Fraim glass

Furthermore

Fraim is obviously very 'tweaky' if one has a mind to 'tweak'.

The intructions supplied with it are rudimentary to say the least. I know a few people who wouldn't be able to put it together, let alone, realise its potential.

I gather that dealers are not 'encouraged' to install it, which I guess is fair enough, as it's pretty time consuming to 'build' a system onto Fraim and do it properly.

So; is it time to 'expand' the instructions, to enable those of a mind to get it right.

At a very basic level, 'how tight is tight'? should be in print. There's gonna be plenty of Fraim out there that's too loose or too tight.

And that alone, SERIOUSLY affects the way the thing sounds.

I know that Naim's view is that getting too tweaky can be counter-productive and scare 'normal' customers away; (like this forum!), but maybe 'Fraim tuning instructions' ought to be made available?

Nice one J.N.

regards,

dave

Dave S

Thanks for the time and effort you put in with your experimentation and the posting of the results.

I, for one, found it thought-provoking and enjoyable to read.

Jeff A

Alex, rumor has it, Jesus was at level 6 on his sandals, strictly for stabilization and nuance, of course. Tweaky man, I presume.

dave (and martin)

Also a thanks from me for taking the time to provide this forum with some constructive information on how to get this most out of (Naim)gear.

Please continue as there are some folks out here who do appreciate the tips.

Regards,
Jim

You're welcome guys.

regards,

dave

Alex S.
“Jesus Christ.”

No, Alex, I’ve just listened to West Side Story

graphoman

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Originally posted by dave simpson:
Just finished listening to some music after flipping my Fraim glass (4 out of 6 pieces required reversing). Unfortunately there were too many variables in my tear-down to conclude anything. I took advantage of the moment to clean the connectors and move both Fraim arrays (so I could keep the boxes powered up during any future tear-downs).

Agreeing with Martin here, what Naim describes as the "brighter of the two sides", I'd refer to more as a "better ring" (or a somewhat better defined pitch with a longer decay). Again (as Martin found), not all of the pieces of glass were easily tested (only two of mine were distinctly different in pitch from one side to the other).

One item of interest (for me anyway) was the idea that my carpet (a thin, commercial carpet with a heavy, tightly-woven jute backing glued to a concrete-slab floor) *might* be impeding the flow of energy from the stand's spikes into the floor. The carpet, however thin, still "rode up" the floor spikes an eighth of an inch. With the heavy jute weave, it must have dampened vibrations to some extent. Using a razor knife, I cut holes in the carpet to allow the floor spikes complete freedom from the dampening effects of carpet touching the spike's side walls and immediately noticed a difference in sounds when I rapped a Fraim's wooden portion. Previously, rapping a wooden portion of the stand with a knuckle produced a dull thud at best...now the wood clearly resonates--sounding more like a real piece of wood that's been rapped by a knuckle. Desirable or not...who knows?

Regardless, flipping the glass, cleaning the connectors, cutting carpet spike holes (or all of the these) has made a small, audible improvement to the sound. Melody lines are just a bit easier to follow (songs grab your attention more).

I'll give it another go in two weeks once everything's settled and warmed-up. This time I'll only flip one piece of glass (under my CDS transport) while making no other changes to the rig and report results.

regards,

dave

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Hi Dave,

Was the spike/carpet interface the same when you had Mana? If it was, removing the carpet from the spike area is definately something I would have recommended to you when you were struggling with the setup. I would find it next to impossible to maximize the setup of a SoundStage with the spike/carpet interface you described. Glad it's sorted out

Best,
John

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Was the spike/carpet interface the same when you had Mana? If it was, removing the carpet from the spike area is definately something I would have recommended to you when you were struggling with the setup. I would find it next to impossible to maximize the setup of a SoundStage with the spike/carpet interface you described.

Hi John,

Yes, it was the very same. I know where you're going and you may be correct, however, both Mana and Fraim's spikes are so sharp (combined with the mass of equipment) neither had problems penetrating the jute backing (unlike my AF/Base which did because of their shallow, rounded cones). They simply were "dampened" by the action of carpet one-eighth of an inch up around their spikes. Regardless (and as you are thinking), the same dampening effects had to be occuring with the Mana stand. The question now is did it cause the specific sonic problems I found so objectionable (and which ultimately caused me to sell the Mana stands.....who knows?)

You would think if this were the case...the majority of Mana users have their stands setup upon carpet that's probably "thicker" than mine therefore my particular problem (pitches out of tune) should be rampant and documented (as opposed to the few cases like mine that have been reported). It is possible my particular carpet's backing may heavily "dampen" the spikes and impede energy transfer more so than "typical" carpet in the average Mana household. Additionally, with Mana very different from Fraim design-wise, my carpet-from-hell (sorry Richard ;-) might affect Mana more seriously than it does Fraim. I guess we'd have to question those that had similar complaints (Chris K. definitely and Dev *I believe*) to see if they had experienced my specific negative Mana results while using tightly-woven-backed carpet.

Regardless...good investigative skills ;-)

regards,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on MONDAY 27 October 2003 at 23:29.]

