Italian Justice
Posted by: Mike-B on 07 December 2009
I am surprised that no one has started a post on the convictions for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The www is full of it but most chat seems to be over US senator Maria Cantwell who said: "I am saddened by the verdict and I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial"
I e-mailed an old work contact in USA (he's a Republican or DIE) and it seems most of his clan seem to think she is right.
I asked him if the O.J.Simpson trail or Guantanamo Bay is a good example to the Italians of how justice should be applied.
His response was interesting
I guess ya'all have many views on this & would be nice to hear them, especially from USA.
I e-mailed an old work contact in USA (he's a Republican or DIE) and it seems most of his clan seem to think she is right.
I asked him if the O.J.Simpson trail or Guantanamo Bay is a good example to the Italians of how justice should be applied.
His response was interesting
I guess ya'all have many views on this & would be nice to hear them, especially from USA.
Posted on: 07 December 2009 by fatcat
quote:Originally posted by Mike-B:
I guess ya'all have many views on this & would be nice to hear them, especially from USA.
I doubt many Americans have been exposed to unbiased reporting on the matter.
Posted on: 07 December 2009 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
The US sniping at Italian Justice?
Pot, kettle, black. AIUI there was no extradition or punishment of the ( US ) pilots involved in this little escapade.
Pot, kettle, black. AIUI there was no extradition or punishment of the ( US ) pilots involved in this little escapade.
Posted on: 07 December 2009 by Roy T
A trial in open court could be worse could be Gitmo.
Posted on: 07 December 2009 by Massimo Bertola
Hi,
I am not reading much on the matter, I am trying not to be manipulated by the media. The issue with the Italian Justice, though, is not in the Kercher Trial - America has already showed a number of times to the world that they consider themselves beyond judgement - but that the Prime Minister of Italy considers himself like that and is continuously working, along with his media, to denigrate the Italian Justice in general, for his own convenience. Think of the Mills trial.
As for the episode quoted by Mike Lacey, it was a scandal, and unfortunately at the time our Prime Minister was Massimo D'Alema, former PCI secretary, a man on the paper opposite the rascal we have now. Yet, the killing went substantially unpunished, the US pilot was >judged< in the USA, and I don't know what came back to us for that.
There are many millions if Italians who are living the present situation with anguish and filth for their ruling class, and there are many many competent investigators, judges, lawyers who do their painstaking job with care among a myriad of obstacles.
As for the accusation of >anti-americanism<, apart from its being childish and arrogant, it is the more ridiculous in a time when our Prime Minister's attitude towards America is such to rensemble the one of a cartoon or musical character, the devotion of a teenager towards the land of John Wayne, of green berets, of pinups and rodeos.
It's very uncomfortable to be Italians, now. Trust me.
Cordially,
Massimo
I am not reading much on the matter, I am trying not to be manipulated by the media. The issue with the Italian Justice, though, is not in the Kercher Trial - America has already showed a number of times to the world that they consider themselves beyond judgement - but that the Prime Minister of Italy considers himself like that and is continuously working, along with his media, to denigrate the Italian Justice in general, for his own convenience. Think of the Mills trial.
As for the episode quoted by Mike Lacey, it was a scandal, and unfortunately at the time our Prime Minister was Massimo D'Alema, former PCI secretary, a man on the paper opposite the rascal we have now. Yet, the killing went substantially unpunished, the US pilot was >judged< in the USA, and I don't know what came back to us for that.
There are many millions if Italians who are living the present situation with anguish and filth for their ruling class, and there are many many competent investigators, judges, lawyers who do their painstaking job with care among a myriad of obstacles.
As for the accusation of >anti-americanism<, apart from its being childish and arrogant, it is the more ridiculous in a time when our Prime Minister's attitude towards America is such to rensemble the one of a cartoon or musical character, the devotion of a teenager towards the land of John Wayne, of green berets, of pinups and rodeos.
It's very uncomfortable to be Italians, now. Trust me.
Cordially,
Massimo
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by El Guapo
I liked the quote someone said - if she wanted American justice she should have murdered in America
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by gone
My Italian lady and I regularly commented on the different ways the affair was reported in both the UK and Italian press, so I hate to think how the US media covered it.
But I still feel relatively uninformed of the true facts of the case, although it seems that Knox didn't do herself any favours trying to implicate another person, and some of her odd behaviour at times.
But if an Italian jury came up with a guilty verdict, I don't see how the US can criticise their decision - as you say Mike, pot, kettle, black
Cheers
John
But I still feel relatively uninformed of the true facts of the case, although it seems that Knox didn't do herself any favours trying to implicate another person, and some of her odd behaviour at times.
