Dynavector v. Naim

John,

You're mixing up things.

1 You were leaving (weren't you?) because there were people who contrary to your wishes purchased Naim equipment without first listening to every possible alternative.

2 My not taking you as seriously as you do is not a 'personal insult'. It's just inevitable.

Herman

All,
I think the debate is great and am enjoying it, but is there anyone else out there with other views on DV?

Noel.

Sorry to be so negative John but if you want to be taken seriously then throwing a sulk and storming off with your ball because we won't let you play centre forward is exactly why some people refer to you as being young. Huffs are a really childish act.

Yours in Music

Syd

Have I just been Mark Anthony'd ?

John said

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You know as well as I do that deciding between fridges is not in anyway like choosing between Hi-fi equipment.

Generally speaking, a person doesn't sit by their fridge checking up on the refrigerated status of their food every hour. They don't get the same kind of emotional/intellectual/spiritual connection from a fridge that they do from their Hi-fi.

A Hi-fi system is something with which you (hopefully) completely absorb yourself. It is something you spend many many hours experiencing, listening to music, and as such, its qualitative performance is of a completely different order of importance compared to the performance to a fridge.

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John, you attempt to refute the relationship between purchasing whiteware and hifi and then note that the relationship is not there because one does not form an emmotional connection with one's refrigerator. For many the hifi is the kit that allows them to listen to, enjoy, and connect with The Music - the mere suggestion that they form an emmotional bond with this would likely make most rational people laugh. As such, the purchasee may be approached in largely the same way as purchasing whiteware - is this fact so hard for you to accept? It is a purchase of household equipment - not a prelude to a marriage of soul, electrons, and cable. I guess that if in fact you did wind up checking the state of the food in your fridge you would have to admit to making a poor purchsing decision!*** I certainly hope you need not check on the reliabilty or state of any of your hifi on an hourly basis - that would indeed be a huge commitment!

Marco said:

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Rico cites the way one normally purchases white goods as the defence for those who also apply this principle to buy hi-fi equipment, he has a point; but I find it ludicrous that any genuine hi-fi enthusiast or music lover would trivialise what would be such an important purchase by not being as thorough as possible: quality and performance are simply too important to risk. As an enthusiast, one simply doesn’t apply the same values to one’s hi-fi equipment as one does to our domestic appliances; that’s a different breed altogether.

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Marco - you appear to have misinterpreted my post. I did not mention or qualfy that one must first be an enthusiast to purchase a hifi - just as one need not be an enthusiast to purchase whiteware. You have now woven this into your response - I am sure you did not intend to mislead others, and I have pointed this out for your enlightenment.

Besides, why must one wear a badge such as "Hi! I'm an enthusiast/anorak" to purchase anything?

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In my experience, the type of people Rico refers to who would buy hi-fi equipment in such a way are, in general, what could loosely be described as the ‘Bang & Olufsen crowd’; those seeking maximum perceived sophistication for minimal effort, in fact Linn cater for their sort these days in places like Harrods for example.

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Can't say too many of these folks would be buying Naim at this stage of the game - looks good, sounds great, but needs a little more effort (both to purchase and to sell), so doesn't meet all of your qualifying criteria! 'Can't hang it on the wall, either. Still, I'm sure that Naim and their retailers welcome 'one and all' interested in buying their fine product, regardless of the aquisition approach they take!

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So yes Rico, these people exist, in fact they represent the majority of the population, but let there be no mistake: they are not genuine enthusiasts and, arguably, not genuine music lovers either. So let’s acknowledge their existence and their relevance in the context of the discussion, but I don’t believe such individuals are representative of most people on this forum; therefore alluding to this somewhat illogical behaviour is of little significance.

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Marco - is anyone who buys the product not The Customer? Would any marketing manager the world over grade their customers by your proposed valuing scheme? I think not - they'd send their company broke in no time. In fact I put it to you that your grading of customers based on display of their "Hi! I'm an enthusiast/anorak" badge is unlikely to win you a large proportion of customers with money to spend, and has little relevance to business other than to act as a managerial time sink.

Additionally, I question the relevance of your point regarding the proportion of forum contributors aquiring systems in this manner. I was not suggesting that any great number of contributors follow this path - you may well find that many of the lurkers or occasional readers that drop by here do acquire products in a very different manner to the one you espouse. I am sure you can accept this, and that they will enjoy their acquisitions no less than (say) you or even John do.

