Outstanding drummers

Posted by: Rasher on 04 October 2003

My choices would be:
Paul Thompson for the first two Roxy Music albums. My first choice.
Mike Shrieve for the first Santana album.
I think they brought a new level to drumming, made it a real emotional instrument, which others seem not able to do.
Paul Thompson especially.
Keith Moon was a bit good too.
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by Kevin-W
Fred

From this thread, here are some random examples of "wanky" drummers:

Vinnie Colaiuta "(ex of Zappa, Sting): perhaps the most technically capable player on the planet" [so what?]
Dennis Chambers;
Dave Weckl;
Terry Bozzio;
Bill Bruford;
Billy Cobham;
Steve Gadd;
Chester Thompson;
Jon Hiseman; etc etc etc

Of course, I was being provocative to make a point. All these drummers can of course hold down a rhythm. But they are constantly efeated (and defeat the music) by a desire to show off uneccesarily.

You could take any of the above drummers (with the possible exception of Hiseman or Bruford), get them to play on a session, and they'd be pretty much interchangeable. None of them ever impose any playing of character on a record; they can impose lots of flash techniques that turn other drummers on, but little else of consequence. (Remember the old joke: Q: How many drummers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: 10 - one to change the bulb, and nine to talk about how Steve Gadd would have done it

But, can you imagine THE BEATLES without RINGO STARR? LED ZEP without BONZO? CAN without JACKIE LIEBEZEIT? And what about all those fabulous James Brown, Motown, Stax, Philly etc records. Would they have been as brilliantly crisp and as rhythmical if they'd have had Gadd or Weckl instead of Stubblefield, Stacks, Young or Benjamin playing on them? I rather doubt it.

Drumming, more tha any other form of music is about feeling tempered by discipline.

What say you?

(PS) Look at the Who - ever since the death of Moon they've been pretty poor.
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by Top Cat
I thought the topic was "Outstanding drummers" not "Outstanding musicians". Ah well.

Technique on its own is, as you say, meaningless, but the fact remains that there are different ways to be 'outstanding' - such as in terms of your groove, your musicianship, your technique, your ability to blend in or stand out from the band, etc. etc.

I gave two examples. Agreed that some of it is a bit 'w*nky', but then that's technique for you.

John

TC '..'
"Sun went down in honey. Moon came up in wine. Stars were spinnin' dizzy, Lord, the band kept us so busy we forgot about the time."
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by Rasher
Its the same as cheap buffet food. It says "Eat as much as you like" - they read " Eat as much as you can".
I would say Bill Bruford is the worst culprit.
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Its the same as cheap buffet food. It says "Eat as much as you like" - they _read_ " Eat as much as you can".
I would say Bill Bruford is the worst culprit.


I like Bruford as a drummer, he's the major reason I go back to the earlier Yes period (Fragile, etc). But, I think I usnderstand you, I didn't like what I heard of the Earthworks projects. He's a drummer that needs to be working for someone else.

There are many musicians like that. For example, who would Jeff Beck have to work for to make a listenable album ? (I like Guitar Shop with Bozzio).

Peter
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by DISCO
HI Kevin,

And who was the drummer for the Bar-Kays?

The drummer on hits like 'Soul Finger' was Carl Cunningham. He died in the same plane crash that killed Otis Redding & a big chunk of the Barkays.

The next drummers in the Barkays were Roy Cunningham & Willie hall (he was also in the Blues Brothers).

Another drummer of note who did cut it was Al Jackson Jr was in Booker T & the MGs. He also played on many Stax/Volt records.

Dean
Posted on: 09 October 2003 by Martin D
Peter Erskine
Saw him in Bristol absolutely incredible.
Simon Philips
Have a listen to "Grumble" on naimcd002. Cliché demo track or what!
Martin D
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Pete
Deary me... Rasher, if you think Bruford is only capable of excess you're just showing you haven't been listening very hard (or indeed at all) to anything he's done in recent years. I will refer you to any of the current incarnation of Earthworks' releases, and also to the "Summer Ghosts" release with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez (all on DGM). Even back in the Crim days, note how his contribution to Trio for "admirable restraint" gave him a composition credit for not playing anything at all on the track... Hardly grandstanding, is it?

