NAIM Design Criticism
Posted by: ErikL on 10 May 2003
Hello,
I do not currently own any NAIM equipment, but I certainly aspire (I hope to save for an entry-level NAIT5/CD5/FC2 system w/ bookshelf speakers; possibly Epos, JMLab, Neat, or Dynaudio). I recently found the following post, dated July 2000, on another hi-fi board.
I am very interested in any design insight or clarification from folks here.
Thanks,
-Erik-
"To the Naim owners and fans, skip over this post it will be painfull.
All Naim products are NOT high performance audio equipment by their electronic design. I will not address their looks, price, marketing,ect. I will only state the electronic facts, and they are shamefull. As I stated before the basic core circuit design was a rip-off from a mid 60's RCA design book. It is pure class B and full of crossover distortion. If you like that sound you bought the right amp! The signal coupling cap are the worst you could pick TANTALUM! The 1980's amps had undersized power supplys and their voltage went up and down with the bass (remember the phrase about the music having "jump" and "bounce", well thats what the DC voltage was doing), not a good thing. The quality of the parts inside was not what any of us would want, their tolerance was to large.
If you took a Naim product to a REAL audio engineer they would shake their heads. Naim saw this and started making small changes to correct their problems, but they could not do to much or that would cast a bad light on their old products. They are better now but not good enough to be "high-end". To do this the would have to start over with a clean sheet of paper, no more RCA class B.
Remember a salesmans job is to get YOU to give HIM YOUR MONEY, and they did unfortunately in the case of Naim."
[This message was edited by Ludwig on SUNDAY 11 May 2003 at 05:21.]
[This message was edited by Ludwig on SUNDAY 11 May 2003 at 05:27.]
I do not currently own any NAIM equipment, but I certainly aspire (I hope to save for an entry-level NAIT5/CD5/FC2 system w/ bookshelf speakers; possibly Epos, JMLab, Neat, or Dynaudio). I recently found the following post, dated July 2000, on another hi-fi board.
I am very interested in any design insight or clarification from folks here.
Thanks,
-Erik-
"To the Naim owners and fans, skip over this post it will be painfull.
All Naim products are NOT high performance audio equipment by their electronic design. I will not address their looks, price, marketing,ect. I will only state the electronic facts, and they are shamefull. As I stated before the basic core circuit design was a rip-off from a mid 60's RCA design book. It is pure class B and full of crossover distortion. If you like that sound you bought the right amp! The signal coupling cap are the worst you could pick TANTALUM! The 1980's amps had undersized power supplys and their voltage went up and down with the bass (remember the phrase about the music having "jump" and "bounce", well thats what the DC voltage was doing), not a good thing. The quality of the parts inside was not what any of us would want, their tolerance was to large.
If you took a Naim product to a REAL audio engineer they would shake their heads. Naim saw this and started making small changes to correct their problems, but they could not do to much or that would cast a bad light on their old products. They are better now but not good enough to be "high-end". To do this the would have to start over with a clean sheet of paper, no more RCA class B.
Remember a salesmans job is to get YOU to give HIM YOUR MONEY, and they did unfortunately in the case of Naim."
[This message was edited by Ludwig on SUNDAY 11 May 2003 at 05:21.]
[This message was edited by Ludwig on SUNDAY 11 May 2003 at 05:27.]
Here's a fairly simple, but perhaps revolutionary thought for the HiFi specs, soundstaging, imaging and resolution freaks/obsessives.
Listen to the music.
Oh, you've heard that one before?
Well far be it from me to be a bore, but here I was labouring under the misunderstanding that having a HiFi in the home was all about listening to the music.
Not the system, or the recording, the acoustics of the recording space, artificialy induced or real, subway trains, small children tripping over mike cords, or the second violinist scratching their nether regions.
Or did I miss something?
Speaking as a trained/performing musician, I find so many HiFi 'golden eared' enthusiasts are more enamoured of the ability of their HiFi 'toy/hobby' than they are of the music they actually play on their systems.
So often, the emphasis seems to be on the music being the means to 'show off/demonstrate' the HiFi. So much so, that I actively discourage various friends/associates from wanting to come over 'for a listen' to my Naim HiFi, as invariably it is always about making comparisons v's their own equipment etc - a task best left to a HiFi dealer, - and a gesture of friendship, that experience has taught me to be predominately a somewhat meaningless excercise for all concerned.
I listen to music on my system, NOT the system itself. IMV, that is because it's calibre is sufficient in it's qualities of reproduction, that it 'gets out of the way' as it were, and allows the music to come through re communication of the musical message.
