Dynavector v. Naim

Patchwork systems and their defence.

I'd have put myself in the category of being 'sheepish' not so long ago.

The reason both sides can be strongly defensive of their positions is that both sides have a similar passion, based on their own experiences. It's not therefore suprising, particularly on a Naim forum, where by definition one is likely to find more inhabitants one side of the fence than the other, that those on the less populated side have to do more work to be heard

One of the biggest advantages to this forum has been meeting a wide variety of people, with widely differing systems, some of which I've been priveleged to experience as they have developed further into the 'patchwork' arena.

It was a real eye-opener (or should that be ear-opener) for me, those non-Naim bits didn't sound anywhere near as bad as the Naim defence would have it, some even sounded better (to me) at similar price points.

As someone whose system lies at the lower levels of expenditure, the fact that there was other equipment out there that may offer better value for my limited money is an appealing one, worthy of further investigation.

It's not easy either, often requiring much greater efforts to get suitable dems, match equipment etc.

Caution is necessary though, costs have to be 'whole-life' ones and Naim's record of superb customer service, solid resale and a ready market, with good potential for long term support may sway my judgement in that direction.

The difference is I am prepared to be open minded, and trust my own judgement, not that of others. It has nothing to do with being radical, just simply one of common sense, I want the biggest bang, for the smallest buck.

Loyalty only comes when the product itself earns it; so far Naim aren't doing too bad!

The Densen CDP will definitely be on my CD5 replacement dem list though

Andy.

Re Toon's comment about pre-ordering a 552/500:

Based on Naim's astonishing success and their ability to make products in a hierarchy where the next component up is a MAJOR step forward over the other one, every time, seems to me to be a VERY smart move to get in quick. Not "insanity" at all.

Kudos to Naim Audio for creating products that are every bit as good as they say they are, thus inspiring unprecedented consumer confidence.

Joe90

Rico,

The only problem with your argument (apart from the fact that its complete nonsense, obviously) is that Naim are themselves a niche product in the grand scheme of things.

Knowing how good Naim are, how wonderful their service, reliability, it was with real trepidation that I cobbled together a non-sistem just to be different. You only get one chance to sell all your expensive Naim gear. What I'm left with is worth relatively little but I'm very pleased with the sound per pound and I guess that's all that matters. Also, DV is reliable and there is an obvious upgrade path should I choose to follow it.

Alex

Patchwork systems, eh? Hmmmm... well, I suppose I fit into that category, but without getting into the finer details of particular components, I don't subscribe to the 'underground' idea at all. I think I speak for all of us 'patchwork' folks in suggesting that we bought what we did because at the time the components we bought were the ones which were 'right' for us - sonically, musically, financially or opportunistically.

In fairness, there aren't that many high-end brands who can truly boast a complete source->speaker lineup (including cables) so sometimes compromises must be made. The significant difference is that where no complete 'system' approach exists, the importance of audition and open-mindedness is even more important.

Not to knock Naim - they do good products at a fair price which perform well - but they are not the only option, and (for example) Dv, Linn, Meridian, etc., all offer alternatives, just slightly different paths to (hopefully) the same end goal.

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Thanks, Alex - I didn't realise I had made an argument, per se.

What?! You mean Naim Audio doesn't have the broadest market appeal? They're a niche-market item after all? Damn it - I've been fooled all along - I'm off to the pawn shop now!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Odd. There are a bunch of people around the world who will happily order a car before its been released.... oh, pay a deposit even. Ferrari fans, Porsche fans, even Holden fans (I'm sure nobody would pre-order a Ford would they?

Still, perhaps most of these people aren't hobbyists - they just know what they like and get on with driving it. It may be that they derive little pleasure in testing out everyone else's product in order to satisfy themselves that they are indeed correct in their selection of a product that suits their intended use and tastes, and the last few they've bought have satisfied. 'Wonder if there's been any studies done on this kind of buyer profile?

I'm sure that for every driver that's ordered the new Porsche there are a hundred Focus (or Lexus) drivers pointing out just how crazy the Porsche driver who just pre-paid for the new model due 2005 is.

