hate the man for this and write letters of protest to his new magazine... I cant bring myself to speak on it more.

This I think, is in the spirit of the NAIM spirit. I dont give a crap if Julian V. got the design for the NAIM circuit in 1945 off his friends bum when he bent over at a football game in early august.

It plays music the way I hear it in my head and I like it.

To this end, Bob Surgeoner at NEAT acoustics has the right idea-- he designs with little or no measurements. He listens and goes about it iteratively, until he has what he wants.

Now, what HE wants may not be what YOU want or value-- but if it is-- you are in for a treat. Richard Shahinian is another example of the breed-- the man knows what he wants and designs for it.

So you will not win against people like our esteemed roundie here. You'll play your CDS3/500/552/dbl system for him and he'll say "the 10th violin is not as far to the left as he normally is on my system and I dont hear Gould's chair squeaking as much. NAIM is crap. It's old circuitry. Poor VFM."

What can you do? Checkers sells more than chess-- and Britney Spears is hot.

David

Supurb posts Mike and David !

Who cares how it works ? If my amp was nicked and it turned out that it was a cardboard box with a single wire from the input to the output, and if the type of cardboard and wire used had been developed by Naim and could not be replicated, I would use the insurance money to buy exactly the same amp, and no amount of "voltage going up and down with the bass" talk would convince me to do otherwise.

RICHYH said :

quote:

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As I wrote before their high end stuff is the opposite of sterile and so "alive" I believe its the closest I have heard to a live performance where some systems might sound more like a studio performance.

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This struck a chord with me. I would go further. I am stunned on a daily basis at my system's ability to take sterile studio recordings and turn them into live performances.

Agreed- great posts by Mike and David.

I suppose I could lay my curiosity regarding alternative designs to rest, unless a former or current amplifier engineer posts something interesting. I agree with everyone that said it comes down to the sound, not the internals of the box. Just a curious guy, I guess, and looking to learn more about design choices. I'll leave the sheep curiosities to others

As I write I'm listening to Stevie Wonder. Great stuff. No- phenomenal stuff!

Thanks,

-Ludwig-

Ludwig,

I can see what you are up to now. You want to be able to set aside the fear of committing to Naim and then finding out that there is something else out there that is better and cheaper. As a veteran Naim owner with little recent exposure to other brands I still need some reassurance before parting with my hard earned dosh at upgrade time. Blind faith is silly. The fear that I may be able to do better is alleviated by three things : my experiences before I discovered Naim, my experiences as a Naim owner, and comments from intelligent people on this forum who have had exposure to "state of the art" equipment from other manufacturers and prefer Naim. As long as there are a healthy number in this camp I can assume that there is no new "magic" out there and get on with it.

If I had unlimited funds and time I suppose I could travel the world in search of the best hi-fi system but frankly that notion gives me the creeps. I would rather listen to music.

Minky, you have my reasons for beginning this discussion EXACTLY right. Not being a degreed audio design engineer, I become a little suspicious when I read posts like the one I quoted. Just trying to get the most for my money. Having spent US$1400 on my current system (a stretch at the time) I just want to discover all the possible competitors (within reason) before shelling out US$1550 for the NAIT5 alone. Blame my sensitivity on the George W Bush economy!

This hobby is often not-so-accessible and easily understood for non-hardcore enthusiasts.

Thanks, friend.

-Ludwig-


[This message was edited by Ludwig on MONDAY 12 May 2003 at 03:37.]

Ludwig,

As a fellow Seattlite I suggest you go to Hawthorne and listen to some Naim equipment if you are interested. Decide if you like it. It's really pretty simple,and the capacitor specs are just not too relevant.

Bruce

Ludwig,

If you re-read my first reply very carefully, you will see that I did in fact read your first post very carefully indeed.

I questioned whether the quote you supplied was your own opinion on the matter and awaited further clarification.

You were obviously playing "Devil's Advocate," and there is nothing wrong with that in my book. You came her to seek reassurance that you'd be making the right decision in purchasing Naim gear, and you've obviously come to the right place.

