How did the Earth become so round
Posted by: silklee on 10 November 2002
I just dont get it.
Seems to me like Naim and Linn etc had got a head start against the Round Earth hifi, coupled with the fact that most of the round earth eqt cant seems to play a tune enjoyably (ok, i am biasd), so why does it seem to me that the hifi industry is dominated by Round Earthers?
Are we a dying breed?
Seems to me like Naim and Linn etc had got a head start against the Round Earth hifi, coupled with the fact that most of the round earth eqt cant seems to play a tune enjoyably (ok, i am biasd), so why does it seem to me that the hifi industry is dominated by Round Earthers?
Are we a dying breed?
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Laurie Saunders
I firmly believe that the most important criterion for music is SEPERATION...i.e when a single "sound" becomes obvioulsly two or more. That is easy to say, but necessary prerequisites are dynamic range, dynamics, speed, leading edge detail etc. The traditional Naim sound provides most of these. The trick is to retain these whilst adding soundstage as well..... to take you even closer to the ideal...the so called "alternative" paths are not really alternatives...merely some of the different,though all equally desirable ingredients that go towards making the music CONVINCING and BELIEVABLE.
Regards
Laurie Saunders
Regards
Laurie Saunders
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bob atherton
I recently bought a CD of Jefferson Aeroplane's Surrealistic Pillow. The first half of the CD is the album in stereo & the second half is the same again in mono. I remember this album well from my school days but never got around to buying it.
When I first span the disc I was seriously disappointed with the music, just didn't gel & sounded way overproduced. Then the mono album came on & the music was all there sounding very much as I remembered it. I believe that there were two different engineers working on the digital transfer so this may not prove
anything at all.....
The mono mix sounds much more real & in the room than the stereo. I can also follow the lyrics & the tune better on the mono mix. Makes you wonder....
Bob
When I first span the disc I was seriously disappointed with the music, just didn't gel & sounded way overproduced. Then the mono album came on & the music was all there sounding very much as I remembered it. I believe that there were two different engineers working on the digital transfer so this may not prove
anything at all.....
The mono mix sounds much more real & in the room than the stereo. I can also follow the lyrics & the tune better on the mono mix. Makes you wonder....
Bob
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by --duncan--
Frank said : 'I want to hear and visualise the singers as they move around the stage (hence my belief tha all opera will be dvd based one day)'.
An alternative point of view was proposed by Anthony Sher on Desert Island Discs. He chose several operas in his selection but remarked that he hated watching live performances because the acting was so bad!
duncan
An alternative point of view was proposed by Anthony Sher on Desert Island Discs. He chose several operas in his selection but remarked that he hated watching live performances because the acting was so bad!
duncan
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by tre2fly
This on-going round/flat-earth preference thing seems senseless. Music reproduction, as in politics where we often envision similar comforts and ideals, but differ on how to get there, we look musically for what most engages our own sense of beauty and or realism. It cannot be defined spatially.
Personally, I listen to a lot of show and concert music, and find “imaging” one of the most titillating recreations of being-there excitement. For instance, when I saw La Cage Aux Folles on stage, I had a close seat, and loved the forward extension of stage where dancers paraded and performed in front of the orchestra, AND right in front of me. The orchestra pit, in subdued contrast, was a sort of magical, out-of-sight place where “hidden” players made real-life MUSIC.
Having said that, my system is very “round” AND possibly the most musical I’ve heard. I love playing La Cage, and recreating those dancing, clicking heals in my face, while the drummer pounding skins, echoes from behind and below.
[This message was edited by tre2fly on FRIDAY 15 November 2002 at 04:05.]
Personally, I listen to a lot of show and concert music, and find “imaging” one of the most titillating recreations of being-there excitement. For instance, when I saw La Cage Aux Folles on stage, I had a close seat, and loved the forward extension of stage where dancers paraded and performed in front of the orchestra, AND right in front of me. The orchestra pit, in subdued contrast, was a sort of magical, out-of-sight place where “hidden” players made real-life MUSIC.
Having said that, my system is very “round” AND possibly the most musical I’ve heard. I love playing La Cage, and recreating those dancing, clicking heals in my face, while the drummer pounding skins, echoes from behind and below.
[This message was edited by tre2fly on FRIDAY 15 November 2002 at 04:05.]
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by JohanR
Quote:
"I was naively sceptical that mono records could be better than modern stereo ones - until i heard a few that were."
Yes. Lets for a moment assume by "better" here we mean that the recording gives an impression of real people playing in a real room and that we can differentiate better what the musicians is playing. I think the clue to this is THAT IT IS MONO. With stereo its very easy for the engineer to pan the musicians left and right between the speakers. With mono he does not have this option and must differentiate the musicians in some other, and more clever way. In fact, this not something I have come up with, instead I read it many years ago in an interview with a sound engineer that had been involved with booth mono and stereo.