Whilst I won't be off to pre-order the next awesome product from Naim due out 2004, I do understand this behaviour. I guess they can be happy that there's always someone else to buy the product should they not be absolutely satisfied with it, and possibly have the means to absorb a "lemon". Bear in mind that the manufacturer will be working very hard to retain this buyer by not producing "lemons". There's a kind of synergy in that, don't you think?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Yeah, well that is equally dumb. Actually no, it is even dumber, since the type of cars that people go to the trouble to pre-order usually cost considerably more than most Hifi equipment.

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John it appears you have missed my point entirely! To expand further, I am sure these folks find the notion of listening to every available option or permutation rather strange. Or perhaps, dumb. A waste of time and effort, even.

So to conclude, I see the actions of folk who know what they like and will pre-order something quite rational. I am not in this category myself, but fully understand their actions and points of view. Many here are in fact judging this as 'looney tunes' behaviour - are you all so entrenched in 'HiFi-as-hobbyist pursuit' as to miss that it can just be another commodity for others? Like buying a refrigerator, car, or VCR? Some folks appreciate good things in life, but just hate shopping!

Try examimining wine releases - people will pay tons for something they'll not even get to enjoy for years to come - on the strength of performance in previous years. Quite sensible, really.

Oh dammit, I think I'll go order a 252 - I've not heard one yet but what the hell, I hate shopping these days.

regardez

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico,

Okay, I'll excuse the clichéd car analogies but there is a difference. If you buy the latest Ferarri or Lafitte they are immediately worth more than you paid for them. The NAP 500 isn't. Nonetheless, I agree with you, it was financial constraints that made me look elsewhere. Had money been no object I would have just bought the 500/552. Audition anything else, God forbid; audition the Naims, why bother, they take 6 months to run-in anyway.

Alex

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:


If you don't think that spending in excess of £20k on Hi-fi equipment you've _never even heard_ isn't extremely stupid

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Hey John, I would say it's stupid even if you have heard it..

John--

You said "Yeah, well that is equally dumb. Actually no, it is even dumber..." Surely you would accept that you are making a value judgment here? And that while it might be perfectly valid for you, others will make different value judgments?

While I generally wouldn't buy something that expensive unheard, I know others who would because they have both the resources to do so and because they know that Naim (in this case) will take care of them if they're unhappy.

And finally--on Joe90's comment about someone preferring something just because it is different--come on, he's absolutely right. People do that all the time.

Best,

Bob

Thanks, Bob - pleased someone else could identify the judgemental position displayed by many here. I was starting to feel like th eodd one out, or at least lonesome in this thread.

John - I do clearly understand your point, I just don't agree with it. You have time in your life and clearly derive pleasure from exploring the minutae of permutations. There are many out there who don't.

As for Marco's comment - would you respect an F1 driver's opinion on a car, or a wine master's opinion on a wine? Or discredit it because the person in question hadn't slummed it like the rest of the herd here (that is, the herd can't get past the "I am the expert, I must listen to it all and decide" mentality) for credibility? You might even insist that Michael Schumacher drive the Ford Focus before he can comment on next season's F1 chassis. Or claim bias on the grounds that he wouldn't be seen dead driving a Mazda. What has this to do with his ability to express an opinion or preference for a vehicle? Nothing.

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You're [sic] above comments read as nothing other than an affirmation of your own hi-fi purchasing values, and are stereotypical of the sheep-like behaviour you're being accused of.

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Nice try, but you are wrong. I've not bought any kit for quite some time - all the kit I've bought, I've auditioned. I have merely raised the idea that there are plenty of other folks who will not take your "listen to it all and then discuss on the interenet ad nauseum" approach - by choice! let's leave the straw men on the table, please. PS - enough with the sheep jokes - people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Folks, I put to you all a radical approach. Assume you have no system. You have a reasonable sum of money in pocket with which to purchase a system (sorry, sistem) - for arguments sake, £15,000. Evaluate dealers, find one you like and trust, and want to do business with. Approach the selected dealer for assistance in building sistem - you want him to provide you with advice, expertise, installation and sales services - a whole package. Select and buy sistem. Anything you're not satisfied with, let dealer sort it out as part of the "reasonable sum of money" contract you've made. Simple really! No need to schlep around all those grotty newstands reading hifi comics, weigh up countless opinions and sales pitches of competing dealers, second-guessing folks who truely are experts in their field. You'd still have the same control - only now you have upgraded yourself to "customer" from "hobbyist". Lost your "hifi gold star" badge though. And the largest bonus by far is more free time to make millions on the stockmarket to order that next porsche or case of claret, help the poor and needy, or enter local politics/run for bishop. Think of all the great things you could acheive in your life with the time freed up by shedding that nerdy anorak! Awesomely liberating idea, isn't it?

