3*Olive 250 Vs 300 on NBL's - at long last!
Posted by: blythe on 17 December 2003
At long last, I have done the home demo comparing one 250 to one 300 (done some time ago) and one 300 Vs 3*250 (Olive) into NBL loudspeakers.
Turning back the clock, when I first took delivery of my NBL's during the summer, I originally compared a new 300 to my old Olive 250.
The 300 was without doubt, superior in every respect - clearer, better sound stage (wider) vocals sounded fuller and more realistic, bass was better controlled - in fact everything seemed to be better controlled and clearer.
Also, after one particularly heavy listening session, I had my first ever experience of my 250 shutting down.... It was too hot to touch :-(
Today I listened to my NBL's, in a blind test, (as in as much as I knew I was going to be listening to active 3*250's Vs 1*300 passive but had no idea which demo was which)
I did this because I thought I knew which Amp I "really wanted" and as the price, in my instance was going to work out about the same, I decided to listen and trust my ears.
(Price works out about the same by the time I trade in 2*250's and a snaxo 2-4 from my SBL days against a new 300)
First up was "unknown amp configuration".
Initial impressions were that the sound was very Naim but better than I usually experience with one 250. Wider soundstage, clearer vocals, more convincing vocals, clearer treble, better and deeper controlled bass - very much so the start and stop points of notes, better timing - pretty much as I remembered the 300 being better than a 250 when I did that comparison several months ago. It sounded more enjoyable and musical.
Then came demo No 2 (unkown Amp configuration 2!)
The vocals sounded relatively closed in, not really letting go and the sound was generally more muddled and less easy to enjoy. Not as cohesive, not as clear, not as dynamic with vocals and bass lines and timing not as good. This was obvious within seconds.
So, I boldly told my dealer that I preferred system No 1 as it was clearly better and the vocals and overall sound really was so much better on System No 1. It sounded more enjoyable to me.
He smiled and agreed that he felt the same and went on to reveal that my preferred system was........... 3*Olive 250's active.........
I can honestly say that I was pre-prepared to prefer the 300 passive based on my audition of passive 250 Vs passive 300 when I first took delivery of the NBL's.
I say this as the 300 on it's own was so much better than a single 250.
However, my 3 Olive 250's Vs the 300 proved to me that at this level, Active 250's is considerably better than a passive 300.
I must also add, that some people's idea that "New Naim" sound is totally different to "Olive Naim" is a bit far off the mark. New Naim still has the Naim qualities of old with a slightly different presentation, but is NOT a totally different animal.
Summing up; deep down inside, I really wanted to buy a 300 to replace my 250, bearing in mind, my previous system was an active 2*250's set-up feeding my old SBL's.
The 300 was such an improvement over the Olive 250 that I really expected a single 300 to knock the spots off active 250's into NBL's.
I was wrong, as proven to me in a blind test and I am now looking forward to getting an extra 250 to compliment my existing ones, coupled with the new 3-6 Cross-over.
Equipment used during the demo:
CDX2
XPS2
252
Supercap
(300 + power supply)
3*250 (Olive)
Snaxo 3-6 (Mk2 version - latest look)
Supercap (yes a 2nd one)
Naca 5
NBL's
LP12/Lingo/Ittok/DV 20x
a
I wonder what 3*300 active set-up would sound like????????
Don't rule out older Naim equipmet. As many of us older Naim users know, 20 year old Naim kit can still knock the spots off all kinds of equipment from other manufacturers!
I still maintain that a Naim system straight out of the box, sat on the floor will better most other manufacturers equipment sitting on ANY specialist stands.......
So there you have it, in my opinon :-)
Martin.
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 17 December 2003 by Minky
Martin,
Great post. Thanks for sharing your findings with us. A bit like you I wanted the 300 to win (because that would indirectly validate the path I took) but in my heart of hearts I knew that the active 250's would be very hard to beat.
Now do the same with a 500

Posted on: 17 December 2003 by Manu
I really must compare 3*250new vs 300 vs 500. According to your experience, 3*250new must be something (at par with a 500????).
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 18 December 2003 by Bosh
Very interesting and enlightening.....all with "only" Olive 250s and a fairly cold crossover.
Like Manu I too would like to see how Black face 250s active would compare to the NAP500.
Anyone had that demo yet. Somebody must have?
Posted on: 18 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Minky:
Martin,
Great post. Thanks for sharing your findings with us. A bit like you I wanted the 300 to win (because that would indirectly validate the path I took) but in my heart of hearts I knew that the active 250's would be very hard to beat.
