Amarra ,can software make a difference?

Many people believe that "all bit-perfect audio software sounds the same" but why is this true? Do all d Transports sound the same? It seams curious to me that the same people who will spend multi-thousands to replace one good power supply with another (and I dont doubt this makes a difference, but many audiophiles laugh at the Naim way) doubt that there can be differences in how you get an AIFF files to the SPDIF output and onto your DAC.

No one knows for sure, but one theory in how Amarra improves is that all the file is read into memory before it's played. Other information that has come out implies that even when no processing is carried out, there is mathematical changes as it passes through the programming.

Someone said about the time it's take to develop, but the development is actually of the engine as used by Soundblade - a very high level DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) package used by many studios for mastering. Sonic have taken their existing code and built an interface to iTunes around it. There are some hints and rumors coming that other manufacturers of DAWs may release similar in the future.

As for the cost - yes $1500 is a lot, but if you compare the cost of Amarra, a MacMini and a TC FireWire interface to the cos of a Naim HDX the sums end up quite balanced.

Eloise

...though, curiously, the HDX also bypasses the internal Windows (XP Embedded) mixer.

Maybe there's a reason for this...

js,
I assume you mean a na"psc" ? This doesn't sound like a plug-n-play operation. There must be voltage difference.

Will any suitable linear supply help? I guess I should experiment. I have a RatShack supply, but no spare na psc. Am currently using firewire power on my TC.

Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Why on earth wouldn't you use a mac for audio, it is a superb device, the best interface around and it sounds super.

how strange... those are the same reasons I use my PC rather than my macbook.

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieP:
js,
I assume you mean a na"psc" ? This doesn't sound like a plug-n-play operation. There must be voltage difference.

Will any suitable linear supply help? I guess I should experiment. I have a RatShack supply, but no spare na psc. Am currently using firewire power on my TC.

Charlie

Needs a voltage change and plug. You lose a few volts along with the warranty.

greetings pc. drop a line when you are in town.

Mac's and PC's seem to stir up many a discussion.

This is an exciting time, the "early days" of computer audio: there is much to learn; great potential for both audio quality and music access; enthusiasts can tinker meaningfully; things are changing fast...


Cheers, Charlie

Thanks, js.

Oh, hi, Adam! We were just talking about, well, .... oh, nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieP:
greetings pc. drop a line when you are in town.

Mac's and PC's seem to stir up many a discussion.

This is an exciting time, the "early days" of computer audio: there is much to learn; great potential for both audio quality and music access; enthusiasts can tinker meaningfully; things are changing fast...


Cheers, Charlie

What makes me confident about computer audio is how good a standard PC sounds with a mid DAC such as the Lavry. There are hundreds of tweaks and optimizations but the starting point is good enough for switching off most of CDPs.

quote:

how strange... those are the same reasons I use my PC rather than my macbook.

PC, presumably you use something to bypass the sound mixer in the OS, wht do you enjoy about a list of song titles? Or is there an interface that rivals iTunes for a PC?

Eloise, all players can read the bits from the hard drive into memory, and they pass through several FIFO stacks before being decoded into audio.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Barry:
Eloise, all players can read the bits from the hard drive into memory, and they pass through several FIFO stacks before being decoded into audio.

Eric ... I assume you are referring to my comment that Amarra (maybe - it's unproven and not confirmed by Sonic Studio) reads the whole file into memory before playing it ... this is different from iTunes (and most other music players) that continually read the file bit by bit from the hard drive as it needs the information. Just look at disc usage monitor as you play a track on iTunes - it will be continually accessing the disc. With Amarra people are reporting that before any playback commences, the whole of the file is read into memory and so no disk IO is required during playback. This would explain why having a large amount of system memory is important as otherwise it falls back on Virtual Memory (Swap File).

I wasn't trying to justify WHY Amarra sounds better (or doesn't ... the jury is still out on it here) ... just commenting on possible reasons I've read which I hadn't seen mentioned here.

Eloise

quote:

that continually read the file bit by bit from the hard drive as it needs the information

As far as i was aware this was still the case when running Amarra. I'll check tonight what my system is doing. I've certainly not noticed any increase in response times - i can flick back and forth between tracks where i presume if the track had to keep being read into memory then playback wouldn't be instantaneous.

James

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
As far as i was aware this [on the fly reading] was still the case when running Amarra. I'll check tonight what my system is doing.

As I say james - I'm not sure so would be good if someone checked and looked at what their system was doing - all I know is from reading other comments on other forums and a quick test which was rather unsuccessful with my DAC, etc.

I was under the impression that there was some latency between what iTunes was doing and what Amarra was doing and this was given as the explanation. I'm not sure if you've tried, but I understand that if you turn the volume back up in iTunes, you get an echo effect as iTunes is still playing the track, just with a muted output, "behind" Amarra.

Eloise

Sounds like a largish buffer and not a full file store. Every player has buffers. If there are 2 in line, a lag would be normal. Aiff would be the way to go with Amarra to take Itunes out of the loop.