Soundstaging and imaging is important to be sure in re creating the sense of living performers in ones room/space, or perhaps the sense of looking out through an acoustic window on to a stage if one prefers that analogy.
As such, the sense of air and space between performers/instruments, and in the case of an orchestra, some semblance of the traditional layout of an orchestra, very much aids in the sense of 'realism' re the venue, assuming one had an ideal seat/perspective.
As has been already pointed out however, this is very much a variable depending upon the venue, where one is seated/standing, or the mix of the individual recording as laid down by the engineer.
Having played in orchestras, perhaps hearing another player drop his music sheet for example, might increase that sense of 'being there', but only if one had reference to the original performance if listening to a recording of that event.
And you'd have to have been in the Orchestra, not the audience to notice it. Otherwise, did it happen? Was it meant to happen? A mistake perhaps? Or more to the point IMHO, in musical terms, does it really matter?
Does one want/need to hear the subtlties captured by multi-miking, or to listen to the music.
IF one is listening to the music, the overall resolution, and tonal balance of the system will render vocal and instrumental timbres accurately enough to make the instrument believable and identifiable in its sonic signature, notwithstanding that this same high resolution will capture hiccups, heavy breathing etc if it exists on the recording.
Hence, being able to tell the difference between a Bosendorfer and a Steinway is an important consideration for me for example.
Being able to hear fully fleshed out tonal timbre, with the harmonic texture 'just right' is one of the Naim qualities re MUSICAL reproduction I have seldom heard elsewhere, excluding some valve amps, and electrostatics also do very well here in the speaker camp.
If you're playing an instrument such as a piano, assumning a level of technical ability/mastery of the instrument, then their is a world of difference between artistry, and simply 'being a typist' as one of my teachers was oft to say in criticism of pianists who merely 'played the notes' as she so aptly put it.
It's the subtlties of rubato, the way one shapes a phrase, individual weighting of notes re finger pressure, and speed of attack that determines the tone, and most importantly the way music is communicated not just as notes on a page expressed in notation as variations in pitch and time, but a musical message to which we respond both intellectually and emotionally.
And that's the difference between merely playing the music/instrument, and being an artist with something to say and share.
THAT is why a HiFi system MUST have excellent dynamics, both major and micro if you will, to correctly reveal these subtle nuances of timbral tone, pitch, and above all, timing if it is to have any hope of actually reproducing MUSIC, as against hall/studio acoustics, and the 2nd violinist parting wind as others have so eloquently put it etc.
Music is just that - we know it when we respond to it. It is not some sort of abstract acoustic wallpaper which we sit back and analyize like so many audiophiles do - carping over this and that of the recording.
And that is why I use Naim equipment, as after many years of musical study, and many involved in the HiFi world, I have not found anything else that 'does' it better in regard to it's ability with tonal timbre, and dynamics; just two, but perhaps the most important of some of the aspects of a HiFi's ability re musical reproduction IMV.
Anyway, rant over
I hope I didn't offend anyone, and my apolgies if that comes across, but I must admit to becomming more than a trifle annoyed at discussions that seem to miss the whole point of a HiFi, and that is to enable you to listen to, and respond to MUSIC.
Pretty much everything else is artifice IMHO.
Musically yours
Cheers,
John
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Listen to the music.
Oh, you've heard that one before?
Well far be it from me to be a bore, but here I was labouring under the misunderstanding that having a HiFi in the home was all about listening to the music.
Not the system, or the recording, the acoustics of the recording space, artificialy induced or real, subway trains, small children tripping over mike cords, or the second violinist scratching their nether regions.
Or did I miss something?
Speaking as a trained/performing musician, I find so many HiFi 'golden eared' enthusiasts are more enamoured of the ability of their HiFi 'toy/hobby' than they are of the music they actually play on their systems.
So often, the emphasis seems to be on the music being the means to 'show off/demonstrate' the HiFi. So much so, that I actively discourage various friends/associates from wanting to come over 'for a listen' to my Naim HiFi, as invariably it is always about making comparisons v's their own equipment etc - a task best left to a HiFi dealer, - and a gesture of friendship, that experience has taught me to be predominately a somewhat meaningless excercise for all concerned.
I listen to music on my system, NOT the system itself. IMV, that is because it's calibre is sufficient in it's qualities of reproduction, that it 'gets out of the way' as it were, and allows the music to come through re communication of the musical message.
Soundstaging and imaging is important to be sure in re creating the sense of living performers in ones room/space, or perhaps the sense of looking out through an acoustic window on to a stage if one prefers that analogy.
