David Davis is an idiot.

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Originally posted by 555:

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What are the problems with civil liberties then?

Now you are frightening me ROTF! I suggest you start here.

Sorry 555 - didn't mean to frighten you - I don't like the idea of anybody being blown up.

I really would like a nice peaceful place for us all, where we can walk about safely. I don't think that groups like Liberty help: they just campaigning against things without putting forward what should be done to keep innocent people safe. We have to accept we're not going to change the world and concentrate on at least making our own little country a decent place to live in.

I don't think that's frightening.

ATB Rotf

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I don't think that groups like Liberty help: they just campaigning against things without putting forward what should be done to keep innocent people safe.

Try telling that to the family & friends of Jean Charles de Menezes.

I our own small way we can inniciate change. Your apparant lack of knowledge &/or regard for the errosion of civil liberties in the U.K. is frightening.

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This is not a road we want to travel. I would prefer that the Billions spent on the morally bankrupt War in, and Occupation of Iraq were spent on better security

Dear George

I agree 100%.

We could and should have spent this money much more sensibly in the UK: better hospitals, better roads, better security, more thorough checks at customs, ensuring jobs for everybody with decent pay and the list goes on.

I'd like to see our troops come home from Iraq and Afghanistan immediately - it is good to hear somebody agrees with me as I thought I was alone in this desire.

These wars waste lives and thousands of £. Do folks in Iraq benefit from us having marched in there, I don't think so - perhaps, I'm wrong as I don't follow the situation and just hear odd items on the news.

I don't think anything will change though as long as the same old (and young) politicians make the decisions.

I know you're going to say I should actively try to change things, but I can't see I'd make any difference. I would really like to live in a better country than the UK, but with so many to choose from I'm spoilt for choice (apparently Britain is at #30 in nice place to live chart, behind Colombia ).

ATB Rotf

Please don't worry I don't think you or I or many members of this forum are likely to be locked up for 42 days. It remains to me a non-issue. They could have left it or changed it as far as I'm aware our security forces can detain people who are suspected terrorists in any case.

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Try telling that to the family & friends of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Hi 555

What happened to Jean Charles de Menezes was appalling, but I don't see what this current debate on how many days we should be able to keep a suspect terrorist in custody would have changed things.

I don't know what provoked the armed police to shoot an innocent man, but I as I have said repeatedly I'm on the side of the innocent and good people. It's terrorist I don't like.

Please don't be frightened - I just don't believe in campaigning and moaning, it isn't going to change a thing. So best just turn up the music and pour another glass of whatever your favourite drink is - these things too must pass away.

ATB Rotf

PS I cannot initiate change - I have no power to do anything, I'm totally insignificant - besides which if I changed things to the way I liked them would you like it? What will be, will be, I'm afraid - same as it ever was. The light at the end of the tunnel is the light of an oncoming train.

So if you want happiness
See things like me
And look only at the things, you want see
Life's just God's joke and that's all it can be
So deeply in St Philip's friend
- The Amboy Dukes from Journey to the Centre of the Mind.

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Please don't worry I don't think you or I or many members of this forum are likely to be locked up for 42 days.

That there are no persons on this forum who might be mistaken for a terrorist is a big assumption. I refer you to the Niemoeller poem KenM posted, as it appears your position is 'me & my mates will be O.K.'

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What happened to Jean Charles de Menezes was appalling, but I don't see what this current debate on how many days we should be able to keep a suspect terrorist in custody would have changed things.
I don't know what provoked the armed police to shoot an innocent man, but I as I have said repeatedly I'm on the side of the innocent and good people.

What happened to JCM was so much more than appalling & no buts. There was no provocation; the official report states the cause was a series of mis-understandings & errors. There are many connections between this & 42 days. These are both examples of erosion of civil liberties, the same idiot government who granted 'shoot to kill' permission want us to trust them on 42 days, etc.

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I just don't believe in campaigning and moaning, it isn't going to change a thing.

Campaigning & moaning are two very different things. I think the Anti-Apartheid Movement proves campaigning can initiate significant change.

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I think the Anti-Apartheid Movement proves campaigning can initiate significant change.

Or was it the will of the people in South Africa that did this.

I'm just not convinced that I and my fellow Anglo-Saxons have made such a great fist of things that we ought to be off around the world telling others how to run their affairs. Best stay home and listen to records and watch some cricket. Why aren't we banning the Olympics BTW - nobody can agree with what happened in Tibet?