And Kevin-W, as for Steve Gadd being "wanky" you're really showing yourself to be a sad lad with that one. Gadd is widely respected because he's very good indeed, where "good" is playing the right thing, not the most things. I refer you to Tony Levin's remarks on his old college friend (who taught the Ace of Bass to play jazz on the job in NY clubs) in "Beyond the Bass Clef". Bassists get a raw deal if a drummer is "wanky" and only interested in showing off, yet Levin has only the highest praise for Steve Gadd as a drummer. I trust his opinion of drumming ability rather more than yours, because he's been in more rhythm units than many of us have records! Perhaps you could point out to me how he "defeats the music" on Kate & Anna McGarrigle's eponymous album? That needs a totally different set of skills to, say, playing Aja, but he gets just the right thing on each occasion.

Pete.
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Mekon
Or Idris Muhammad?
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Kevin-W
Quote from Pete

And Kevin-W, as for Steve Gadd being "wanky" you're really showing yourself to be a sad lad with that one. Gadd is widely respected because he's very good indeed, where "good" is playing the right thing, not the most things. I refer you to Tony Levin's remarks on his old college friend (who taught the Ace of Bass to play jazz on the job in NY clubs) in "Beyond the Bass Clef". Bassists get a raw deal if a drummer is "wanky" and only interested in showing off, yet Levin has only the highest praise for Steve Gadd as a drummer. I trust his opinion of drumming ability rather more than yours, because he's been in more rhythm units than many of us have records! Perhaps you could point out to me how he "defeats the music" on Kate & Anna McGarrigle's eponymous album? That needs a totally different set of skills to, say, playing Aja, but he gets just the right thing on each occasion.

Reasonable points, Pete, but I have to say that in terms of "wankiness" Gadd and Levin are pretty evenly matched. The McGarrigles' album I loathe anyway, so your points there are completely lost on me. And, just because I'm not a drummer or bassist, doesn't mean I can't comment on which drummers I think are good, or that I like. Enjoyment of music is surely about what you like, or what moves you, not about the ability of the musicians. Or am I wrong? Is drumming connoiseurship reatricted to other drummers? (see Gadd joke above).

The point I'm trying to make is that to be an "outstanding drummer" you don't need to be a flash merchant like Gadd or Cobham or Bozzio. These show-offs constantly get namechecked, while hardly anyone mentions class acts like minimalist Mo Tucker (a vital element in the VU sound), the awesome Jaki Liebezeit (now that realy is astonishing drumming, technically and emotionally), or Clyde Stubblefield. Surely this s a thread about OUTSTANDING drummers, not GRANDSTANDING (often session) drummers?

There are plenty of obviously "technical" drummers I like, like Bonzo Bonham, Moon and Jack de Jonnette, but they bring more to their performances than mere technique.

Kevin
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Tim Jones
It's at this point that I'd like to nominate the enigmatically named "Roland TR808".

He (or she) seems to have played on a geat many hiphop, house and other modern beat tunes. Always very tight, though perhaps lacking a little 'feel' he/she is obviously in great demand.

Tim
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Rasher
Tim - I hope you feel suitably ashamed of your last post. Have you just come back from a Friday luchtime at the pub perhaps? Wink Big Grin
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Tim Jones
No. If only...

I just couldn't resist.

Come on clock, go faster
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Kevin-W
Ad what abut the drummer of the world's greatest power trio?

I'm talking about bald Mick, Chas 'n' Dave's drummer, of course. Great live sticksman!

Kevin
Posted on: 10 October 2003 by Pete
quote:

Reasonable points, Pete, but I have to say that in terms of "wankiness" Gadd and Levin are pretty evenly matched.


If you can only see T-Lev as "wanky" that shows you've made the same mistake for him as well as Gadd. The reason they're loved as musicians isn't because they always play lots of notes, but they always play the appropriate number of notes. Levin can play a different rhythm with each hand on a Stick during a Krim improv that will make your wallpaper peel off, yes, but look more closely and you notice his custom Music Man is a 3 string, emphasizing the fact that less can be more. While playing with ProjeKct 4 he used a 1 string Warr on some pieces.

quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that to be an "outstanding drummer" you don't need to be a flash merchant like Gadd or Cobham or Bozzio. These show-offs constantly get namechecked


The point I'm making, and which is very well demonstrated in an extensive body of work, is that Gadd is only flash where it's appropriate to be flash. Something like the drum break in Aja should display breathtaking virtuosity, but Gadd only uses it where it's needed. Noticed lots of unnecessary fills on his work on Peter Gabriel's "Up"? I doubt it, because it isn't there. Gadd gets namechecked because he does everything well, just like Levin.

quote:
while hardly anyone mentions class acts like minimalist Mo Tucker (a vital element in the VU sound), the awesome Jaki Liebezeit (now that realy is astonishing drumming, technically and emotionally), or Clyde Stubblefield. Surely this s a thread about OUTSTANDING drummers, not GRANDSTANDING (often session) drummers?