"I know where you're going and you may be correct, however, both Mana and Fraim's spikes are so sharp (combined with the mass of equipment) neither had problems penetrating the jute backing" Dave

I'm referring more to the setup of the first Soundstage which is very light and very important to the performance of the rack to get right. Free and unrestricted direct interface with the concrete would be necessary IMO to get this part right. Especially when trying to set it up using the Bub/Jong method of making sure there is no tension in the stage. Mine was off and the performance of the rack was improved once getting this part right.

See this thread for a description.

Sound Stage setup

Regards,
John

John,

I just remembered something important after my last post...I experienced the same problems (pitch distortion, skewed frequency balance)listening to two different Mana'd rigs--one on thick(er)-carpeted suspended wood floor, the other on non-carpeted hardwoods. Darn....thought we might have been on to something here.

regards,

dave

Hi John,

I used a varient of the Bub/Jong method myself without realising it before the boys invented it. I always checked for frame tension when building the levels by lifting the frame front slightly before spike adjustment to release any pressure (very important in my opinion). I also used the traditional JW approach with the boards (two-finger-two-corner test..another vital test IMO).

regards,

dave

"Using a razor knife, I cut holes in the carpet to allow the floor spikes complete freedom from the dampening effects of carpet touching the spike's side walls and immediately noticed a difference in sounds when I rapped a Fraim's wooden portion. Previously, rapping a wooden portion of the stand with a knuckle produced a dull thud at best...now the wood clearly resonates--sounding more like a real piece of wood that's been rapped by a knuckle. Desirable or not...who knows?" Dave


Just after reading what you said here I thought this would have caused the same problem with setting up the SoundStage. When both spikes hit the concrete at the same time the Soundstage has a distinct ring to it. If the spikes are not always hitting the concrete cleanly after each adjustment to the spikes (which they might not after readjustment to the spikes because to the changing position of the spikes in relation to where they hit after each adjustment). I would think this would make it next to impossible to get right.

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Just after reading what you said here I thought this would have caused the same problem with setting up the SoundStage.

It probably does..and it's not something I would have thought to check in my Mana days. I wonder what affect it has upon the Mana stands? Though it may or may not be significant with the Fraim from a performance standpoint--it's a huge difference if you're into the differences of knuckle-rapping on wood ;-)

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If the spikes are not always hitting the concrete cleanly after each adjustment to the spikes (which they might not after readjustment to the spikes because to the changing position of the spikes in relation to where they hit after each adjustment).

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Agreed...I always triple-checked my spikes during adjustment for this reason (usually with my nose inches away from the floor spikes trying to visually detect any movement whatsoever also making sure the room was dead quiet to ensure the least bit of tapping noise by a floor spike out of adjustment on the concrete could be heard.

JN will be visiting tomorrow, it will be interesting to see what he thinks of the latest system setup.

Reports to follow.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Dave, re your comment re putting mana on concrete and also cutting the carpet/underlay to make sure of contact - i can vouch for the effect NOT cutting the carpet has.
I set my mana up as usual, but didn't cut the carpet.
Then a few months later due to moving the rack very slightly this time i did cut the carpet.

Before actually taking the rack away I noticed one of the spikes had not actually pierced the underlay, more like it had trapped the underlay between it and the concrete floor.

On setting it all up again I made sure of proper contact with the spikes and concrete by cutting neat X's with a stanley knife.

In hindsight its difficult to be objective due to the switch off-on that happened, but the sound did seen to open up better.

I tested this with the SBL's, this time obviously I could leave everything powered up. Sound quality (especially bass and seperation) did improve slightly. This could be classed a a no cost tweak i suppose...

"Just after reading what you said here I thought this would have caused the same problem with setting up the SoundStage. When both spikes hit the concrete at the same time the Soundstage has a distinct ring to it. If the spikes are not always hitting the concrete cleanly after each adjustment to the spikes (which they might not after readjustment to the spikes because to the changing position of the spikes in relation to where they hit after each adjustment). I would think this would make it next to impossible to get right." JG

"Just after reading what you said here I thought this would have caused the same problem with setting up the SoundStage." JG

"It probably does..and it's not something I would have thought to check in my Mana days. I wonder what affect it has upon the Mana stands?" Dave

A Soundstage not setup correctly as the first thing you do when building the stack will probably insure that the other Mana sitting on it will also be out of tune especially once loaded up with gear. The first Soundstage would certainly be out of tune because of the spike settling into the carpet. This settling/sinkage would occur with a hardwood floor, it happened with my linoleum over concrete floor as well.

The point I want to make is that if you wait until the rack has settled to setup your first Soundstage correctly, you will probably be forced to use the same holes made in your soft material the first time you setup the Soundstage incorrectly. The position of the tiny holes made by the spikes hitting the floor change as you adjust the height of the spikes. If you use the Bub/Jong method to adjust the tension in the Soundstage you will end up having a very difficult time getting the twist/tension out of the Soundstage because the spikes keep wanting to go into the same dominant holes created by the first settling. Having a free area around the spike while adjusting the Soundstage is really necessary to get this right. Having a floor that doesn't allow spike sinkage helps a lot, a well cured concrete floor I know works real well.