As such, the sense of air and space between performers/instruments, and in the case of an orchestra, some semblance of the traditional layout of an orchestra, very much aids in the sense of 'realism' re the venue, assuming one had an ideal seat/perspective.
As has been already pointed out however, this is very much a variable depending upon the venue, where one is seated/standing, or the mix of the individual recording as laid down by the engineer.
Having played in orchestras, perhaps hearing another player drop his music sheet for example, might increase that sense of 'being there', but only if one had reference to the original performance if listening to a recording of that event.
And you'd have to have been in the Orchestra, not the audience to notice it. Otherwise, did it happen? Was it meant to happen? A mistake perhaps? Or more to the point IMHO, in musical terms, does it really matter?
Does one want/need to hear the subtlties captured by multi-miking, or to listen to the music.
IF one is listening to the music, the overall resolution, and tonal balance of the system will render vocal and instrumental timbres accurately enough to make the instrument believable and identifiable in its sonic signature, notwithstanding that this same high resolution will capture hiccups, heavy breathing etc if it exists on the recording.
Hence, being able to tell the difference between a Bosendorfer and a Steinway is an important consideration for me for example.
Being able to hear fully fleshed out tonal timbre, with the harmonic texture 'just right' is one of the Naim qualities re MUSICAL reproduction I have seldom heard elsewhere, excluding some valve amps, and electrostatics also do very well here in the speaker camp.
If you're playing an instrument such as a piano, assumning a level of technical ability/mastery of the instrument, then their is a world of difference between artistry, and simply 'being a typist' as one of my teachers was oft to say in criticism of pianists who merely 'played the notes' as she so aptly put it.
It's the subtlties of rubato, the way one shapes a phrase, individual weighting of notes re finger pressure, and speed of attack that determines the tone, and most importantly the way music is communicated not just as notes on a page expressed in notation as variations in pitch and time, but a musical message to which we respond both intellectually and emotionally.
And that's the difference between merely playing the music/instrument, and being an artist with something to say and share.
THAT is why a HiFi system MUST have excellent dynamics, both major and micro if you will, to correctly reveal these subtle nuances of timbral tone, pitch, and above all, timing if it is to have any hope of actually reproducing MUSIC, as against hall/studio acoustics, and the 2nd violinist parting wind as others have so eloquently put it etc.
Music is just that - we know it when we respond to it. It is not some sort of abstract acoustic wallpaper which we sit back and analyize like so many audiophiles do - carping over this and that of the recording.
And that is why I use Naim equipment, as after many years of musical study, and many involved in the HiFi world, I have not found anything else that 'does' it better in regard to it's ability with tonal timbre, and dynamics; just two, but perhaps the most important of some of the aspects of a HiFi's ability re musical reproduction IMV.
Anyway, rant over
I hope I didn't offend anyone, and my apolgies if that comes across, but I must admit to becomming more than a trifle annoyed at discussions that seem to miss the whole point of a HiFi, and that is to enable you to listen to, and respond to MUSIC.
Pretty much everything else is artifice IMHO.
Musically yours
Cheers,
John
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
NOT A SINGLE OFFICIAL RESPONSE from The Naim temple. hahahah
If you are one of the very few manufacturers, even after all these years, that have actually managed to implement class AB designs correctly, you don't then go telling the competition how you do it
JV's posts were as ever a goldmine of useful information, giving away much more than initial readings indicate. Scratch the surface for more...
Andy.
Andy,
It was a fairly obvious statement to make at the time, I guess the rest of us were just a bit too polite to mention it!
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
quote:
Date: 19-Nov-99 03:43
Author: Andrew Boshoff
Subject: interview quote
But some things have changed since the interview:
JV: "...I can't think of any audiophile or high-end companies that manufacture a power amplifier which comes in two separate boxes, one the power supply and one the amplifier. It's just not a sensible way of doing it, of putting that sort of uncertainty of a separate cable in between the power supply and amplifier part of it"
And now we have the NAP500 with its separate power supply.
Andrew
It was a fairly obvious statement to make at the time, I guess the rest of us were just a bit too polite to mention it!
quote:
Date: 19-Nov-99 11:38
Author: julian vereker
Subject: Yes & no
Andrew,
Actually nothing has changed (much). What we have done in the 500PS is to take the AC mains and turn it into several raw DC supplies which are then taken to the 500 itself using new connectors of a type and rating which only became available a few of months ago.
All the power supply regulation is in the 500 and is in fact even closer coupled to the power amps than in the 250.
Just a subtle change of the rules.
julian
PS I've been wondering how long it would be before someone would draw my attention to that part of that interview - I think it deserves a free (Naim) CD - please email me at Naim with an address and a choice (if you wish).
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com