3*Olive 250 Vs 300 on NBL's - at long last!

Posted by: blythe on 17 December 2003

At long last, I have done the home demo comparing one 250 to one 300 (done some time ago) and one 300 Vs 3*250 (Olive) into NBL loudspeakers.

Turning back the clock, when I first took delivery of my NBL's during the summer, I originally compared a new 300 to my old Olive 250.
The 300 was without doubt, superior in every respect - clearer, better sound stage (wider) vocals sounded fuller and more realistic, bass was better controlled - in fact everything seemed to be better controlled and clearer.

Also, after one particularly heavy listening session, I had my first ever experience of my 250 shutting down.... It was too hot to touch :-(

Today I listened to my NBL's, in a blind test, (as in as much as I knew I was going to be listening to active 3*250's Vs 1*300 passive but had no idea which demo was which)
I did this because I thought I knew which Amp I "really wanted" and as the price, in my instance was going to work out about the same, I decided to listen and trust my ears.
(Price works out about the same by the time I trade in 2*250's and a snaxo 2-4 from my SBL days against a new 300)

First up was "unknown amp configuration".
Initial impressions were that the sound was very Naim but better than I usually experience with one 250. Wider soundstage, clearer vocals, more convincing vocals, clearer treble, better and deeper controlled bass - very much so the start and stop points of notes, better timing - pretty much as I remembered the 300 being better than a 250 when I did that comparison several months ago. It sounded more enjoyable and musical.

Then came demo No 2 (unkown Amp configuration 2!)
The vocals sounded relatively closed in, not really letting go and the sound was generally more muddled and less easy to enjoy. Not as cohesive, not as clear, not as dynamic with vocals and bass lines and timing not as good. This was obvious within seconds.

So, I boldly told my dealer that I preferred system No 1 as it was clearly better and the vocals and overall sound really was so much better on System No 1. It sounded more enjoyable to me.

He smiled and agreed that he felt the same and went on to reveal that my preferred system was........... 3*Olive 250's active.........

I can honestly say that I was pre-prepared to prefer the 300 passive based on my audition of passive 250 Vs passive 300 when I first took delivery of the NBL's.
I say this as the 300 on it's own was so much better than a single 250.

However, my 3 Olive 250's Vs the 300 proved to me that at this level, Active 250's is considerably better than a passive 300.

I must also add, that some people's idea that "New Naim" sound is totally different to "Olive Naim" is a bit far off the mark. New Naim still has the Naim qualities of old with a slightly different presentation, but is NOT a totally different animal.

Summing up; deep down inside, I really wanted to buy a 300 to replace my 250, bearing in mind, my previous system was an active 2*250's set-up feeding my old SBL's.
The 300 was such an improvement over the Olive 250 that I really expected a single 300 to knock the spots off active 250's into NBL's.

I was wrong, as proven to me in a blind test and I am now looking forward to getting an extra 250 to compliment my existing ones, coupled with the new 3-6 Cross-over.

Equipment used during the demo:
CDX2
XPS2
252
Supercap
(300 + power supply)
3*250 (Olive)
Snaxo 3-6 (Mk2 version - latest look)
Supercap (yes a 2nd one)
Naca 5
NBL's
LP12/Lingo/Ittok/DV 20x
a
I wonder what 3*300 active set-up would sound like????????

Don't rule out older Naim equipmet. As many of us older Naim users know, 20 year old Naim kit can still knock the spots off all kinds of equipment from other manufacturers!
I still maintain that a Naim system straight out of the box, sat on the floor will better most other manufacturers equipment sitting on ANY specialist stands.......

So there you have it, in my opinon :-)

Martin.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by tartarus:
blythe

The real differnce would be in upgrading your source: CDX2 to a CDS3, then add the electronics.

Also upgrade your T/T to at least a ARO/Ekos tonearm and bin the Lingo get an Armageddon, it makes one hell of a difference to the LP12!

I still use a 250, this will not be replaced until I have a 552 feeding it....

Have fun Smile

Yes, a CDS3 would be better, however, it's an expensive option, particularly as I have only recently bought the CDX2!!!!
The TT will stay as is for possibly ever. CD is now my main source, so i can't see me spending more money on the LP12 except for a new cartrideg when I need one (only just bought the DV)
Armageddon, if I'm not mistaken, does not cater for 45's and I don't want to go back to the "swapping the pulley" every time I want to play a 45!
Plus, MORE expense!
Nice thoughts though :-)
The other thing is that all Naim speakers are capable of showing the improvements offered by a better front end. However, one of the key reasons for me looking at improving my amplification, was to prevent my 250 from cutting out on it's thermal trip again!
Going active, apart from sounding better will give me the power I need :-)

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Brendan Price:
(edited) But lately , I'm not so sure, especially after hearing that CDX/Nac282/Nap250mk.2/Allaes on Fraim system. It just didnt do it for me. I think that just about every dealer would get a better margin by selling the new range rather than the older stuff , so I reckon that you're lucky that you have such an honest dealer.


Hi Brendan, I appreciate your points but am surprised that you say that the demo "didn't do it for you". Not sure what was lacking or whatever, but as I've said, the 300 is MUCH better than an old 250 in passive form driving NBL's.
My dealer has always insisted I trust my ears and I have always listened to his advice and done just that.
He knew that this demo might mean I didn't buy the 300 and he appeared to agree with my judgment. Yes it means he won't sell me a 300 today - but maybe he's also thinking that one day I might buy 3*300's

I do also recall some years ago, dealing with past emplyees of his business, that they were amazed that I liked the SBL in preference to Linn Kabers. It transpired that most of those staff within the year had bought SBL's.
It also transpired that my dealer was of the same opinion as me. I didn't even know it until years later.
I think basically, we're on the same wavelength and generally, if my dealer says "you'll like XYZ" I can be 99.9% sure I will!

