Fraim glass

Eagerly awaiting your findings Martin...

regards,

dave

LOL...Andrew...it's only hifi;-) I think Martin's reputation will still be intact regardless.

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He claims "no difference" - in direct contradicton to the service department in Salisbury. Gasp! Don't let children read this. Heretic. He must be deaf. Ostracise him quickly.

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LOL...wrong forum. Try Manaland. Worst case scenario here is Martin would be told his experience contradicts the norm (whenever it's established).

regards,

dave

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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:
I thought "polishing your [fraim] balls" was hilarious, but this is the best yet!!!!

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Andrew,

I would just like to point out that it is entirely concievable that toughened glass will have different physical properties on it's two faces, because of the physical mechanism by which it is produced.

It is impossible to cut toughened glass, so any sheet that you buy will have been produced as standard float glass. This is cut to size, and the edges shaped (any frosting and hole drilling would also be done at this stage).

The final stage in production of the sheet is the toughening. The glass is placed in an oven and heated (I think I read of 700C, but could be wrong here). The glass is then removed from the heat and rapidly cooled by a blast of cold air. I am guessing that this is only applied to one side of the glass, which would explain why the two faces would not be identical.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Given that I accept the concept of directional cables etc I am open minded enough to accept the possibility of the glass have the described properties - however is there a visible way of detecting which side of the glass is the brighter side - looking at the Fraim glass it appears symetric re the chamfer along the edges - on one sheet there is a stress mark along one edge - but that is all I can see.

If the effect is true it is a bit of a bother with removing and fitting new Fraim/Glass guards and removing the sticky gunge.

Derek

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What possible effect could this have on the sound!

Some one is being taken for a ride here.

I really hope it's not another parting shot ala Mark Tuckers directional fuse kick before he left.

Remember?

P

the five stars are from me. While the difference between the two positions of the hardened glass is not that big, no doubt it does exist, and this is the kind of upgrade that costs nothing.

I did not yet even knocked on the glass, I just tried the sound quality of the two positions and yes, one side sounds brighter and in my overdamped room definitely better. (My Fraims are not original ones, just imitations, but the glass is hardened and I think the technology is the same so what I hear is more or less valid for the real Fraim owners.)

I don’t think we should give any explanation for that phenomena. Any industrial objects made by man has undergone some severe energy ingest that is not necessarily unidirectional. I remember the Linn LP12’s felt mat. It was a more simple item than hardened glass, yet it was not unidirectional, either.

graphoman

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Originally posted by AndrewThomas:
So, Martin, can you hear the difference now?

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Andrew,

Yes, but...

I completely re-built the Fraim this morning. This included re-levelling both bases, and breaking and re-making every nut and spike connection. Of course I ended up late for work, but I couldn't do the build last night because I was working late, so fair enough, I think.

The differences in sound when the glass is tapped are small (smaller than I expected), but repeatable. In some cases I had to tap all around the glass to be sure of the difference (as Mark had advised), on others there was a noticeable difference.

I wouldn't say that one orientation gave a brighter sound, more that it had a better 'ring', and the other died away more quickly. If tapped more strongly, the tone was sweeter one way around, and went momentarily sour during the decay the other, which is presumably caused by the different resonant frequencies dying away at different rates.

I only noticed this latter on the last level, so cannot say whether this correlates with the longest ring, but I would guess that it is the actual mechanism by which one side sounds different to the other - the evenness of the decay of the sound across the audio band.

Over half a dozen tracks the bass does seem to be tighter, and the music seems to be easier to follow. This despite a power cut on Wednesday (the power amps remained on during my other recent re-builds), and repeated brown-outs this evening.

It could be, though, that I've finally nailed the seup of the Fraim. AFAICT, it needs to be done up *just* tight enough that it won't come undone of it's own accord.

I didn't understand why this info hadn't been published before. This reaction might discourage other information from being shared in the future, and that's a shame. Noone seems to ridicule the glass tapping that is a standard part of the setup of a Mana rack, and the glass orientation there is pre-determined by someone in the factory when they affix the damping strips & logo.

This forum used to be about people trying to get the most from their Naim gear.

Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

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This forum used to be about people trying to get the most from their Naim gear.

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Martin,

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to report this setup tip (as well as the results with your rig). If time permits, I'll try this tip with my Fraims this weekend (if not, next weekend for sure!) I'm certain I can speak for others here in hoping a bit of background noise won't discourage you from posting similar information in the future. Your contributions are always invaluable.

regards,

dave

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:
The glass is then removed from the heat and rapidly cooled by a blast of cold air. I am guessing that this is only applied to one side of the glass, which would explain why the two faces would not be identical.

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It seems that this is NOT the case, see heat treatment process.

Perhaps it is due to different temperatures of the two faces as they come out of the furnace, but before the cooling jets are applied.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Richard (Dane),

Assuming you'll take a peak at this thread....how goes the Naim Setup Guide?

regards,

dave

According to Quench patterns in toughened glass:-

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This process inherently results in a slightly higher level of surface compression directly opposite the air nozzles or slots. This, in turn, produces a slightly more dense glass at these locations.