But if an Italian jury came up with a guilty verdict, I don't see how the US can criticise their decision - as you say Mike, pot, kettle, black
Cheers
John
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
Particularly apt in respect of behaving in a correct way in any particular country [with its own particular legal system] might be:-
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
It seems to me that if one goes to say Norway, then one might expect to behave differently than if one had gone to say Saudi Arabia, for example.
Certain things might be regarded as unacceptable in one place - even be criminal under the law of the land - that might be normal enough in the other.
If one stays in any given territory, then one must accept that territory's welcome, its laws, and its judicial system.
ATB from George
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
It seems to me that if one goes to say Norway, then one might expect to behave differently than if one had gone to say Saudi Arabia, for example.
Certain things might be regarded as unacceptable in one place - even be criminal under the law of the land - that might be normal enough in the other.
If one stays in any given territory, then one must accept that territory's welcome, its laws, and its judicial system.
ATB from George
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by gone
Hang on George, we're talking about killing people in this case. Is it so different between Western jurisdictions?
I could accept if there were a different view placed on, say, drinking alcohol in public, or exposure of flesh, but murder would seem to be a bit more consistent in its treatment?
I could accept if there were a different view placed on, say, drinking alcohol in public, or exposure of flesh, but murder would seem to be a bit more consistent in its treatment?
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
Murder is not legal in any country as far as I know.
The point I am making is that if one lives in any given country it is as well to follow the laws, and accept the justice system of that country. That or live somewhere else.
ATB from George
The point I am making is that if one lives in any given country it is as well to follow the laws, and accept the justice system of that country. That or live somewhere else.
ATB from George
Posted on: 08 December 2009 by Paper Plane
I've never understood why this case has attracted so much publicity in the first place. All murders are illegal, as George has pointed out. Is it because this one had a salacious element the gutter press so enjoy?
The other question I'd like to ask is what would the US response have been if it was an American who'd been murdered? Would they have shouted so much about justice then?
steve
The other question I'd like to ask is what would the US response have been if it was an American who'd been murdered? Would they have shouted so much about justice then?
steve
Posted on: 09 December 2009 by Phil Cork
Irrespective of whether there was any 'anti-americanism' involved in the trial, it's always enlightening how much anti-americanism is provoked by such suggestion...
There's probably more anti-american sentiment in some of the above postings than there was in the trial.
Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito were also sentenced for the murder and neither were American, so I too find the suggestion from some US commentators that there was anti-americanism at play in the trial hard to swallow. What I find harder to swallow is the anti-american sentiment that follows such accusations!
Phil
There's probably more anti-american sentiment in some of the above postings than there was in the trial.
Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito were also sentenced for the murder and neither were American, so I too find the suggestion from some US commentators that there was anti-americanism at play in the trial hard to swallow. What I find harder to swallow is the anti-american sentiment that follows such accusations!
Phil
Posted on: 09 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
There's probably more anti-american sentiment in some of the above postings than there was in the trial.
Not from me, Phil.
Please don't use too broad a brush.
ATB from George
Not from me, Phil.
Please don't use too broad a brush.
ATB from George
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by Phil Cork
My dear George,
I think you'll find the words "some of" above exonerate you (and I!) more than adequately.
Even before I added them you had no cause to take my comment personally. Unless you're enjoying yourself?
Phil
I think you'll find the words "some of" above exonerate you (and I!) more than adequately.
Even before I added them you had no cause to take my comment personally. Unless you're enjoying yourself?
Phil
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Phil,
I like your posts, and enjoy you POV, even if I don't always share it!
I saw the "limitations" and so I would ask your patience in reading why I still wrote what I did.
Simply that it is not clear which posts were the ones you thought were most anti-American [anti the USA, I imagine]. I am not always the first cheer leader for the USA and in this case I think their news media has entirely got the story about face, but even in spite of the USA doing things wrong fifty ways first, it usually manages to see sense and do it the British way eventually.
I rather like the USA as a friend in the World, though I do think Britain's place is very firmly at the forefront of EU leadership and influence. As a little and old fashioned nation we shall never have much influence in the USA from now on. For the US, China is much bigger prospect! And there will be huge co-opperation between the US and China in time, just as the UK is Europe's bridge to India.
ATB from George
I like your posts, and enjoy you POV, even if I don't always share it!
I saw the "limitations" and so I would ask your patience in reading why I still wrote what I did.
Simply that it is not clear which posts were the ones you thought were most anti-American [anti the USA, I imagine]. I am not always the first cheer leader for the USA and in this case I think their news media has entirely got the story about face, but even in spite of the USA doing things wrong fifty ways first, it usually manages to see sense and do it the British way eventually.