So I'm running with 1Gbyte and the Mac is sluggish. Looking at memory allocation - Amarra seems to typical 1.25Gbytes is reserved - so some paging is going on.

About to purchase 4 Gbyte - and will see what happens then.

Cheers

Richard

DHT,

As long as all volumes are kept at 100% in iTunes there is no involvement of the Mac OS at last in terms of disrupting bit-perfectness or a degradation of sound.

Same goes for Foobar in XP although people swear ASIO sounds different/better.

In my research I have found that the dreaded K-mixer issue is basically a moot point.

-p

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
wht do you enjoy about a list of song titles? Or is there an interface that rivals iTunes for a PC?

Not sure what your are asking re: list of song titles.

And yes there is an interface that destroys iTunes. Foobar. best ever. If it ran on the Mac OS and still played FLACs natively, I would consider using my Macbook as my media puter. But I cannot see any reason to do so when the PC method works perfectly.... and allows for use of EAC, Tag and Rename, Directory Lister, Collectorz Music Database, and many other pieces of software that dont run on a Mac, even in Bootcamp or other ways of emulating/running Windows.

-p

PCStockton Hi, I have downloaded Foobar on one of my PC's, where would you recommend I go to grab cover art,playlists etc? Thanks.

quote:

reads the whole file into memory before playing it

\

Just tried it - NAS disk read light and network activity the same so thats probably not it.

James

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Just tried it - NAS disk read light and network activity the same so thats probably not it.
James

Would it be a good idea to talk to the Amarra support or sales people as to how things work? As far as I know, they are very helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
PCStockton Hi, I have downloaded Foobar on one of my PC's, where would you recommend I go to grab cover art,playlists etc? Thanks.

DHT,

There are many different ways to get album art. I believe there are a few components that will automatically retrieve it for you.

I personally either download art if available, or scan my cover if not, when I do a rip. So all of my Album Folders already have at least a "folder.jpg". I dont need to do any kind of mass art grabbing.

There is this though that I used to get art for the first few hundred rips I did. Back then i didnt think about making sure there was an album cover jpg for everything....

http://sourceforge.net/projects/album-art/

I havent used it in a long time though.


Regarding playlists, you create your own playlists from your library of music, you dont "get" them from somewhere.

You can either drag and drop, open m3u files, double click should send to a new playlist (not sure what the default is)

Keep in mind you can make Foobar do ANYTHING you want, and look any way you want. Just look around in Preferences and see what your options are.

For example. For double clicking on your "Album list" can be set to:
- Send to new playlist
- Send to current playlist
- Queue at end of current playlist
etc.....

Also, there is a setting for:
- Auto start playback at creation new Playlist
- Re-start where foobar left of when clsoing Foobar
- Auto start playing when Foobar is opened..

And thousands more.

I personally have Windows open Foobar upon starting the computer. Then Foobar set to restart where it left off.

This way I can simply turn on the PC and the music starts on its own without any clicks or keystrokes.

Then i use the http conroller in Safari on my iPhone to do whatever I want. No monitor required. sweet.

I have been using Foobar for probably 3 years now so i am very dialed in with it. email me is you have a specific questions. patricks@loewencentre.com

Lastly, hydrogenaudio.com hosts the Foobar Forum and is your resource for 3rd party components, fully custom GUIs, help, FAQs and anything you could possibly want.

I am using the "Foo_Vert" skin, heavily modified.

I will/can post a screen shot to show you how mine looks. They can be as simple as possible or as complex as imaginable.

Patrick will forgive me I hope!

I am managing to completely eliminate the artwork!

I call that a result!

ATb from George

DHT. I believe with the windows software you can use ASIO and adjust buffer settings in the desktop weiss control panel. This is what I would do with a player specific ASIO plugin. Operation mode buffer should be the lowest possible and configure the PC to work that way. We can talk if you try this and need some suggestions. Internal clock. Standard buffer at 512 works well with the TC for up to 96k. It looks very much like a simplified mixerless TC control panel from the description.
MediaMonkey is another decent player if you don't want to build up foobar and I'm familiar with it's output buffer settings in ASIO. If you do find 3.06 as I'm not confident about 3.1 yet. I know some don't think ASIO a big deal but if you try this, you'll be able to compare for yourself by switching the ASIO interface on or off at the player.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Patrick will forgive me I hope!

Of course George....

Given what you seem to prefer program-wise, I agree that art is pointless. If I had only soft watercolors of European landscapes from 200 years ago to look at, I would throw them away as well.

"other" genres have some surprisingly gorgeous art. Superbly designed on very nice quality stock. Expensive inks and impeccable layouts. See just about anything released on John Zorn's Tzadik label.

It could be my illusion but I notice that when I run Amarra together with iTunes, during the time Amarra is turned "off", the music still sounds better than a standalone iTunes. In fact, Amarra is still working very hard even after it is turned off.