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I do believe, however, those here emulating the behaviour you refer to cannot call themselves genuine enthusiasts either.

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You've repeated that throughout your post. Strangely, I know people with CDSIII's already. A number of these did not have the opportunity to listen first, or chose not to. Your suggestion that they are not "genuine enthusiasts or true music lovers" is unlikely to illicit a response - they're unlikely to care of your opinion, or display any concern for the apparrent zone from which such opinions eminate. They are in fact far to busy enjoying the music, pure and simple.

So in closing, I would raise that your approach to prostating yourself on the martyr's stage of hifi enthusiast/demo feind/expert, in order to enjoy music in your home is of "little significance" in relation to purchasing Naim or any other brand.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

*** as an aside, many years ago there was a local hit called "The Bridge". Soon some wag recorded a spoof called "The Fridge".... "I keep my fooood.... in the fridge". Just sprung to mind - does anyone have a copy?

Regarding all of the above. WHO CARES! I just dropped in to see if joe90 had insulted anyone and found 4 more pages of....

Everyone go listen to some of their most loved and spritually uplifting music and tell me how important all this is. Alternatively, go to the padded cell - not the one on this site. Me, I'm going to go listen to the Scriabin 8th Sonata.

Or, try "oven racking". Take an oven rack, tie shoelaces to either end, make loops on the other ends of the shoe laces and put your little fingers in the loops and your index or little fingers in your ears. You should now have the oven rack hanging from your fingers which are placed in your ears. Now bang the oven rack. Farrrr Outttt! Easily a better use of one's time.

Garth

Sorry Garth I don't have time for these pursuits - I need more quality time with my fridge.

My definition is someone with a proper Turntable sitting on Hutter.

Alex

PS I like the feel of Hutter.

In my opinion, a 'serious' music lover is someone who values his or her recordings so much that hearing them in all their glory is the desired aim. That means, not a tainted imitation of how they should sound, but as 'real' and believable as the recording will allow...
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That's a ridiculous definition of a music lover. For instance it doesn't include someone with a midi system and a piano which they play every day, or someone who goes to concerts four times a week.

It's can be perfectly rational to say I want a nice stereo, go to a nice hi-fi shop, and say put together a nice stereo for me, and not fret over it. The factors are your tolerance for fretting over such things, how much you see your stereo as an extension of self, how much money and time you have. If you go to Grahams and end up with top of the line Naim and don't like it, they will take it back.

Now, about those 500s on the used market. That was part of the popping of the equity bubble--high dollar kit of all stripes hit the market at attractive prices in the US and UK around then. You can't really say what this meant unless you interview all the sellers.

--Eric

Marco--

You know what the key word in your definition of music lover is?

"In MY opinion..."

Exactly right.

Rico--Spot on earlier!

Best,

Bob

I'll give a nod to Tom's post and add that I've known some skilled, recorded musicians whose systems were old $199 Sony rack systems and bookshelf units. A good friend is a student of guitar and his PC serves as his system. Another, a turntablist who used to tour Europe, listens through his elaborate DJ setup (and throws a hell of a party as a result). Obviously in each case their love of music is "serious" and significant in their lives. Love of music simply doesn't equal money or time spent in assembling a system. And believing it does would make you an an ignorant, elitist dolt.

Senor Toon

I am now going to reveal the conspiracy within the whole of the Naim forum outside of Wales - we only post to get you to post lots back.

I think I still can claim the most efficient result - remember " Post less, say more? " That took two weeks Private Topic discussion by 2465 Forum members before we arrived at that distillation and boy, ( bach? ) it hit the spot. "Pontifex Minimus" came in after only 8 days discussion

BTW, I bought my 135s, 82, Sondek, Lingo and Ekos without a dem. Listened to the Akiva, though...

Typical trusting oaf, I know. But no regrets for even a nanosecond.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy

Not to beat a dead horse into the ground but...
on the topic of being a music lover apparently milt jackson only has a ghetto blaster.

Marco asked

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"I've described my interpretation of a 'serious' music lover....... So what's your definition, Rico?"