I would respectfully raise for the benefit of many of the contributors to this thread that the idea of an "expert" being someone who visits every hifi show and has a lifetime subscription to [insert fave hifi comic** here], be scrutinised and re-examined.

** thanks and kudos to Mr T. Fox for coining this term.

Come one guys, is my alternate viewpoint really that challenging to your hifi beliefs that you repeat the "madness" mantra? Oh yeah, many of you called the aforesaid Mr t. Fox mad when he consigned all of his expensive system to the dumpster than is ebay, and found happiness via another musical route. Was it simply because his route to musical nirvana differed radically from your own? I should point out again that I haven't entered into the Dynavector vs Naim or brand X argument - I've not had the opportunity to assess DV.

The oddest thing is that there really are loads of people who take the alternate approach - buy a musical entertainment system out of want for something to play music in the home, not for want of something to agonise for hours over en-route to listening to music. They will read this foum out of curiosity and shake thier heads in amazement at your most vociferous arguements and insistance that folks making a normal everyday purchasing decision are "barking mad".

When you last purchased a refigerator, did you approach the local whiteware suppliers, have in-store demos of said goods, then arrange for a couple from competing stores delivered to your house for a weekend A/B demo before making your purchase decision? Could it be that refrigeration is not your hobby? Or that the Comet/Curry's manager would have you removed from the store as a nutter at the suggestion of this approach.

Please belieive me, I am smiling as I type this. I do understand most of you here have the courage of your convictions! Have you considered a different time-sink in your lives?

regards

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I don't see your problem.

You can visit a dealer and dem equipment until the cows come home. That applies to racks, black boxes and speakers.

Most companies allow that.

I tend to go for Naim as an automatic choice, because I don't have the time to dem (my fault entirely) and above all I enjoy the Naim sound.

How we buy the kit is down to each of us.

Anyway...at your age, you should be in a pub chatting up women, not talking to a bunch of middle aged nerds.

Regards

Mick

If some one is happy shelling out twenty grand on a piece of kit that he has never heard....so what.

If he is happy, then fine.

Some guys like to dem and dem before buying and some just prefer to buy into a sound they know and trust. They are not "nuts", they just have a different acquisitional style.

There is no need for you to get wound up.

Regards

Mick

When you get older, you may become what the marketing men refer to as "cash rich and time poor".

In other words, some guys are serious about music but do not have the time to dem. If they like the sound of a particular make, then there is nothing wrong in them ordering kit by picking up the phone.

Why even criticise them or call them nuts.

Regards

Mick

John--

You wrote "So tell me, if they are unhappy: Would that extend to a complete unconditional full refund, if the customer discovered that shortly afterwards, they thought a competitors product delivered a superior overall performance?"

The answer with respect to Naim is yes. The dealers are contractually obligated to do exactly that. This of course puts the onus on dealers to make sure the customer really does like what they bought--hence the reason Naim dealers allow for in-home dems.

And I think that someone can be serious about their music and their hifi even if they order something like the 552, 500, or even a Nait 5 without listening to it first. I think to claim otherwise is simply imposing one's own value system on someone else.

I should note that I wouldn't lay down 22 large on a 552 before hearing it. However, for those who have, they have made what is to them a perfectly reasonable decision.

Best,

Bob

But I have ordered Jaguar cars by picking up the phone....do you think I am nuts. I never once regretted it, so that system suited me.

I have also ordered Naim by picking up the phone, I don't consider myself nuts.

The point I am making is that it is only a different way of acquiring goods.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
Generally speaking, a person doesn't sit by their fridge checking up on the refrigerated status of their food every hour. [...] A Hi-fi system is something with which you (hopefully) completely absorb yourself.

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Clearly you haven't visited Venezuala for a while, John. But seriously, is there a middle position in this? I have two fridges and I have two sistems, but I am very happy I don't 'completely absorb myself in my system' as you put it. I didn&rsquot buy it in five minutes (or in a single day), but frankly I haven't given the technicalities one minute's thought for months now.