If you trusted your on ears of course, you wouldn't need such reassurance and would have treated your cited Naim-bashing with the proverbial pinch of salt.

I would still be interested in any alternatives to Naim you may have in mind. Also, it isn't compulsory to choose all your boxes from the same manufacturer, although a musical system will almost certainly comprise of components working together synergistically and with a philosophy "in tune" with that of Naim (pun intended.)

In my honest opinion, Naim CD players are the best there is out there, their amps have a certain, almost "cult" following, and their speakers are to taste.

Just use your ears to do the rest.

In terms of the stuff where your ears don't count so much, such as build quality/reliability/longevity/serviceability, Naim are second to none.



Regards,

Steve.

ramon, good post- thanks. btw- what's flat earth vs. round earth? i keep reading these phrases (again, i'm an average guy seeking more than above average sound)

Oops- nevermind. I just found the Pink Fish site and I'm now reading the story about the flat earth phrase. Nice.

-Ludwig-

Yeehar - that's what I'm talking about ! Thanks for sharing Ramon. It's old campaigners like you, who have got to the top of the mountain and didn't rate the view that make me feel better about chickening out at base camp.

A Revelation

Perhaps I've been a pinhead here. Just reading through the Pink Fish and The Unofficial NAIM Audio Setup Guide sites, I realized... this flat earth stuff all makes perfect sense to me. What makes this hobby confusing and often unapproachable is the stuff I've read elsewhere- Stereophile, other mags, and in that post I quoted. Problem was I was bringing all those years of brainwash into the NAIM world. I love music, not specifications or equipment designs.

Fellas, I have seen the light (as a choir chants a mellow "ahh ahhhhh ahhhhhhhh" in the background).

Good night,

-Ludwig-

The Sonics, Not The Parts

Interesting posts, these are!

The proof's in the listening, whatever the "parts" employed within our Naim components.
Period.

If the music played on Naim equipment connects to you emotionally, buy them. If it doesn't, well...

Good listening all; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

Hi Mr Toon,
I think we agree with each other but from different perspective.
The recording is totally imperative to the end result and I think most of the best recordings have not been messed with too much, therefore when played back the sound is still 'alive' on a good system, like the studio recording of this blues Bloke I saw.
However, recently I embarked on a tedious journey trying out some very 'High end' cable (very well known) and this had exactly the effect I mean you get from some High end equipment. Initially eveything seemed more in focus and brought things to your notice with a tighter sound but after 2 /3 weeks I found the enjoyment was gone, put back on the my cheaper standard stuff and suddenly it was back, Great!!
In an A/B I bet 95% would choose the expensive stuff but to my mind there is no comparison, the Life is sucked away and it is the most important long term quality I seek from any music.

In this thread was written:

"All a guy like Art Dudley (and others) did was come along and say "so friggin' what???? Who cares?? I dont know how many THD's my amp has and I dont care to. My speakers (lowthers) are peaky and dont do this or this... but I friggin' LOVE them!!" Round-earthers hate the man for this and write letters of protest to his new magazine..."

Did I miss something??? Does Art Dudley have a NEW magazine??? PLEASE advise!!!


OK - now on to the 2 pence part.

Mr. Toon wrote:

"Every Hifi system is ultimately an "interpretation", so there is no "perfect" system, as such. However, people here seem to be confusing two distinct types of system. There is a system that strives for absolute accuracy in reproduction to what is on the source disc; and there is a type of system that instead tries to optimise the sound for maximum musical "enjoyment". The second type is considerably more "interpretative" than the first type."

I enjoyed your post but would point out the following. If the actual performance was emotionally moving and created an impression on the listeners that they remembered AND if the 'accurate' hi-fi - the one that extracts all of the details - misses out on this, then it is not a case of:

1) Naim hi-fi - pleasurable but not accurate

vs.

2) State-of-the-Art Round Earth hi-fi - accurate and faithful to the recording.

