Forum Rugby Club

Bruce,

I believe that the reduction in neck injuries is a corollary of the introduction of the law not the cause of it.

I'll try to dig up the reference but basically the ARU was suffering a rash of compensation claims for such injuries and pushed the IRB to introduce law would alleviate that. I can see the sense in non-professional level versions of the game, but not at the elite level. The hit is a key part of the scrum IMHO. The cynical viewpoint would say that they couldn't cope in the front rows in Aus.

Another form of tinkering I hear mooted is the abandonment of rolling mauls. Not sure what the rationale is behind that one but again the cynic in me would guess that that idea has been floated by a maul-shy country!

Duncan

Cricky!

We're absolutely gutted. AB's obviously under-performing - yet again. Ah well. Best of luck to the remaining teams left.

Jay

ps Bring back Buck!

Me too. I've been following this AB team for 4 years now and I have to say I was genuinly shocked that we did not manage to beat France on the weekend. I think we could have sealed the game in the first half had we keep the ball in hand and put some pressure on as the few times we did we looked dangerous. I suspect the slender 10 point lead at the break gave the French some real belief that they could win the game.

The reason I am really dissapointed is that I just didn't think that would happen to THIS AB team. We have come from behind to win some tough games in the last 3 years (one in SA in particular). There just seemed to be a difference with this team, a mental toughness or whatever you want to call it.

However I also believe that even though we could have played far better and won that game, we did enough on Sunday to win it.

Yeah I'm annoyed at that Barnes guy for making some really bad calls, but the real issue for me is what was he actually even doing there in that sort of a game. Ok, quarter finals, 4 games. So the IRB picks it's top 4 refs right? Or atleast you would hope, refs in it's top 10. Why the hell was Wayne Barnes calling that game??? Bizarre. This guy had ref'ed what..... 6 internationals before? He is 27 right? Totally bizarre.

Just soooo hard to swallow this when you feel you did have a team good enought to win it, and the IRB can't even ensure you have a top notch ref for such a HUGE game. World cup finals are invariably close, I guess because all the teams rise to the occasion so you really need to refereeing to be up to the task. I'm trying pretty hard to look at it objectively and I can't come to any other conclusion than that this guy was way out of his depth. I'll be interested to watch what happens to this guy (when is he allowed to ref again) to see if the IRB agrees.

The All Blacks should have won that game. Yeah, I guess you have to accept that ref's are always going to make the odd bad call and that this can cost you a match. This just seems to be one step too far. Just really sucks arse that this happened to us at just the wrong time, especially give the history of the AB's in past world cups.



ps. The Mc Alister call was correct? Can't believe some people on here actaully think that. He simply turned to run back toward the goal line and that happened to put him in the direction of an attacking player. What should he have done??? It's simply not possible to turn on a pin head when you are running like that and you are entitiled to hold your line when retreating. Wasn't worth a penalty as I see it. Great work by the French player. Pitty the ref got sucked in.

quote:

The All Blacks should have won that game.

So the reason why the All Blacks lost was entirely out of their own control and blame lies entirely outside of the team, mostly with the inexperienced referee? Let's hope every Kiwi keeps up that kind of mentally. Provided they do we can look forward to another twenty years of All Black choking.
John

quote:

Originally posted by Simon Matthews:

quote:

What truly underlies your argument is that you're glad to see the ABs shat on, cause you know that England scraped through by a gnat's nut, and the ABs would certainly have lifted their game to trounce the English again, like even their club rugby did to the Lions last time.

Scraped through we did. Scrape through you didn't. Those grapes shure sound sour from where I'm sitting.

"New Zealand choked again. Yes, the best team in the world loses when it matters most. Please don't blame the ref, France deserved their win."

quick question everyone - How long are people going to keep calling the AB's the best team in the world when , by the next time, 24 years will have passed since they last lifted the trophy. Talk about basking in past glories. Similar to england with 1966.

France deserved and wanted their win more than the AB's. So to did England who tore Australia's front row apart.

Bye bye and thanks for coming.

Good call Simon, and I have never said anything to the contrary,

BUT the referee was absolutely shocking and should never have been allowed to call such an important game due to his inexperience. Why would you put the most inexperienced ref to control the game between the 6 Nations champions and the Tri Nations Champions???

Barnes's worst mistake was his lack of fairness. He would ping the AB's for whatever he could and ignored the Frence transgressions. Yes the French were offside a hell of a lot, and had their hands in the rucks - but which team wouldn't if they knew the ref was ignoring this!

Finally there is no way McAllister should have been sent off - in fact it shouldn't have even been a penalty! He was sinmply turning around while staying on his line - something which he is entitled to do, but the ref was duped by a brilliant? piece of Hollywood.

quote:

So the reason why the All Blacks lost was entirely out of their own control and blame lies entirely outside of the team, mostly with the inexperienced referee? Let's hope every Kiwi keeps up that kind of mentally. Provided they do we can look forward to another twenty years of All Black choking.
John

Please re-read my post. Especially the top part where I more or less stated the the AB's should have won that game regardless of the referee's performance.