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Marco, thats a good question you raise. I certainly understand that you think it relevant - it's just there are few here that understand it's relevance (the Serious Music Lover as a qualification for Naim ownership). I'll try for your benefit.

I try not to hang tags on people such as "serious porsche enthusiast" (although I have a few mates who enjoy these vehicles and are (very)enthusiastic about them, they are friends first, and successful second allowing such pursiuits) or "major neurotics" (someone's personality or mental state shouldn't be an overriding tag)... as such, someone who just enjoys music is enough of a tag if you must see one used. If they enjoy it enough to use Naim as a conduit to that then fine!

I've often mentioned to people as part explaination for my choice of kit (How come you've spent so much on a hifi?") is that "I'm not a musician - this kit makes it easier for me to follow the stuff I hear and feel when I'm at a live performance". Rtaher than any underlying mystery of seriousness. I guess what I'm trying to explain is that seriousness really doesn't enter into it!

Some folks can follow the music without all this great kit we use, or perhaps their brain fills in the missing bits of information, or perhaps they just don't care - but what they choose to enjoy music on has nothing to do with a love of music.

The non-ownership of Naim kit could not preclude membership of your "serious music lover" stable, or many of todays successful artists would not qualify as (serious) music lovers!

In conclusion, I see no reason to define a "serious music lover" .

The "enthusiast" tag may be more easily defined and deployed. Someone more interested in attempting to find the holy grail, a match made beyond the mix-and-matches raised by hifi mags, well beyond the sane suggestion of "mere" sales droids, and well apart from any manufacturer's intended use. Will listen at length to any peice of kit, or system, in an attempt to expand thier encyclopediac knowledge of HiFi and accessories, not to mention tuning. I wouldn't feel so bad about using this tag - the enthusiast normally wouldn't mind wearing it!

As I alluded before, I know folks with some great systems who wouldn't describe themselves as, nor easily wear the tag "enthusiast (s)". These folks really enjoy their music, though! I suspect they'd squirm uncomfortably with a "serious music lover" tag also. If you can't guess why, just keep wearing yours.

I was once an enthusiast, now I'm cured.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Rico:
Thats a good question you raise. I certainly understand that you think it relevant - it's just there are few here that understand it's relevance (the Serious Music Lover as a qualification for Naim ownership). I'll try for your benefit.

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Rico, life down under must be terribly dull at the moment. I really can't think why you're attempting again and again to resuscitate this theoretical non-issue, which was only raised as the last defense by a couple of guys who have never ever over time even remotely posted about music (which they don't, obviously, because they are serious music lovers). Folks like Tom and Eric have dealt with this issue on a reality basis. What you're doing is just arguing for the sake of arguing, and we all know where that ends with some of these participants. Also, as Stallion mentioned, the debate really has moved to the "fresh air" of the M*n* Forum.

Herman

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Rico, life down under must be terribly dull at the moment.

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Herm - it is winter down here, and the All Blacks have resorted to beating Wales for validation. I know it's a poor excuse, but is at least some explaination.

Sorry.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I refuse to let this thread die!!!!!

I had bought my 90th CD when at uni and I had a Sanyo pop-top portable CD/Tape/radio. Do I qualify as a music lover?
I now have some tasty equipment do do a real good job of the music.
Never would want to talk about it on a website though. Far too subjective to argue with someone about music.

Hifi is a different story, as so many people have such a hard time making it click.

I don't actually go out of my way to insult people, I certainly never attack anyone directly but I'm a total Naimophile. Everything they do works for me and my stereo plays music a whole heck of a lot better than all those other brands cause EVERYTIME I listen it makes me very, very happy that I love music, and I never complain about it (really) and I never get 'upgradeitis' until it's for a really decent leap forward.

For keeping me off the hifi treadmill I thank the guy who demo'd me Naim Audio.

Joe90

Every now and then I check this old post o'mine to see how it's doing.

Wow-- so much info about Naim and Dynavector it's overwhelming. Really-- all the nuances about why choose one over the other have been hashed out.

Now lets change the topic, shall we? How bout we talk about something OTHER than Dynavector v. Naim? C'mon-- it's time.

I should have posted something along the lines of "The therapeutic tangentialities of Naim v. Dynavector and the meaning of preference in musical immersion: innuendo or inflection?"

But then I'd have gotten like 2 responses.