Downsizing - the saga continues.
Posted by: Alex S. on 25 August 2001
So, thanks to Tony's refreshing and intelligent approach, I thought I would try combinations of the equipment I have. The sources remained the same: CDS2/CDPS and LP12/Ittok/DV-20X/AW modded Lingo. The power amps also did not change: a single 250 for each pair of speakers. What I changed was the pre-amp and the speakers. I used an 82/S-Cap and a 32.5/Hi-Cap and B&W N805s and original (non bi-wirable) AE1s.
The music I used was as follows: CDs: Moloko, The Time is Now; Ozric Tentacles, Pyramidion; Vinyl: Supertramp, A Soapbox Opera: Shostakovich Piano Conc No.1 (final movement)
So here are the results:
I will start with the speakers since the results are less contentious. The AE1s are fast, tuneful, dynamic and have more bass than a box their size has any right to have. The metal drivers take one hell of a lot of driving. (For decent volume a 32.5 needs to be at 12 o'clock for CD and 4 o'clock for vinyl - but the 250 did not seem to be over over-heating at these levels.). What they don't have is tremendous detail, some musical information just gets lost, and one is aware not that these are very small speakers but that they are in a box. Orchestral music gets a bit squashed. The drivers are well integrated, they image very well and have a surprisingly large sound stage (on hne cableway granite stands and Mana Soundbases). These are fabulous little speakers and I would love to hear a NAP500 give them a real wallop. And the B&Ws? Contrary to popular forum belief, they are just as fast, they are less boxy but have a slight boominess and lack of control in the bass compared to AE1s. They are a lot more refined and sculpt intruments better. A few subtle changes in tempo missed by AE1s are conveyed by the 805s. They also handle transients superbly - the drivers stop as well as start real quick. they make the AE1s sound a little uncouth. As I have often maintained these are refined, seamless and musical speakers, doubtless better than AE1s, but the AE1s, do all the things I really care about very well. Other B&W speakers may be crap for all I know.
So what about the pre-amps?
I must start by saying that an 82/SC is a better preamp combination than a 32.5/HC, but by a surprisingly small margin (in these tests). The 82 is more revealing, more detailed has none of the veiling apparent on a 32.5 by comparison. It also has a little more drive and enthusiasm than its smaller cousin. So what of a 32.5? Wow! this is some preamp with bags of PR&T. It has all the Naim virtues but a lot less "Hi-Fi" merits than an 82. This is very apparent using the B&Ws which seem quite demanding of upstream components but the AE1s still really groove. Consider the price differential of the two combinations and the ability of the cheap one is quite staggering.
I lived with a 32.5 H/C very happily for some years but was overjoyed neither by one nor two hi-caps on the 82 so I thought I would try another comparison: 82/Hi vs 32.5/Super. The results: The veil over the 32.5 is almost completely lifted, also because it is lighter in the bass than an 82 the 805s sounded better controlled (regardless of some loss of detail). Hi-hats impressed. There was foot-tapping a-plently to Pyramidion and the breathiness of the Moloko vocal was impressive. So what of 82/Hi-C? A very sweet top end. But the bass had gone flabby (finally) in the 805s and, whilst it was well extended in the AE1s it had lost some tunefulness. Vocals were good. I would prefer to live with 32.5/S-cap to the 82/HC by some distance. I used to think it hardly worth changing a 32.5 for anything other than an 82 but I've changed my mind, I think one should go straight from 32.5 to 52. Based on these listening tests I would upgrade 32.5/HC to 32.5/SC to 52/SC with no stops in between. The 52 I know to be a leap to another dimension but it is a very revealing pre-amp - any faults with regard to source quality, set-up, supports and room acoustics will be murdered. There is little doubt that a 32.5 is less detailed and revealing than an 82 but it is quite capable of allowing both the LP12 and the CDS2 to show most of what they can do. Nor is it an obvious bottleneck, especially with regard to traditional Naim virtues.