Perhaps I need to elaborate for you John. We tactically left alot to be desired eg. we should have kept the ball in hand for longer in the first half and continued to attack after we scored our first try. Instead we decided to play ping pong which killed time. In the second half we should have used our backline more, and used the pick and go less. We failed to organise a decent drop goal attemp at the end of the game. Our starting 15 should probably have had more game time in the matches leading up to this game. And we should have played the in-form Doug Howlett instead of the out of form Sivivatu.

Well done to the French, they used the circumstances to thier own advantage very well, they played very well won the game and I have no animosity towards them.

I am certaily not suggesting that we lost soley because of the performance of the ref.

I was simply stating that the IRB failed to ensure a high standard of refreeing in a huge match and that it quite possibly (amongst other things) cost us the game.

I hope I have explained my point suffciently this time as clearly I had not with my last post.

quote:

I was simply stating that the IRB failed to ensure a high standard of refreeing in a huge match and that it quite possibly (amongst other things) cost us the game.

Which is exactly what I have been trying to say.

When the ABs lose it's called 'choking'.

When other teams lose what is it called?

'Par for the course'

Therein lies the irony.

Methinks you NZ-supporters doth protest too much

What would be saying about the referee if the All Blacks had won, I wonder?

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
When other teams lose what is it called?

Depends how often you lose when you should of won....

Everybody gets fed up when you feel 'your team' has been denied by bad luck/official/conspiracy. However...

I may be making a sweeping generalisation perhaps but all the NZ supporter comments I've read (on here and in the press) seem to be based on the premise that they should have won/deserved to win because, quite simply everybody knows they are the best team in the world.

No they ain't, because they have failed at the most important test of a great national team, and failed sequentially. I think it is time NZ stopped feeling that they have earned the right to win every game before they walk on the pitch.

I love watching the ABs, I'll confess I would have liked them to win becuase I'd have liked to see them raise their game to take on the top teams later in the tournament. Truth is they did not raise it when needed.

Bruce

Based on a conversation I had today, I'm told statistically the ABs handily had it over the French, and converted that into a 5 point lead. Not usual AB style, but ahead nonetheless.

Considering what would have likely happended to the French if they had a man sent (i.e. they would have been slapped around), it's remarkable that they held the French to only one try. Remeber they lost their key backline player.

Stop making excuses for the reffing. It was utter crap. The ref was inexperienced and made so many mistakes that it cannot be dismissed as 'the odd few, that's how it goes'.

Yes NZ did not alter their game to put the French away, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the officials had an absolute nightmare, when there was absolutely no need to.

The officials have a job to do, regardless of how crap the players play.
They did not do it to an appropriate standard. They made mistakes a schoolboy ref would have been hauled over the coals for.

What's becoming obvious here is that the French are so awful that they cannot capitalise on a
heavily reduced team that is playing poorly.
It makes me laugh to hear you lot lauding the French up like they played some sort of genius game! Scraping in by only 2 points isn't anything to get a biggie over.

Ask the English!

Well, that's test rugby for you. It doesn't matter how you win, or by how much, as long as you win.

New Zealand have been as crafty as any other of the top test sides at 'playing the referee' and I am quite sure they have been the beneficiaries of other questional refereeing decisions in the past. What goes around, comes around........

Joe,
I am quite happy to accept people's comments, but may I ask, in the most friendly of ways, what your particular qualification in rugby is that makes you able to make such finely-drawn judgements about the refereeing (schoolboy errors etc).

Perhaps, like me, you were an armchair spectator for this and the other RWC matches. As part of this, we have the benefit of being able to anaylise and re-anylise slo-mo after slo-mo, plus an impartial commentator and partial pundits - including for this game (I can't remember exactly who it was) a former All Black.

The impartial commentators, with the benefit of the slo-mo, are usual pretty good at spotting and calling significant refereeing errors. The partial pundits certainly are!

My memory (UK coverage) is not one of either the commentator or the pundit screaming throughout about refereeing errors. The McAlister sin-binning was described by the (NZ) pundit as a 50-50 decision - whilst his opinion was that it did warrant a yellow card, he accepted that this incident could be seen differently, and that it did. To me, it was plausibly a bodycheck.

The idea of a reffing panel or video replay does, of course, still depend upon the referee deciding that a decision is dubious enough to refer to the panel/video! Unless, that is, there will be some kind of god-like uber-umpire querying decisions from above, thus removing all credibility or authority from the ref.

Crowds are already getting impatient that almost every Try decision now falls to video ref confirmation, because it slows and slows the pace and flow of the game. Are we really wanting this for almost every decision?

James

[What's becoming obvious here is that the French are so awful that they cannot capitalise on a heavily reduced team that is playing poorly.
It makes me laugh to hear you lot lauding the French up like they played some sort of genius game! Scraping in by only 2 points isn't anything to get a biggie over."

When you are in a hole it's good advice to stop digging. Who gives a monkeys about the size of the win? I really looked forward to seeing NZ show their potential in this world cup. Now, after reading the above comment and seeing the underlying arrogance that comes with it I have to say that it tickles me to see you guys taking an early flight. There are many great rugby nations on this earth of which you are one. What singles you out however is a consistent ability to underperform at the ultimate stage for what now is a considerable period.