I rather like the USA as a friend in the World, though I do think Britain's place is very firmly at the forefront of EU leadership and influence. As a little and old fashioned nation we shall never have much influence in the USA from now on. For the US, China is much bigger prospect! And there will be huge co-opperation between the US and China in time, just as the UK is Europe's bridge to India.
ATB from George
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by andrea
What it is the big deal about being anti American?
Personally, I deeply think it is much worse to be anti homosexual, or anti black people, or anti women . . . just a few examples . . . so, what it is so indecent about being anti American?
Back into the Middle Age, there was the crime of "lesa Maestà" I'd translate "offense to His Majesty" . . . . centuries have passed, but . . . . .
OK, the issue here is the suggestion the sentence was biased . . . .
Ahhh let me quote here the great Kurt Vonnegut, God bless him . . .
""In case you haven't noticed, as the result of a shamelessly rigged election in Florida, in which thousands of African Americans were arbitrarily disenfranchised, we now present ourselves to the rest of the world as proud, grinning, jut-jawed, pitiless war-lovers with appalling powerful weaponry - who stand unopposed.
In case you haven't noticed, we are now as feared and hated all over the world as the Nazi's once were.
And with good reason.
In case you haven't noticed, our unelected leaders have dehumanized millions and millions of human beings simply because of their religion and race. We wound 'em and kill 'em and torture 'em and imprison 'em all we want.
Piece of cake.
In case you haven't noticed, we also dehumanize our own soldiers, not because of their religion or race, but because of their low social class.
Send 'em anywhere. Make 'em do anything.
Piece of cake.
The O'Reilly Factor.
So I am a man without a country, except for the librarians and a Chicago paper called "In These Times."
Before we attacked Iraq, the majestic "New York Times" guaranteed there were weapons of destruction there.
Albert Einstein and Mark Twain gave up on the human race at the end of their lives, even though Twain hadn't even seen the First World War. War is now a form of TV entertainment, and what made the First World War so particularly entertaining were two American inventions, barbed wire and the machine gun.
Shrapnel was invented by an Englishman of the same name. Don't you wish you could have something named after you?
Like my distinct betters Einstein and Twain, I now give up on people too. I am a veteran of the Second World War and I have to say this is the not the first time I surrendered to a pitiless war machine.
My last words? "Life is no way to treat and animal, not even a mouse."
Napalm came from Harvard. Veritas!
Our president is a Christian? So was Adolf Hitler.
What can be said to our young people, now that psychopathic personalities, which is to say persons without consciences, without senses of pity or shame, have taken all the money in the treasuries of our government and corporations and made it all their own?"
— Kurt Vonnegut (A Man Without a Country)
Kind regards
Andrea
Personally, I deeply think it is much worse to be anti homosexual, or anti black people, or anti women . . . just a few examples . . . so, what it is so indecent about being anti American?
Back into the Middle Age, there was the crime of "lesa Maestà" I'd translate "offense to His Majesty" . . . . centuries have passed, but . . . . .
OK, the issue here is the suggestion the sentence was biased . . . .
Ahhh let me quote here the great Kurt Vonnegut, God bless him . . .
""In case you haven't noticed, as the result of a shamelessly rigged election in Florida, in which thousands of African Americans were arbitrarily disenfranchised, we now present ourselves to the rest of the world as proud, grinning, jut-jawed, pitiless war-lovers with appalling powerful weaponry - who stand unopposed.
In case you haven't noticed, we are now as feared and hated all over the world as the Nazi's once were.
And with good reason.
In case you haven't noticed, our unelected leaders have dehumanized millions and millions of human beings simply because of their religion and race. We wound 'em and kill 'em and torture 'em and imprison 'em all we want.
Piece of cake.
In case you haven't noticed, we also dehumanize our own soldiers, not because of their religion or race, but because of their low social class.
Send 'em anywhere. Make 'em do anything.
Piece of cake.
The O'Reilly Factor.
So I am a man without a country, except for the librarians and a Chicago paper called "In These Times."
Before we attacked Iraq, the majestic "New York Times" guaranteed there were weapons of destruction there.
Albert Einstein and Mark Twain gave up on the human race at the end of their lives, even though Twain hadn't even seen the First World War. War is now a form of TV entertainment, and what made the First World War so particularly entertaining were two American inventions, barbed wire and the machine gun.
Shrapnel was invented by an Englishman of the same name. Don't you wish you could have something named after you?
Like my distinct betters Einstein and Twain, I now give up on people too. I am a veteran of the Second World War and I have to say this is the not the first time I surrendered to a pitiless war machine.
My last words? "Life is no way to treat and animal, not even a mouse."
Napalm came from Harvard. Veritas!