Mo Tucker was very good at what she did, but she probably wouldn't be able to play the drum part for Aja. OTOH, you have no credible evidence that Gadd couldn't hold down the drum stool for a band like VU if he wanted to. Fact is, he isn't short of work and someone like VU not only couldn't but wouldn't want to afford him, but that's not the same as him not being able to do it.

Gadd and Levin both have a proven track record of being able to play anything they're presented with. Which can be incredibly simple, incredibly complex, or anything in between. Do you think John Lennon hired Tony Levin because he'd been blown away by his work with Crimson? Puh-leeeeze!

They're both heavily in demand, and not only that but heavily in demand for a huge range of artists, many of whom have no need or want of lots of musical masturbation from the rhythm section beyond holding the groove down. If they only ever did "chops" then they wouldn't have discographies with the range of styles and satisfied customers that they do. Holly Figueroa (American folk muso, you know, those people who just love drum breaks and bass solos all over their recordings...) hired Levin and drum great Jerry Marotta on her last album. In a conversation the producer remarked "you save a lot of money hiring Tony Levin. He listens to the song once, rehearses it once, and records it once. At the end of the day you have an album of fabulous bass parts". Nothing about wanky bass solos, just praise for being amazingly good at his job.

Pete.
Posted on: 13 October 2003 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin-W:
_Fred_

From this thread, here are some random examples of "wanky" drummers:

Vinnie Colaiuta "(ex of Zappa, Sting): perhaps the most technically capable player on the planet" _ [so what?] _
Dennis Chambers;
Dave Weckl;
Terry Bozzio;
Bill Bruford;
Billy Cobham;
Steve Gadd;
Chester Thompson;
Jon Hiseman; etc etc etc

Of course, I was being provocative to make a point. All these drummers can of course hold down a rhythm. But they are constantly efeated (and defeat the music) by a desire to show off uneccesarily.

You could take any of the above drummers (with the possible exception of Hiseman or Bruford), get them to play on a session, and they'd be pretty much interchangeable. None of them ever impose any playing of character on a record; they can impose lots of flash techniques that turn other drummers on, but little else of consequence. (Remember the old joke: _ Q: How many drummers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: 10 - one to change the bulb, and nine to talk about how Steve Gadd would have done it_

But, can you imagine THE BEATLES without RINGO STARR? LED ZEP without BONZO? CAN without JACKIE LIEBEZEIT? And what about all those fabulous James Brown, Motown, Stax, Philly etc records. Would they have been as brilliantly crisp and as rhythmical if they'd have had Gadd or Weckl instead of Stubblefield, Stacks, Young or Benjamin playing on them? I rather doubt it.

Drumming, more tha any other form of music is about feeling tempered by discipline.

What say you?

(PS) Look at the Who - ever since the death of Moon they've been pretty poor.



You've raised several different issues, clouded some of them and painted others with too broad a brush.

There's no question that certain great drummers are equal parts personality and acumen. But there are different ways to serve the music, and there are many great musicians (not just drummers) who serve it well with more transparency, functioning as the hidden support beams holding up the house. When done as well as someone like Jim Keltner, for instance, it is a thing of great beauty, nobility, and art, no less than that of the "characters."

It is a commonly held romantic notion, and a generally false one, that "session" musicians are soulless technicians, devoid of personality. I find that this belief is usually held primarily by non-musicians, and/or by musicians that don't have extensive experience playing with "session" musicians. This notion is far too indiscriminate, and doesn't allow for deeper analysis of the actual music itself, being based mostly on popular mythology.

To be sure, it may true of some musicians, but certainly not a master like Steve Gadd. Others may have displayed a propensity for flash, but never Gadd, who has always played exactly what the music calls for, never more, never less, and done so with maximum groove, sensitivity, swing, taste, and musicality.

As for the other drummers you mention, I'd caution against equating technical virtuosity with a lack of character, passion, and art, ipso facto. Take Chambers (with John Scofield), Colaiuta (with Sting; just heard him last week and Colaiuta was powerful yet understated, eminently musical and tasteful), Thompson (with Weather Report), Cobham (early Mahavishnu), Bozzio (have you heard him with Group 87? It might change your mind), or Bruford (with King Crimson circa early 80s) ... when each of them is/was at their best, they served the music at hand with no less musicality and vision than Ringo or Moon.