Quote:
"Fascinating. I find it difficult to understand how a recording which has less information can sound better than one with more (assuming that information is used accordingly, of course)..."
I don't think, at least with vinyl, that there is more information with stereo. There is only one track, even with stero. And if I remember the textbook properly, the vertical modulation (that gives stereo) has higher distorsion.
JohanR
"I was naively sceptical that mono records could be better than modern stereo ones - until i heard a few that were."
Yes. Lets for a moment assume by "better" here we mean that the recording gives an impression of real people playing in a real room and that we can differentiate better what the musicians is playing. I think the clue to this is THAT IT IS MONO. With stereo its very easy for the engineer to pan the musicians left and right between the speakers. With mono he does not have this option and must differentiate the musicians in some other, and more clever way. In fact, this not something I have come up with, instead I read it many years ago in an interview with a sound engineer that had been involved with booth mono and stereo.
Quote:
"Fascinating. I find it difficult to understand how a recording which has less information can sound better than one with more (assuming that information is used accordingly, of course)..."
I don't think, at least with vinyl, that there is more information with stereo. There is only one track, even with stero. And if I remember the textbook properly, the vertical modulation (that gives stereo) has higher distorsion.
JohanR
Posted on: 15 November 2002 by Craig B
How real does one's system sound when one is listening to it from another room in the house?
Does it sound like there are real live breathing musicians playing real instruments together and in time in the lounge?
Flat or round, multi or mono, who gives a shit as long as one can enjoy, on demand, a reasonable facsimile of the original musical event in their home?
On the other hand, if one does prefer to clamp their head in a vise in front of their round earth set-up such that they can more accurately place the sound of the second violinist farting into their chair then, by all means, enjoy yourself. Having been there, I pity them their obsession as they are sadly missing the big picture whilst wallowing in the spacial details.
Me thinks some of us need to put away the recordings and get out more. May I suggest a good concert?
Flatuantly yours,
Craig
Does it sound like there are real live breathing musicians playing real instruments together and in time in the lounge?
Flat or round, multi or mono, who gives a shit as long as one can enjoy, on demand, a reasonable facsimile of the original musical event in their home?
On the other hand, if one does prefer to clamp their head in a vise in front of their round earth set-up such that they can more accurately place the sound of the second violinist farting into their chair then, by all means, enjoy yourself. Having been there, I pity them their obsession as they are sadly missing the big picture whilst wallowing in the spacial details.
Me thinks some of us need to put away the recordings and get out more. May I suggest a good concert?
Flatuantly yours,
Craig
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by MarkEJ
quote:
I'll go so far as to say that the best 'imaging' on any record I own is a mono recording of Young Person's Guide to the Orchesta on DECCA I think. The accoustic and the intruments' relation to it is very lifelike, not to mention the dynamics and timbre.
...that would be the Decca "Ace of Clubs" issue, sleeve with a black & white photo and a pale blue bit down one side, and Prokoviev's "Peter & the Wolf" on side B, narrated by David Kossov (Paul Kossov's father)?
If so, I totally agree, even though I haven't heard it for years. I remember listening to that on my parent's Pye Black Box record player, and being completely captivated. Sadly the record is one those that has absented itself somehow...
On tonal accuracy, that's tricky to judge, IMHO. I remember Linn's postulation that "a piano will sound different in different rooms, but will always sound like a piano" -- makes a lot of sense to me. A violin that sounds like a viola is one thing (albeit I suspect hard to achieve in practice) but throw enough badly-applied technology at the recording and your violin could very easily end up sounding like a Fairlight. I have a fairly flash modern recording of the Nutcracker, and frankly the entire work sounds like this. Loads of air, space and imaging, not the slightest hint of human beings doing complex and beatiful things with wood, metal and resin, so IMHO completely pointless.
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by Thomas K
quote:
Anyone seen the demonstration where you clip off the attack part of a note?
Sadly, you often get something to that effect on albums you buy. I recently got Joseph Arthur's "Redemption's Son" on CD, and the first note of the first track only has about half the attack on it. Very annoying and unprofessional.
Thomas
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Cojones to you all ( bar Craig, probably)
If it sounds better to you, it is better.
End of chat.
Mike (incorporating lots of Deutsche lager )
[This message was edited by mike lacey on SUNDAY 17 November 2002 at 22:34.]
If it sounds better to you, it is better.
End of chat.
Mike (incorporating lots of Deutsche lager )
[This message was edited by mike lacey on SUNDAY 17 November 2002 at 22:34.]