Now do the same with a 500 
Errrr, hi Minky........ Errrr, wanna lend me the money for a 500 on a 25 year pay-back scheme? :-)
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 18 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
I really must compare 3*250new vs 300 vs 500. According to your experience, 3*250new must be something (at par with a 500????).
Emmanuel
Well, as I haven't heard a 500, I can't really comment :-)
3*New 250's would be an interesting dem, but at present, adding an Olvie 250 and 3-6 crossover to my exisitng set-up is costing about the same as a 300 and therefore, for me, is the way to go!
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by Brendan Price
Thank you so much Blythe!
I have NBL's driven by active olive 250's. I have been waiting for a post like this for some time. I have heard the latest black series 250 going through Allaes (Nac 282, CDX2), and I was not impressed at all. It's possible that it hasn't been run in though. There's little chance of me actually doing similar comparisons here in Australia. I'm thinking now that the way for me to go is to upgrade the Nac82 to a 52 or 252. By the way , what supports were you using? Also , have you compared using the snaxo 3-6 with hicap vs. supercap?
Brendan
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by ken c
brendan: in the context of my system -- active sbl's with 2x250 -- a supercap'ed snaxo 2-4 made a very worthwhile improvement from hicap -- more weight and solidity, and impression of less noise.. i used to think supercap'd snaxo was over-kill; i dont anymore.
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by ken c
martin: impressed by your pragmatic use of blind listening test.
i have also found active brings into the equation "something" that passive cant quite manage -- mind you i am overgeneralising here. i have also been keen to know people's experiences with 300 vs active 250's and your posting was useful in that respect. perhaps for passive to be better than active you need the mighty 500??
its so difficult to find the time to audition these various alternatives that a report like yours becomes very useful indeed...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by Manu
John,
The sistem you demoed was a mullet, Hi-end mullet, but still a mullet.

You should have been blown away, anyway, may be a setup issue?
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by Bob Edwards
Blythe--
Thanks very much for an well written and informative report. This was one combination I wouldn't have been able to guess the outcome--I'd have thought it would be too close to call.
It also suggests to me that the 500 is vastly better than a 300, since I've heard a passive 500 devastate a 6 pack into NBLs. Wasn't even close... 3 500's into NBLs was something ELSE!
Best,
Bob
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by ken c
purely from a price point of view (which i know is never a reliable indicator of quality) i guess it makes sense for active 250 to beat passive 300 since:
NAP300 4750
2x250 4500
snaxo 925
snaxo's hicap 900
a total for active of 6325, which is 1575 more than the passive.
this also suggests 4x135's active should completely blow the 300 away. is this so?? dunno...
of course, nap500 SHOULD be a different kettle of fish... and i guess i would expect it to be better than any active with lesser amps ... but i have never done this dem, so i am guessing, or simply repeating what i have heard from people whose views i respect here.
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Brendan Price:
By the way , what supports were you using? Also , have you compared using the snaxo 3-6 with hicap vs. supercap?
Brendan
Some is on wall mounted Quadrapsires (CDX2, 252, LP12) (no comments please) and some temporarily on Tripods for ease of the demo (250's and SNAXO and SUpercap) Swapping kit in my set-up is not easy due to space restrictions.
I actually am using an Olive Supercap in the set-up but do have an Olive Hi-Cap that I should be able to try as a comparison on the 3-6 over the weekend.
Martin.
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 19 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Needless to say I'm not in the least surprised 
Tom
Actively enjoying it all
Hi Tom, I'm not surprised that you're not surprised!
Actively enjoying it all ;-)
Martin.
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by JeremyB
Hi Martin,
Your observation is exactly the same as mine going from 2 x 135 to 500. I have nothing to add to your description of the differences. I was so disappointed I nearly sent the 500 back!
However, it turned out the problem was the mains supply and not following standard Naim practice. It appears that the new reference equipment has so much higher resolution there are several details of set-up that cannot be ignored. Once this was fixed there was no going back.
A good dealer should be able to set everything up so that equipment performs as it is supposed to. But the timing problem needs to be fixed first.
The question is, why would a dealer prefer the older amps. Perhaps because they have less resolution they are easier to set up? Perhaps the dealer will make more money on selling the older components?
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by NigelP
Hi all,
There seems to be some doubt as to whether a NAP500 passive is better than an active system. I did this test a couple of years ago at Naim and the results surprised me (see Naim visit report) poster on 27 Sept 2001. I now have a NAP500 and wouldn't part with it.