I think this is an issue we are unlikely to agree upon. I'm not an activist and I'll not be on any marches - didn't even do that in the 60s, but loved the music. I do make protests in my own quiet way and do all I can to avoid buying products that are made by obnoxious regimes or child labour, but I doubt anybody even notices.

I think Davis's actions were those of an egotist and not of a man who wanted to do anybody any good - at least they were futile - he's ambitious; he wanted to be leader of the Tory party and lest he forget, lets all remind him - he lost and wasn't even close. Still in case he ever reads my posts and to show I bear him no malice, here is a song he can sing whilst reflecting on his achievements

He's a real nowhere man,
Sitting in his nowhere land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere man, please listen,
You don't know what you're missin',
Nowhere man, the world is at your command.

He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere man can you see me at all?

The house of commons debates are mostly little more than you'd hear in a school. Nobody listens to what others say and they never change their mind. Lots of then try to be clever and use what intelligence they have to ridicule and influence others - persuade them they are right even when they are wrong. It's sad, but we can do nothing about it.

That is a very good poem posted by Martin Niemöller - it is used by Nigel Blackwell in Turn A Blind Eye on Four Lads Who Shook The Wirral by HMHB.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

We can all of us bury our heads in the sand concerning the decline of civil liberties, and we all could affect to pretend the erosion of these are insignificant, Wilhelm Furtwangler did that in Nazi Germany, whilst the likes of Adolph Busch voluntarily did not do so, and the likes of Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer [because they were Jews and essentially left wingers] were forced to evacuate and oppose from their geographic positions - inevitably afar.

That you see the situation means that you have a responsibility to do more than bury your head in the sand, by suggesting that you personally can do nothing about it.

To say - in resigned voice - that the outcome is inevitable, is to admit to being a gutless individual. When the march comes upon Westminster, I do hope that you will email me. I will stand between you and the riot police.

Whether Davis is significant or not, the fact that you have voiced a view means you are thinking about it - however uncomfortable the thoughts. Be brave, be strong, take comfort from the fact that there are people who care about this.

I cared with some vehemence about the hunting-ban issue but did not march, but on this I shall, and you will stand next to me if you are a big man.

George

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We can all of us bury our heads in the sand concerning the decline of civil liberties,

Dear George

Although I don't agree with this premises, as I see no decline in civil liberties and do not feel that this country is descending into a Nazi state, I am glad that that there are folk like yourself and 555 around to voice opinions (though please try to enjoy life a bit, it doesn't need to be serious all the time ). Non-violent expression of what one believes, provide one does not preach hatred, is indeed valuable and worth preserving along with the village green and cricket (which to are what it is all about to me - how did we let SA off the hook BTW?).

It goes without saying that I do not agree with the persecution of innocent people no more than I have any sympathy for terrorism. Surely, no right minded person thinks differently.

I'm sorry, but I'll not march - I did not march with the countryside alliance and never would; however much sympathy I feel with the local farming community (my support for them is buying local produce whenever I can). Although as you say we, country-folk. cared with some vehemence about the ban, not to mention all those horrible foxes that keep coming in to my garden since the ban was imposed upon us. Still, a decision was reached and I abide by it - not that I would ever be able to kill anything myself.

The biggest issue today in Britain is the threat to the decent people, like yourself, 555, other forum members, my family and friends and me (I hope I'm considered a decent person), who live in England's once green and pleasant land, is from organised crime, gangs, guns, knives and lunatics who attack people for no good reason. We are also confronted with security issues and we must eradicate terrorism - these are not folk who indulge in reasoned argument.

So I'll leave this thread - I hope I haven't upset anybody.

And wish you all the best.

ATB Rotf

See, this is the problem with this discussion. As soon as one starts talking about David Davis' action, people start talking about civil liberties.

In my view, his action had nothing whatsoever to do with civil liberties and far more to do with his political carer. As soon as I saw that he'd resigned I could not understand how this was a way to make 'the public' vote on a civil liberties issue when all he was doing was forcing a by-election in a constituency where he already had a very good majority! Then the news came out that he and Cameron weren't on best terms anyway, which I discounted at the time, but now I see that he has not been reinstated after all, so perhaps there was something in it after all!