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This certainly seems to explain why different sheets react slightly differently to each other when tapped.

If the upper & lower nozzles are offset against each other across the width of the production line it would also explain why the two sides would be slightly different to each other.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

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I really hope it's not another parting shot ala Mark Tuckers [sic] directional fuse kick before he left.

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P

you really should sort this out. Mark was serious, Chris was serious, I am serious. There is only one way up for the fuse. That was not a fools errand thread - it was on the level, as is this.

regards

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico,

agreed that this makes a difference, but not as big as putting new fuses into older kit (proper Naim ones).

Even Les has stated that case fuses should be replaced annually.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

I find the contradictions on this forum fascinating.

Stands do make a difference.

Cables do make a difference.

So why on this forum do people say that cables make no difference despite the massive differences between the materials construction etc of different cables.

And then say that they can hear the difference between the way up a piece of glass is used.

I have for years played with a variety of fruit bat type tweeks. I still like reef knots in my mains cables and some interconnect cables. i also have stands but not glass.
It tends to harden up the sound and make it brittle. But the way up a piece of glass is ???????????????????????

PVC tape placed under the glass will alter and damp the resonance characteristic of the glass.

But really i love the contradiction of only accepting that certain tweeks work and others do not.

Cables!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that NAIM will bring out a new series of cables as the market for cables is huge and a lot of their equipment is used with non NAIM cables.

Even the new stuff has RCA PLugs instead of DIN ONLY. Also NAIM mix connectors with DIN and XLR on the same cable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A series of problems with long held beliefs and philosophies will be overturned by market demand.

Regards David

Martin

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Even Les has stated that case fuses should be replaced annually.

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that's a new one on me! I'll give it a try next year.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico,

might as well revive an old thread...

Take a look at http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=67019385&f=48019385&m=387198867.

Can't find Les' comment for the moment...

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Just finished listening to some music after flipping my Fraim glass (4 out of 6 pieces required reversing). Unfortunately there were too many variables in my tear-down to conclude anything. I took advantage of the moment to clean the connectors and move both Fraim arrays (so I could keep the boxes powered up during any future tear-downs).

Agreeing with Martin here, what Naim describes as the "brighter of the two sides", I'd refer to more as a "better ring" (or a somewhat better defined pitch with a longer decay). Again (as Martin found), not all of the pieces of glass were easily tested (only two of mine were distinctly different in pitch from one side to the other).

One item of interest (for me anyway) was the idea that my carpet (a thin, commercial carpet with a heavy, tightly-woven jute backing glued to a concrete-slab floor) *might* be impeding the flow of energy from the stand's spikes into the floor. The carpet, however thin, still "rode up" the floor spikes an eighth of an inch. With the heavy jute weave, it must have dampened vibrations to some extent. Using a razor knife, I cut holes in the carpet to allow the floor spikes complete freedom from the dampening effects of carpet touching the spike's side walls and immediately noticed a difference in sounds when I rapped a Fraim's wooden portion. Previously, rapping a wooden portion of the stand with a knuckle produced a dull thud at best...now the wood clearly resonates--sounding more like a real piece of wood that's been rapped by a knuckle. Desirable or not...who knows?

Regardless, flipping the glass, cleaning the connectors, cutting carpet spike holes (or all of the these) has made a small, audible improvement to the sound. Melody lines are just a bit easier to follow (songs grab your attention more).

I'll give it another go in two weeks once everything's settled and warmed-up. This time I'll only flip one piece of glass (under my CDS transport) while making no other changes to the rig and report results.

regards,

dave

Sorry.

My system is overdamped, in need of more treble so I’ve thought the brighter sound would be wellcomed. It was a fatal error. Having changed all 5 glass plates onto their brighter sounding position, I got a very agressive sound, unbearable on classical music.

If just tapping on the glass positioned onto the bearing, unfortunately, I was never sure whether I got the real top side. It’s a matter that should be learned to judge it. Listening to the installed system, however, gave me the certainty that in at least 4 cases of the 5, I did define the position of the glass the right way.

IMHO the two positions of the glass give us not a “brighter” (as opposed to a “dull”) sound but rather an agressive one (as opposed to a “tranquil”, “even”, “peaceful” presentation).

As far as I can remember the case of the Linn LP 12’s felt mat (I’ve played with such some 15 years ago) it was the “even” sounding side that was to be preferred. I think the case was similar to the one of the hardened glass.

graphoman

Jesus Christ.

Indeed Alex, indeed.

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Jesus Christ.

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Indeed Alex, indeed.

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Gentlemen,

If these are the most positive contributions you have to offer, please stay off this thread.

regards,

dave

[This message was edited by Richard Dane on SUNDAY 26 October 2003 at 18:31.]

Only if you promise to get some sort of life.

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Only if you promise to get some sort of life.

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LOL!!!...take a look at you post count vs. mine--now compare our forum registration dates. I'd say this indicates I'm more likely to have a life ;-)

regards,

dave

Dave

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Jesus Christ.

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Says it all, I reckon.