Nigel
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by Emil F
Martin
Very interesting post! Was the result equal with the CDP and the LP? CDS3 will show more skills than a CDX2, which a 300 can bring better than 3 x 250 olive. What about mains during the tests?
Regards,
Emil
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by JeremyB:
Hi Martin,
(edited)
The question is, why would a dealer prefer the older amps. Perhaps because they have less resolution they are easier to set up? Perhaps the dealer will make more money on selling the older components?
In the case of my dealer, I don't think he does prefer the old amps.
It's simply a case of I already have 2*250's (olive) from the days of my active SBL's, so to go active with my NBL's, the logical and cost effective way is to buy another Olive 250.
I think it's a case of my dealer agreed with me when I said I preferred the active system when compared to the passive, 300 (new) system, not that he prefers the older amps. With regard to resolution, to my ears, the active Olive 250's were better than the passive 300. I don't think setting up really came into the equation. My dealer is a long term and well respected Naim dealer who can arguably teach a thing or two to just about any other Naim dealer in existance. That's words I've read from other Naim dealers about him!
OK, you might argue that my dealer "would" agree with me in order to seal the deal. However, whether he agrees or not doesn't really matter as it's me that has to live with my decision. I feel I've made the right one :-)
Active with "new" 250's may be better than Olive ones or 300's or 500's, but that's not an affordable option for me to even consider auditioning at present!!
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
[This message was edited by blythe on SUNDAY 21 December 2003 at 00:54.]
[This message was edited by blythe on SUNDAY 21 December 2003 at 00:56.]
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
Martin
Very interesting post! Was the result equal with the CDP and the LP? CDS3 will show more skills than a CDX2, which a 300 can bring better than 3 x 250 olive. What about mains during the tests?
Regards,
Emil
The tests were conducted equally with LP and CD and I felt the results were equally obvious on both formats. Both LP and CD tests were conducted "blind".
Mains is on a dedicated ring main, with a hydra supllying all the Naim kit.
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 20 December 2003 by Brendan Price
Blythe , thanks again for your reply,
you see, this brings up a bit of an issue with me. I've been buying hifi off my local dealer here for over 10 years. I consider them to be the best in Melbourne. At first I bought Arcam gear , then came the fatefull day when I heard a 32.5 / 160 combo. I've had Naim stuff ever since. I've had almost blind faith in their opinions, out of which they (as well as myself) have benefitted. But lately , I'm not so sure, especially after hearing that CDX/Nac282/Nap250mk.2/Allaes on Fraim system. It just didnt do it for me. I think that just about every dealer would get a better margin by selling the new range rather than the older stuff , so I reckon that you're lucky that you have such an honest dealer.
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by Emil F
with a hydra supllying all the Naim kit.
Was it a Grahams hydra?
Regards.
Emil
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by tartarus
blythe
The real differnce would be in upgrading your source: CDX2 to a CDS3, then add the electronics.
Also upgrade your T/T to at least a ARO/Ekos tonearm and bin the Lingo get an Armageddon, it makes one hell of a difference to the LP12!
I still use a 250, this will not be replaced until I have a 552 feeding it....
Have fun

Posted on: 21 December 2003 by vimal
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Needless to say I'm not in the least surprised
Tom
Actively enjoying it all
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Tom, I'm not surprised that you're not surprised!
Actively enjoying it all ;-)
Martin.
Neither am I
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by vimal
The question is, why would a dealer prefer the older amps. Perhaps because they have less resolution they are easier to set up? Perhaps the dealer will make more money on selling the older components?
OR THE DEALER IS TELLING IT AS IT IS
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
_with a hydra supllying all the Naim kit._
Was it a Grahams hydra?
Regards.
Emil
Sorry but I have absolutely no idea if it was a Grahams and I'm not about to dismantle the kit to look for any labels etc!
Sounds good though :-)
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Well, there's no money with trade-in's and the old kit is no longer made or available new unless it's old stock which he want's to off load (but then why take the trouble of a blind test).
Tom
Actively enjoying it all
Assuming there's little or no money in trade ins, the only "real" money he'll make out of me is in the new 3-6 crossover and probably a Supercap.
Also if I get the 2nd hand Olive 250 from him, no doubt he will take a tiny profit on that (he will offer a short warranty after all).
I guess he is also taking into account that I did recently buy from him a pair of NBL's, a CDX2, XPS2 and 252 so maybe he's taking that into account.
I've also over the years, spent a hellofvalotta money with him. Basically, pretty well everything I've bought since 1985.....
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......