Why the hell would I absorb myself in a hifi sistem? I just put a cd in and enjoy the music. I have to admit, to some degree it is just like a fridge, in that it's just a way to (mechanically) reproduce music. It's not real music. I'm afraid some people rather like that: it will always be the same, every time again. That's reassuring. But it's not real. When you're sitting in a concert hall, you know what real music sounds like. Including little mistakes.

That doesn't mean I don't like my hifi fridge (you don't get to hear Horowitz in the Concertgebouw these days), but perhaps it precludes this notion of complete absorption in cables and, frankly, posting that often and at such length that it's hard to believe you're really listening to anything but the sound of your own voice, John. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but, really, if you were a piece of Hifi, I'd say you're a tad shrill on the ears. Maybe you need a different set of cables?

Herman

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But just don't try and convince me -- as people on this thread are -- that they are in any way serious about their music or Hi-fi, since they're obviously not.

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Hi John

With all due respect you're just repeating a story you've made up in your own head. You've decided that people who exhibit "this" type of behaviour (ie buy a 552 without hearing it) can't be "serious about music".

I'm not going to try to convince you that you are wrong, because you are not, your opinion is completely valid. It's just that you can't/won't/don't accept that someone could behave alternatively to you but still be "seriously into music".

Jay

Yeah...well it seemed like a good idea at the time.

We are never going to agree on this.

Regards

Mick

The definition of insanity.

Repeating the same thing over and over expecting there to be a different outcome each time.

Don't what made me think of that.

Enjoy Jay

Yeah...well it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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It's goes to the heart of while I feel this forum quite often doesn't give an even _remotely_ balanced perspective of all the Hi-fi equipment out there.

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Pot, kettle, black

Yeah...well it seemed like a good idea at the time.

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
it wasn't always this way here, in the past... and that because of that, it was therefore considerably _more_ than just a forum for Naim users. And all the better for it. Shame that seems to have faded somewhat, lately.

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Contrary to what you're saying, this conflation of the audio nut willing to go the extra mile and the music lover as well as your I'll go on and on and on until I get total agreement style of posting is so much reminiscent of the only past you can be aware of (considering your age as a member), that one is wondering if it's a Wales thing.

Don't people have anything to do out there but act like hifi messiahs? Could you possibly at some future point accept that this forum is not a theatre for your abiding need to persuade people of your points of view? Or, alternatively, when are you going to go into M*n*?

Herman

Alan

I think the point we are trying to make to John is that we do not criticise his method of buying hifi, so why does he feel the need to adopt a vituperative stance on how some other chaps buy theirs. There is no need to describe them as nuts etc.

If some one feels the need to take 6 months to select equipment, then fine, so why slag off someone who takes 5 minutes.

We all have differing approaches.

Regards

Mick

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but I feel a time has come for me to leave, or at least reduce my function to one of mere "spying" occasionally. Obviously I upset the "party", and am probably regarded as a nuisance nowadays. That's fine; I don't bear grudges.

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Don't go, John. In some ways perhaps you've revealed the true nature of the Emperor's New Clothes, and more power to your elbow for risking the wrath of the faithful in speaking out.

However, the fact that this forum is pro-Naim to such an extent shouldn't come as any surprise given its reason for being. I don't own much Naim - a Nait-2, an Aro and possibly soon I will own an Armageddon - and I still feel like an intruder here, but it remains one of the best places to talk music and hifi, which I am proud to admit are both interconnected passions for me. So I put up with the "blind faith" thing - after all, it is a serious commitment to spend thousands on hifi gear of any type, so I think it's a good thing that the majority seem to be happy, or have convinced themselves that they are happy.

However, we need balance, and you provide some of that balanced content...

John (who also thinks that buying witout audition is generally a bad thing but admits to not auditioning his new fridgefreezer. However, I did check out a lot of comparable FFs before purchasing, and I now feel happy I made a good choice. Is that so different to doing the same thing with hifi?)

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I guess we should have agreed more often.

If you go to this forum that desperate to turn people on to your thing you're bound to be disappointed after a while.

This happens all the time. John just put more effort into it.

I've occasionally wondered about a guy this young who apparently has nothing to do but post on hifi, and (of course) listen his music for a 100% all day. But that's just me.

So remind me, what was this thread about?

Herman