Instead, both systems are leaving out bits and offering an interpretation of what is in the source material. In this case, we are choosing the interpretation we want in either case. A studio monitor system may highlight every nuance but miss out on the more elusive, and harder to describe and quantify, emotional impact of the music.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Interesting thread. I can strongly relate to the curiosity of Ludwig/Erik.

I read through the responses, expecting to somewhere see someone paste a quote from Julian himself that was posted here long, long ago. I don't remember if it was one of his posts or a link to an interview that was published somewhere but it was many many years ago that I recall reading it here. (I do remember reading it, and THINK it was here, buy memory is fallible so I make no excuses. I could be wrong...) BUT his comments were very much in response to just this sort of opinion about what is supposedly wrong with Naim amps.

I don't have the quote but can remember very much the spirit and gist of his comments. Basically he said (note, that even though I am using quotation marks, this is not a true quote. The quotation marks are only to provide some kind of editorial sense here...) Anyway, he said something like "Everybody says you can't make a good sounding amp using class B. Now why, you might ask? Well, people respond "the distortion will be too high". But you ask them if they've ever built a class B amp and measured it and they say no, but that so-and-so said it would sound like crap in his textbook way back in the 60's. And then you talk to other people and they also say, "it can't work" because some other so-and-so said it couldn't work in their textbook in the '80's. You ask that author why? and he refers back, eventually, to the same source from the '60's. Everybody's quoting the same thing, saying it can't be done but nobody's tried it out, tried it for themselves. What we've done is to look at the circuit, look at why it behaves the way it does, analyzing it carefully and taking great care in the way we build it. And the result is as you hear it. People tell us all the time, "your amps sound like crap" and then you ask them to listen and they're just blown away. How can something that is supposed to sound so bad on paper sound so good? So natural? Easy. We've done the hard part..."

OK, hope my attempt to replicate the feeling and spirit of Julian's comments inspire someone with more time than I to seek out that wonderful interview or his postings from the Forum.

Markus
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[This message was edited by Markus on MONDAY 12 May 2003 at 21:34.]

Julian's comments, a recollection

Interesting thread. I can strongly relate to the curiosity of Ludwig/Erik.

I read through the responses, expecting to somewhere see someone paste a quote from Julian himself that was posted here long, long ago. I don't remember if it was one of his posts or a link to an interview that was published somewhere but it was many many years ago that I recall reading it here. (I do remember reading it, and THINK it was here, buy memory is fallible so I make no excuses. I could be wrong...) BUT his comments were very much in response to just this sort of opinion about what is supposedly wrong with Naim amps.

I don't have the quote but can remember very much the spirit and gist of his comments. Basically he said (note, that even though I am using quotation marks, this is not a true quote. The quotation marks are only to provide some kind of editorial sense here...) Anyway, he said something like "Everybody says you can't make a good sounding amp using class B. Now why, you might ask? Well, people respond "the distortion will be too high". But you ask them if they've ever built a class B amp and measured it and they say no, but that so-and-so said it would sound like crap in his textbook way back in the 60's. And then you talk to other people and they also say, "it can't work" because some other so-and-so said it couldn't work in their textbook in the '80's. You ask that author why? and he refers back, eventually, to the same source from the '60's. Everybody's quoting the same thing, saying it can't be done but nobody's tried it out, tried it for themselves. What we've done is to look at the circuit, look at why it behaves the way it does, analyzing it carefully and taking great care in the way we build it. And the result is as you hear it. People tell us all the time, "your amps sound like crap" and then you ask them to listen and they're just blown away. How can something that is supposed to sound so bad on paper sound so good? So natural? Easy. We've done the hard part..."

OK, hope my attempt to replicate the feeling and spirit of Julian's comments inspire someone with more time than I to seek out that wonderful interview or his postings from the Forum.

Markus
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[This message was edited by Markus on MONDAY 12 May 2003 at 21:34.]

Markus,

I doubt JV could have put it better!

Andy.