OK - the ref was a dissapointement. But the AB's were primarily denied a victory by the way they counld not impose their game plan in the second half. The french clearly played with more fire and belief as the match progressed. The look of fear on the AB's faces was clear for all to see.

Chaps.

It pains me to say it but all this "ref was crap" malarkey really does not wash with me and you're looking very sore losers. I'm not sure what you are being fed back home but you win games by putting the points on the board not by expecting the ref to have "god like" qualities. The AB's have had plenty of "good" calls in the past and we've banked them without complaint.

FWIW I am very surprised with the team's exit at such an early stage. I didn't see it coming and I would also say that neither did most supporters. It's a cruel tournament, you are only as good as your last game - but those are the rules that everyone has to play by. For all the AB's good points they lacked the finishing bottle and I'm sure they'll be the first to admit it.

Jay

quote:

Crowds are already getting impatient that almost every Try decision now falls to video ref confirmation, because it slows and slows the pace and flow of the game. Are we really wanting this for almost every decision?

Even then it doesn't always help. See my earlier
post

quote:

Originally posted by Jay:
Chaps.

It pains me to say it but all this "ref was crap" malarkey really does not wash with me and you're looking very sore losers. I'm not sure what you are being fed back home but you win games by putting the points on the board not by expecting the ref to have "god like" qualities. The AB's have had plenty of "good" calls in the past and we've banked them without complaint.

FWIW I am very surprised with the team's exit at such an early stage. I didn't see it coming and I would also say that neither did most supporters. It's a cruel tournament, you are only as good as your last game - but those are the rules that everyone has to play by. For all the AB's good points they lacked the finishing bottle and I'm sure they'll be the first to admit it.

Jay

Well said. All this ref bashing is getting very tedious. He made some mistakes, as if that has never happened before.

The ABs were disappointingly poor, simple as that.

Steve

Blimey what a carry on!

I'm disappointed the ABs are out as I like to watch them play more than any other side. I did also believe before this competition that they were the best side I had ever seen, they certainly have played the best rugby I have ever seen. However, they are somehow unable to translate that superiority to the World Cup and it seems that this must be a mental issue. They need to forget about the referee - everyone gets bad refereeing performance from time to time - and get on with looking at themsleves to see why they cannot win the sport's premier competition when they are the perpetual favourites. Arrogance or over-confidence could well be the problem. If it is and they refuse to accept that, they will never win it and that will be a shame.

quote:

Originally posted by PJT: 25th May 07
My only fear is the All Blacks inability to change a game plan halfway through a game

It would appear that your 2c worth was right on the money Pete...I don't follow it or even pretend to understand the rules but my boss was saying exactly this after the game...French came back with a different game plan in the second half and the AB's failed to respond - hence a complete turn around in the scores. I only saw the last 15min but it was apparent to my untrained eye that the french were absolutely all over the AB's.

I think an issue of more concern for the AB's than the ref is should be the one of possession. They had 78% of it. 78%!!

I'd lay a small wager that no team in the history of the game where stats have been taken has lost whilst giving their opponents a mere 22% possession. Rugby is a hard game to play and score points in if you don't have the ball ...

Sadly, it is not just AB fans, but at least one AB himself who seems to be a bad loser ...ah well, when you are the best in the world, yada, yada...



All Black winger arrested in London

LONDON (Reuters) - New Zealand rugby player Doug Howlett has been arrested on suspicion of criminal damage after a late-night disturbance outside a London hotel, police said on Wednesday.

The 29-year-old winger, who is the All Blacks’ record try-scorer, was detained at the Hilton at Heathrow Airport, west London, at 3 a.m. on Tuesday.

No more details of the incident were released. Media reports said Howlett was alleged to have jumped on two vehicles in the car park of the hotel where the squad was staying.

Howlett set a New Zealand try-scoring record in a World Cup pool game against Scotland last month. He was dropped for his side’s shock quarter-final defeat to France on Saturday.

All Blacks Manager Darren Shand said Howlett was the only member of the team involved in the incident.

"We are waiting for the police to conclude their inquiries. Once that occurs, we will initiate our own process to look into the incident and related issues," he said in a statement on the All Blacks’ Web site, www.allblacks.com.
"It is a serious matter and we are concerned that something of this nature has occurred at what is already a disappointing time for the team and for our supporters."

Howlett, who is due to join Irish club side Munster, was released on police bail pending further inquiries. He must report to police on an unspecified date later this month.

© 2007 Reuters

James

Rugby players and violence - not that unusual.
http://www.google.com/search?q=rugby+player+assault&sou...n-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
Sadly, it is not just AB fans, but at least one AB himself who seems to be a bad loser ...ah well, when you are the best in the world, yada, yada...

Why is he a bad loser James?

Have ever stayed in a Heathrow Hotel before? He's just as likely woke up in the night driven mad by noise and taken some frustration out on the odd white van...

Prediction time!

France 15 Eng 12 (however could definitely be the other way around)

SA 24 Argentina 6. SA will run them ragged after a tight 60 mins.