These experiments show that the importance of synergy and balance cannot be overstated when it comes to system building. A very revealing pre-amp could do more harm than good. (Another example of this that I know is that a stand alone CDX, even an XPSed one, sounds worse with a 52 than it does with 82/S-cap). Leaving aside certain hi-fi virtues, the best system, the one that really got me smiling and foot tapping most, that I can presently build is:
CDS2 or LP12/32.5/S-Cap/250/AE1s and I'm not joking when I say this (but could probably do with an outboard phono stage). I hope you believe that I have no axe to grind, no great earth politic, but I'm providing an honest assessment of what my ears, indeed my whole body, have just told me. I also know that CDS2/XPS/52/135s/N805s would give me more pleasure than what I have now in any given combination, but that is also a very well balanced system.
There is no doubt in my mind that maxing out sources is imperative. Just make sure that your power amp can drive your speakers (AE1s really are demanding - a 250 being a minimum requirement). I am certain that I would prefer CDS2/XPS/32.5/Hi-Cap/135s/AE1s to CDX/52/250/SBLs (on Mana Stairway to Heaven).
The question is: will I have the courage of my convictions and flog 82/250/N805s (keeping H/C and buying another 32.5 for home, plus buying phono stage and better cartridge for LP12) or will I keep saving for 52 and 135s - I'll keep you posted.
[This message was edited by Alex S on SATURDAY 25 August 2001 at 14:10.]
I wonder where that leaves my two cats... 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
I know I will be happy, but I'll just pre-empt certain responses by saying I have made up my mind that I want Andy W. modded Lingo/Linto not Geddon/Prefix.
These ain't mutually exclusive! I fully understand the attraction of the Lingo, after all the Gedden really does make 45s sound like crap. The Pefix however is a really neat solution, and if I were a LP12 user it would certainly be my phono stage of choice. I know where there's a cheap hi-cap going to power it too
Tony.
They definitely aren't exclusive, as it's what I use!
The Prefix is a very neat, and, from and engineering perspective, good solution to handling the delicate signal from the cartridge.
Do a dem of Prefix / Linto first, since the Linto is a lot more money and although I've heard good reports about it (my dealer rates it better than Prefix) it doesn't eliminate the arm cable.
This cable carries a very delicate and low level signal and I feel certain it's elimination will bring benefits. Indeed Naim have stated this on the forum, previously.
Other donwsides to the Prefix are RF susceptibility.
Possible Linto downsides could be another bloody mains filter or a horrid switching supply, it may cost more than a meal for that mod
Anyone using a Linto in a Naim system?
Andy.
quote:
Being a creature of habit, I'm pretty sure I would like LP12/Lingo/Linto/Ekos/Arkiv as a combination - I may have to visit the Linn forum for some reassurance on this, that is if I can find it.
I have heard that the Linto is a really good product, though have never heard one myself. Hmmm, I guess that second hand it just about falls into my budget…
quote:
Tony thinks the 72 the first of the new breed - more transparent, better detail, less warm, more forward.
The 72 was certainly the first amp to have the "time align" feature, though I still don't know what this means! I feel a simple explanation by Andrew W or some such electronics boffin is required…
For the record I do really like the new preamps, and given the choice would run a 52 (assuming I had totally maxed out sources), I have also heard excellent results from the 82 and 102, as I have from all the earlier models. I really don't think there has been a dud preamp, though I can see a slight shift of emphasis over the years.
My decision to shift my 32.5 / Hicap / 250 is purely down to a desire to rebalance my system in a more source first manner. What is continuing to amaze me is that I am not really missing it at all… apart from the big fact that I can't play any records without a phono stage 
Going to do the phono stage last though, more time to research my options (I know for certain I want a CDX and QS Ref), and I also don't know exactly how much money I will have raised from the sale of my existing stuff.
Tony.
quote:
I have a similar 'problem' with Andy Weekes' Lingo mod. He's done it, heard what he heard, and others the same, but why does one Linn mains filter make so much difference when there are probably countless others on the same ring and many more in the same street? It all makes no sense to me - but then I'm definitely a low voltage engineer!
Don't ask me either, I was just determined to make the bloody thing work with my Naim gear - I want my 45's.
Keep an eye on the Lingo thread, mischevious Alex S has been talking to Linn about it - seems they've taken an interest in it themselves, and concluded, not surprisingly, that it doesn't work.
Call it revenge I say, it'd be nice to think I've wasted the time of some Linn engineers, it's like getting my own back for the music the Trampolinn robbed me of for years
Not sure where Linn are going these days, but I'm not going there myself.
Andy.