Here's a picture that shows what I did to my linoleum floor around each spike to allow the spikes on the Soundstage a larger area to be setup in.



I did this shortly after moving the rack 3 years ago from my upstairs carpet over wood floor surface to my basement linoleum over poured concrete floor.

[This message was edited by John Gilleran on TUESDAY 28 October 2003 at 17:12.]

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Before actually taking the rack away I noticed one of the spikes had not actually pierced the underlay, more like it had trapped the underlay between it and the concrete floor.

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That's got to be some tough backing Andy...one thing I can say about Mana spikes-they're the sharpest in the business;-)

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The point I want to make is that if you wait until the rack has settled to setup your first Soundstage correctly, you will probably be forced to use the same holes made in your soft material the first time you setup the Soundstage incorrectly. The position of the tiny holes made by the spikes hitting the floor change as you adjust the height of the spikes. If you use the Bub/Jong method to adjust the tension in the Soundstage you will end up having a very difficult time getting the twist/tension out of the Soundstage because the spikes keep wanting to go into the same dominant holes created by the first settling. Having a free area around the spike while adjusting the Soundstage is really necessary to get this right. Having a floor that doesn't allow spike sinkage helps a lot, a well cured concrete floor I know works real well.

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John,

This discussion makes me wonder if my succesive stage frames (during "Mana phasing") distorted simply because of the increasing load of the additional levels+gear with no way for the tension to release as the floor stage's spikes were "captured" by the tough carpet backing--an insurmountable problem *unless* one cut a hole in the carpet with a diameter larger than the spike's shaft to allow some frame tension release?

Hmmmmm......


Dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on WEDNESDAY 29 October 2003 at 03:01.]

Dave,
re the spikes and underlay - i know what you mean, i was shocked myself as I've accidentally cut myself with the Mana spikes!

I did indeed get over to Martin Payne's for a listen yesterday evening.

Big changes since my last visit:-

More of the system on Fraim.

Toughened glass under the 135's on 'ball-nutters'.

Bolt holes scraped clean on (nearly) all the kit, to improve the earth bolt contact.

The system was sounding a lot more open and agile, with better definition just about everywhere.

We finished the evening with a 'glass tapping ceremony' (you must face Salisbury for this to work!).

Having tested the six pieces of glass upon which the 135's reside, and re-inserted them with 'best bong side up' the sound did without doubt, clean up generally.

Strange but true.

It annoys me when things get this anoraky and tweaky, but I was sufficiently convinced to make me 'bong my glass' the next time I re-build my Fraim.

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Toughened glass under the 135's on 'ball-nutters'.

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J.N./Martin,

AF Star(?)base under the ball-nutters (the 135s not yet Fraimed in other words?)

regards,

dave

Fraim-Bonging Part II this weekend.

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Originally posted by dave simpson:

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Toughened glass under the 135's on 'ball-nutters'.

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AF Star(?)base under the ball-nutters (the 135s not yet Fraimed in other words?)

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Dave,

CDS2/52/SNAXO on Fraim #1.

XPS/52PS/SuperCap/HiCap on Fraim #2.

135s on Base (not Starbase), with 3x ball-nutters & toughened glass instead of the boards.

LP12/Armageddon/Stageline setup currently in a state of flux. It's Cirkus/Ekos2/Dynavector TeKaitora and it's out-classed by the CDS2 at the moment. That'll teach me to fiddle with a setup that was working OK before!

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

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Originally posted by J.N.:
Bolt holes scraped clean on (nearly) all the kit, to improve the earth bolt contact.

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This is a procution change that Naim made on all kit that came out of the factory for about the last year of production of the olive kit. Not available on the chrome-bumper stuff.

This made a lot of the improvements. The timing was a lot better after this. Drum strikes were really better - as well as starting on time, they now also stopped on a six-pence. Much less splashy - enough to actually change the tonal balance.

Probably something to do with me being five miles from a 300KW BBC radio & TV transmitter.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Martin

Where exactly are these bolt holes?

Cheers

Steve

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:

quote:

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Originally posted by J.N.:
Bolt holes scraped clean on (nearly) all the kit, to improve the earth bolt contact.

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This is a procution change that Naim made on all kit that came out of the factory for about the last year of production of the olive kit. Not available on the chrome-bumper stuff.

This made a lot of the improvements. The timing was a lot better after this. Drum strikes were really better - as well as starting on time, they now also stopped on a six-pence. Much less splashy - enough to actually change the tonal balance.

Probably something to do with me being five miles from a 300KW BBC radio & TV transmitter.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

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Martin,

Yoo need to change those 135's for 3xnew 250's, you know it makes sense!

Dev

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Originally posted by Dev B:
Yoo need to change those 135's for 3xnew 250's, you know it makes sense!

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Dev,

Paul Darwin was adamant that the 135 is better than the new 250.

As things stand at the moment, I think they may be right. I'm sure the new 250 would give a cleaner sound, but I'm not sure that it would give me the 'flat' stuff that I'm getting now.

The system has *really* come together with the latest changes, and the only fiddling I intend to do for a while is moving my right DBL out of the corner.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com