In my view, the resignation was a vain cynical stunt attempting to throw off the dogs and yet maintain Davis' position in parliament. I completely support the other parties for not providing Davis with a validation of this stunt and showing it up for the sham that it truly was.

The sad thing is that our civil liberties are being eroded, and this stunt simply devalued what is happening to our freedoms.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I hope I'm considered a decent person ...

...

ATB Rotf

You are one of the best in my book! Thanks for the exchange!

ATB from George

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Or was it the will of the people in South Africa that did this.

Ultimately yes, but if you read the memoirs of Mandela, Oliver Tambo, Walter Sisulu et al you will learn that the AAM gave them enormous help.
Partly this was the economic pressure due to the boycott on S.A. goods, partly the moral pressure effected by publicising the fundamental injustice of apartheid, & partly giving courage to the oppressed in S.A., because they knew they weren't abandoned by the rest of the world.

Similarly if you read the A.I. website you will see the great amount achieved for political prisoners by individual writing letters to politicians, prison governors, etc.

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I'm just not convinced that I and my fellow Anglo-Saxons have made such a great fist of things that we ought to be off around the world telling others how to run their affairs.

Are you being obtuse? There's a world of difference between being patronising,
& standing up for those who are obviously victim to basic injustice.

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I do make protests in my own quiet way and do all I can to avoid buying products that are made by obnoxious regimes or child labour, but I doubt anybody even notices.

Everything has an effect, & every person that boycotts a product effects change.

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please try to enjoy life a bit ...

I do, & when you realise you are not powerless you might enjoy life more!

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I see no decline in civil liberties and do not feel that this country is descending into a Nazi state ... Non-violent expression of what one believes, provide one does not preach hatred, is indeed valuable and worth preserving ...

There are some frightening parallels between the early years of the German Nazi state & New Labour and the impact they have had (& plan to have) on civil liberties in the UK.
You should try & see the film Taking Liberties. Please read this for more information.
Be warned this will frighten you.

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The biggest issue today in Britain is the threat to ...

If we deny people their basic human rights

Right to Protest

Right to Freedom of Speech

Right to Privacy

Right not to be detained without charge

Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Prohibition from Torture

we are no better than the terrorists, & this is where uk.gov.con appears to be taking us.

Civil liberties are hard won & easily surrendered;
that's why I will be joining George on the march.

However ...

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You are one of the best in my book!

Mine too! We all do the best we can.

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If we deny people their basic human rights

Right to Protest

Right to Freedom of Speech

Right to Privacy

Right not to be detained without charge

Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Prohibition from Torture

we are no better than the terrorists

Couldn't agree more...

We don't torture people in this country. We outsource the job to Pakistan, Guantanamo Bay and Lord knows how many others. Read today's "Guardian" or even the normally very right-wing "Daily Mail".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035253/MI5-acc...curity-agencies.html

And now tell me that there is no problem.

Ken

[Quote from the BBC item on databases: Do we really want the police, security services and other organs of the state to have access to more and more aspects of our private lives?" he said in the report]



If past performance is anything to go by, the phone, email and internet use database would be accessed and used by local councils, social security, every Tom, Dick and Harry with the slightest excuse or inclination. And then, the discs would be left on a train or lost in the post. Life under the microscope, anyone?
Ken

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or even the normally very right-wing "Daily Mail"

What? So right-wing = pro-torture in your mind?

djftw,
Please don't attribute to me remarks or opinions which I have not made. It's irritating.

My point was that the report on torture was being taken up by a newspaper which I would not have expected to campaign on the topic so vigorously, whereas the Guardian regularly features such issues. That is not the same as saying or implying that right-wingers and the Mail are pro-torture and you know it. Your suggestion is scurrilous.
Ken

Ken,

I take very serious exception to your implication which was that those of us to the political right are less concerned about torture than those on the political left. My little bit of reductio ad absurdum scurrilous? Possibly, but no more so than your assertion.

Regards,

Dom

Dom,
There was no assertion. What have you been smoking?
"Those of us to the political right" presumably includes David Davis, who has had my unequivocal support throughout this thread. I don't like all of his beliefs,but on the issue in question I believe he is absolutely right. So, it seems does the Daily Mail. Today's Mail again has a headline condemning erosion of civil rights. I hope that is has an effect.
Regards,
Ken

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What have you been smoking?

Now that is scurrilous! However, I'm sorry if I read more into your comment than you meant by it!

Regards,

Dom