By the way, I'm more than slightly amused to be defending Gadd against Ringo ... much more often I'm defending Ringo to jazz musicians. I've always had a problem with the very concept of the "muso," the conceit that there even is such a thing and that it is to be disparaged. The idea that technical acumen is to be artistically distrusted is a kind of romantic anti-intellectualism, a counterpart to the larger cultural myth: artist=soulful, scientist=soulless that, when examined closely, does not hold up.
Posted on: 13 October 2003 by Rasher
OK, so Bill Bruford is "appropriate" in King Crimson, and I for one love KC in all it's guises, but in Yes, Alan White's sense of - I dunno - fun and frivolity?, diffused some of the pompousness of Yes's music where BB was Oh so serious (yawn). AW was also very accomplished with it though, not lacking in any technical skills whatsoever. I just enjoyed his playing much more.
Amazing how a drummer can influence so much. It ain't just tub thumping is it!
Posted on: 14 October 2003 by DISCO
Hi

quote:
I'm talking about bald Mick, Chas 'n' Dave's drummer, of course. Great live sticksman!


I remember seeing Chas 'n' Dave in the 80's when I was a student. They were very good. Yes Bald Mick Burt was a very good drummer. He was in Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers in the 60's along with Chas Hodges. He has had a good grounding.


Dean
Posted on: 14 October 2003 by Bhoyo
We've crossed styles and entire genres in a quest for the ultimate drummer. But no one has mentioned my favourites - the greats of bluegrass.

Davie Smile
Posted on: 14 October 2003 by Pete
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
OK, so Bill Bruford is "appropriate" in King Crimson, and I for one love KC in all it's guises, but in Yes, Alan White's sense of - I dunno - fun and frivolity?, diffused some of the pompousness of Yes's music where BB was Oh so serious (yawn).


One thing I admire about BB is he is primarily interested in developing. He doesn't play what he used to play in Yes, because he's moved on from there. He left Crim because what Crim's doing now isn't what he's interested in (so very much the case that he is no longer "appropriate"!), and neither he or the band are into playing nostalgia gigs. So comparing BB in 1970 and BB in 2003 is fairly meaningless, and IMHO he's better at a far bigger range of things now than he used to be.

Alan White is a great rock drummer. BB is a great prog, avante garde and jazz drummer. He's not so good at straight ahead rock, because he doesn't seem very interested in playing it, but I don't think sticking to what you like is in any way a bad thing to do! People like Steve Gadd seem to like music in just about any form, and be adept at playing any form too AFAICT.

Pete.
Posted on: 15 October 2003 by KT66
as a drummer - my personal faves in no real order are
Billy Ficca from Television - imho the greatest musician ever
Charlie from the Stones, he's white and swings
Clem Burke from Blondie
prior 67 Keith Moon
Mitch Mitchell- the first two Hendrix Lp's
tim
Posted on: 15 October 2003 by monkfish
Hi
Can also vouch for Clem Burke, have rarely seen a drummer with such drive and energy.
Regards
Jim
Posted on: 16 October 2003 by Richard P
Hi
Clem Burke apparently spent an entire Buzzcocks concert watching the best drummer John Maher, but he's not a bad imitation Wink
Posted on: 14 November 2003 by jayd
I mention him as a fave drummer, and just like that, he's gone. crap.

Chic, Power Station drummer dead at 48

LOS ANGELES, California (Billboard) -- Session drummer Tony Thompson, who worked with the likes of Diana Ross, Debbie Harry and Rod Stewart, died Wednesday in Encino, California. He was 48.

He had undergone surgery for renal-cell cancer earlier this year.

Thompson established himself with the hit-making '70s funk group Chic. Following the act's breakup in 1981, he became an in-demand session drummer, also recording behind such stars as Sister Sledge, Mick Jagger, David Bowie, Duran Duran and the late Robert Palmer, among others.

In 1985 -- the same year he drummed with the surviving members of Led Zeppelin at Live Aid -- Thompson joined Palmer and John and Andy Taylor of Duran Duran in the Power Station. The band's self-titled album was certified platinum for U.S. shipments of 1 million copies by the Recording Industry Association of America.

Fans can make donations in Thompson's honor via the TonyThompsonfund.com (http://www.tonythompsonfund.com) Web site.

Copyright 2003 Reuters. All rights reserved.
Posted on: 15 November 2003 by willem
I saw him live yesterday with a quartet led by Guus Janssen. He's a true star and a great person.

willem
Posted on: 17 November 2003 by Fisbey
I always thought Ted McKenna from Alex Harveys band (and later Rory Gallagher) was a pretty nifty drummer!