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by Emil F
[I]Sorry but I have absolutely no idea if it was a Grahams and I'm not about to dismantle the kit to look for any labels etc![I]

That's important. If your dealer was using the Grahams hydra with the old naim power cords - 0,75mm2, then the demo was not done correctly. Does your dealer know that the new naim boxes use 1,0mm2 power cords?

Maybe the 3 x 250 will win this demo also. I think that one important aim of this forum is to provide us with the right information in order to get the best from our systems. And I believe that some of us have better knowledge than some of the dealers.

Emil
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by JeremyB
quote:
The question is, why would a dealer prefer the older amps. Perhaps because they have less resolution they are easier to set up? Perhaps the dealer will make more money on selling the older components?
OR THE DEALER IS TELLING IT AS IT IS


Which you will surely agree is at a minimum:
satisfied customers x $$$ spent = revenue = cost + margin
All assuming the dealer is running a business.
Posted on: 21 December 2003 by Alex S.
Right Emil, and after the mains leads we can blame the relative shine on the case fuses?
Posted on: 22 December 2003 by ken c
it should be easy to tell whether one has grahams hydra or not. it is a single cable (which carries the mains plug) which is then joined to as many IEC cables as you have equipment to power (to a max fan-out of, dunno, 10 or so??). the joint is important, and last time i dismantled my grahams one, i noticed that it was soldered OK at the joint -- but the way the joint was covered in this heat resistant material made the whole thing look very robust and SAFE. these days i am using an old "stands unique" multiway plug --same thing as the maplins job. it has its advantages...

enjoy

ken
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by Brendan Price
Blythe,
the only comparison that I can make (which might be unfair) is with my 3 x olive Nap250's / NBL's against my dealer's Nap 250 mk 2 / Allaes on Fraim. My system has a bite, fullness and razor sharp sound which I like , whereas the dealers was just ho hum , and I thought was not timing right. As I said before, it's possible that it hasn't had time to properly settle in , but you'd think that the dealer would take this into account before they invite customers in for an appraisal. I'm beginning to think that I like timing above most , which makes me wonder how active olive 250's with supercap would compare in the timing department against a Nap 300. But after hearing the demo , I think it's better to stick with the olive 250's. Which means that I will probably buy a supercap. Thanks also to ken c.
A demo which I haven't done yet is to hear my system on Fraim. I'm considering getting some Mana , taking it to the dealers and hearing the difference for myself.
I suppose the gripe that I have is that the dealer is keen to sell anything, and I hear that the Nap 500 is the bee's knees (and there's little chance that I'll be able to hear it for myself) , but anything below that and the boundaries get blurred between what is best value with olive and black. That's why I like hearing what people have to say on this forum.

Brendan
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
_with a hydra supllying all the Naim kit._

Was it a Grahams hydra?

Regards.

Emil

No, it was one made by my dealer using 1mm cable apparently.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
[I]Sorry but I have absolutely no idea if it was a Grahams and I'm not about to dismantle the kit to look for any labels etc![I]

That's important. If your dealer was using the Grahams hydra with the old naim power cords - 0,75mm2, then the demo was not done correctly. Does your dealer know that the new naim boxes use 1,0mm2 power cords?

Maybe the 3 x 250 will win this demo also. I think that one important aim of this forum is to provide us with the right information in order to get the best from our systems. And I believe that some of us have better knowledge than some of the dealers.

Emil

As posted in my last(?) message, it was made by my delear using 1mm2 cable, to the same kind of standard as a Grahams one.
Don't forget that both systems I demoed were tested using the same mains, so any "bad mains effect" would have been in both systems.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 23 December 2003 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by Brendan Price:
Blythe,
the only comparison that I can make (which might be unfair) is with my 3 x olive Nap250's / NBL's against my dealer's Nap 250 mk 2 / Allaes on Fraim.
(edited)
A demo which I haven't done yet is to hear my system on Fraim. I'm considering getting some Mana , taking it to the dealers and hearing the difference for myself.
Brendan


I think, to be honest, I too would be disapointed in the Allae system with a new 250 compared to NBL's active with 3*Olive 250's.
Yes, I think the comparison is a little unfair.

If you're going to demo Mana Vs Fraim Vs other stands or No stands - make sure you do it blind.
Trust your ears and if you really can't tell any difference, or the difference isn't worth paying for, don't be afraid to admit it to yourself. Also don't be afraid to tell your dealer what you think. MUST be a blind test though!
If the difference is remarkable with one stand in particular, go with it.
If you struggle to hear any difference compared to what you've already got. Stick with what you've already got.
You might just save yourself a boat load of money!

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 25 December 2003 by Emil F
As posted in my last(?) message, it was made by my delear using 1mm2 cable, to the same kind of standard as a Grahams one.

In this case I have to admit that your dealer is very good!

Merry Christmas!

Emil
Posted on: 01 January 2004 by craig sidwell
quote:
Originally posted by Brendan Price:
Thank you so much Blythe!
I have NBL's driven by active olive 250's. I have been waiting for a post like this for some time. I have heard the latest black series 250 going through Allaes (Nac 282, CDX2), and I was not impressed at all. It's possible that it hasn't been run in though. There's little chance of me actually doing similar comparisons here in Australia. I'm thinking now that the way for me to go is to upgrade the Nac82 to a 52 or 252. By the way , what supports were you using? Also , have you compared using the snaxo 3-6 with hicap vs. supercap?

Brendan
Brendan If you would like advice on these Naim comparisons please email me on:sidcraigwell@hotmail.com
Regards
Craig