Our president is a Christian? So was Adolf Hitler.
What can be said to our young people, now that psychopathic personalities, which is to say persons without consciences, without senses of pity or shame, have taken all the money in the treasuries of our government and corporations and made it all their own?"
— Kurt Vonnegut (A Man Without a Country)
Kind regards
Andrea
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by jayd
quote:Originally posted by andrea:
What it is the big deal about being anti American?
<snip>
Andrea,
Kurt Vonnegut is dead. The George Bushes are no longer president. Keep up.
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by JWM
To automatically cast knee-jerk doubt on the 'justice' offered by another free and democratic country, and labelling it as being second-rate and certainly not as good as 'ours', demonstrates and innately imperialistic mindset.
If you don't want to do the Time, don't do the crime.
If you don't want to do the Time, don't do the crime.
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by jayd
quote:Originally posted by JWM:
To automatically cast knee-jerk doubt on the 'justice' offered by another free and democratic country, and labelling it as being second-rate and certainly not as good as 'ours', demonstrates and innately imperialistic mindset.
You give too much credit, in my opinion. Many of the knee-jerkers wouldn't have a clue what the words "innately imperialistic mindset" even mean. Largely, it's simple ignorance (something no country has a monopoly on as far as I know).
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by jayd:
Andrea,
Kurt Vonnegut is dead. The George Bushes are no longer president. Keep up.
But they will be dead eventually, and outside the USA this may cause a sigh of relief ... especially for GWB.
Posted on: 10 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
What do Europeans call Bill Clinton?
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"The indiscretion between the Bushes ..."
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"The indiscretion between the Bushes ..."
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by andrea
quote:Originally posted by jayd:quote:Originally posted by andrea:
What it is the big deal about being anti American?
<snip>
Andrea,
Kurt Vonnegut is dead. The George Bushes are no longer president. Keep up.
Oh my . . . . really?!?!? Geeeee . . . see how life goes fast, and changes . . . any news about Mr B., down here?
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by andrea
quote:Originally posted by jayd:quote:Originally posted by andrea:
What it is the big deal about being anti American?
<snip>
Andrea,
Kurt Vonnegut is dead. The George Bushes are no longer president. Keep up.
And, furthermore, what is the big deal about being dead?
If something is right, what difference does it make if who said that is dead or alive?
We all quote all the time, more often dead than living people . . . or not?
And, further on, don't you know that people die, not ideas and behaviors???
Kind regards
Andrea
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by jayd
Andrea,
Vonnegut took the all-too-easy position of very selectively railing against the American things that irked him, while seemingly ignoring the ones he no doubt valued (among them, the very freedom to publish such an essay without fear of persecution). It's easy to knock American ingenuity (he cites machine guns and napalm as examples), but I expect he did so on a full stomach (courtesy of a phenomenally inventive American agricultural machine) and free of diseases such as polio (courtesy of American-led medical advances).
The Bush v. Gore debacle within which he framed his diatribe happened nearly a decade ago. It appears that your own opinion of America is based on similarly dated context. Don't get me wrong; it's fine with me if you choose to live in the past - it really happened, and there are many lessons to be learned from it. However, there is also a very different, very interesting, and no less instructive present, with new people and new ideas, and with things happening that have never happened before in all of history. If we're lucky, there will be a future as well. Myself, I try to keep my eyes, ears, and mind open.
Vonnegut took the all-too-easy position of very selectively railing against the American things that irked him, while seemingly ignoring the ones he no doubt valued (among them, the very freedom to publish such an essay without fear of persecution). It's easy to knock American ingenuity (he cites machine guns and napalm as examples), but I expect he did so on a full stomach (courtesy of a phenomenally inventive American agricultural machine) and free of diseases such as polio (courtesy of American-led medical advances).
The Bush v. Gore debacle within which he framed his diatribe happened nearly a decade ago. It appears that your own opinion of America is based on similarly dated context. Don't get me wrong; it's fine with me if you choose to live in the past - it really happened, and there are many lessons to be learned from it. However, there is also a very different, very interesting, and no less instructive present, with new people and new ideas, and with things happening that have never happened before in all of history. If we're lucky, there will be a future as well. Myself, I try to keep my eyes, ears, and mind open.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by rodwsmith
Some interesting Italian 'justice' today.
Berlusconi attacked with a cathedral no-less.
Berlusconi attacked with a cathedral no-less.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Naijeru
Regarding this case, I have no interest in anti-Americanism or questioning Italian justice. I just want to know what the hell happened?! There has not been a real satisfactory answer to this question in my view from either the prosecution or the defense. Maybe when the jury explains their verdict there will be *some* clarity, but I am not hopeful.