Sexuality, sexual orientation, and Western civilaization
Posted by: Phil Barry on 20 February 2004
I have long wondered why my society (the US) shows so much contempt for male homosexuals.
The primary cause I could think of for homophobia is an extremely wide-spread and deep fear of one's own latent homosexuality - but this has never made sense to me. I simply think that most people don't need to attack others just because they think they are attracted to a person of their gender.
This morning, while listening to NPR I heard yet another male express his outrage that same-sex marriage demeans 'real' marriage, I expressed my curiosity about the source of the speaker's opposition to homosexuals.
My wife, a psychotherapist, responded that some current thinkers in psych circles hypothesize that rejectors of homosexuality are probably rejecting sexuality as a whole.
So, I ask readers for their thoughts on the sources of homophobia. Does it setm from natural human tendencies, or just from patriarchal societies? Do cultures that don't derive from the Bible have similar beliefs?
Phil
The primary cause I could think of for homophobia is an extremely wide-spread and deep fear of one's own latent homosexuality - but this has never made sense to me. I simply think that most people don't need to attack others just because they think they are attracted to a person of their gender.
This morning, while listening to NPR I heard yet another male express his outrage that same-sex marriage demeans 'real' marriage, I expressed my curiosity about the source of the speaker's opposition to homosexuals.
My wife, a psychotherapist, responded that some current thinkers in psych circles hypothesize that rejectors of homosexuality are probably rejecting sexuality as a whole.
So, I ask readers for their thoughts on the sources of homophobia. Does it setm from natural human tendencies, or just from patriarchal societies? Do cultures that don't derive from the Bible have similar beliefs?
Phil
'Homerphobia - a fear of the Simpsons'
But on a more serious note.......
No, bugger it. I can't face another debate. I've never understood predudice. I don't care what gender, color, sexuality, race, creed, ability, intellect, religion or height you are. I dislike everyone equally.
I also believe that you can't choose who you fall in love with. You just do.
Stephen
But on a more serious note.......
No, bugger it. I can't face another debate. I've never understood predudice. I don't care what gender, color, sexuality, race, creed, ability, intellect, religion or height you are. I dislike everyone equally.
I also believe that you can't choose who you fall in love with. You just do.
Stephen
Maybe I should rephrase 'bugger it....'
S
S
Hmmm
Interesting post, on a complex subject.
I'd say, just scratching the surface of it mind, that the mid-west right wing fundamentalist Christian movement in the US, pushes pretty hard with a political agenda to actively oppose homosexuality at every turn that it can, and to thus influence social values and perceptions wherever possible.
Sadly the nature of fundamentalist absolutionist Christianity is not far distanced from any other sort of religious absolutionist fundamentalism in that it proposes infallible scripture, always interpreted literally, albeit usually quite selectively, and imposed without further thought or question upon the followers/victims. Who then, in their sense of either superiority, or perhaps insecurity go on to foister their views upon anyone they can influence, and by any means in whatever particular arenas they consider desirable for their cause.
As has been previously stated, one can use the Bible to justify most views one may choose to take on the subject, and sadly the fundamentalist never questions his dogma, merely follows it and foists it upon all and sundry.
In my experience religious fundamentalism would be one of, but far from being the only, cause of homophobia.
Gender roles, mainly learned from childhood seem to come into it as well, as in the early lessons of boys wear blue, and girls wear pink, to boys playing in sandpits, whilst little girls play with dolls and helping Mommy in the kitchen etc. Those who then go on to a fairly polarised view of life given such relatively clearly defined early childhood 'roles' seem to be loath to accept differences - partly I feel because accepting difference brings into question the validity of the role that they have 'choosen' for themselves, and the easiest and least fearful way to deal with this, is not to question themselves, but to question the difference.
As an example, I speak well. As I am not Australian born, I do not have an Australian accent. It is therefore often assumed that I must be gay, because I speak well. I am basing this comment on remarks I have received from other people in various work situations.
Perhaps it was the incongruity of the particular work place, with an accent that would be deemed more at place in an office/admin situation that made my then work colleagues come to this formation of ideas and judgements.
Perhaps because I was relaxed about myself, and saw no need to make exaggerated displays of so called Masculine traits, that they felt insecure about the difference and needed to deal with it as I have pointed out, not by questioning their own 'role' but by putting what they perceived to be mine, down.
And at times they did so quite overtly, as I was subjected to a not inconsiderable amount of verbal abuse, sexual harrasement, and even physical assault in a couple of instances.
All this homophobia was based purely on the way I spoke, nothing more, but they could not handle the difference basically.
Most interestingly, the perpetrators of this homophobia towards me were basically Anglo Saxon, plus some Southern European and middle eastern folks mixed in. What was perhaps even more interesting in that particular work place, was that there were also quite a few Indian students working, who, I guess by their different cultural conditioning, displayed what a typical Anglo Saxon would describe as latent homosexual behaviour; holding hands, leaning on each others shoulders, arms around each other etc, but because they were from a different culture entirely, that was somehow accepted and deemed quite OK.
So my contention then, is that one of the causes of homophobia has to be the inability of a culture to accept differences from within itself, based mostly upon insecurity as far as I am able to tell based as it is not upon careful social study, but my own experiences.
I for the better part, got on reasonably well with the Indian students, certainly more so than the Caucasions, and had a few interesting discussions re the subject we're discussing here.
Naturally, my observations are limited to a small group of people, so I am not in any position to say it is Indian culture generally, and would be most interested to hear of other viewpoints/experiences on their culture, however it does appear to be a very male dominated society, and the males tend to congregate in groups, with quite overt displays of affection between them. Further, one fellow I spoke to shared the experience that he had slept with many of his friends, as in sexually, and that it was 'known' and considered a part of his culture, provided it wasn't public - as he stated he still had his wife, and others their girlfriends, but if they were together in a group out somewhere, and ended up staying overnight together, 'things went on' as he put it 'behind the curtain' which was seen as being part of normal life.
BUT, and this is the interesting part, this was NOT seen as being bi-sexual, or gay, just a normal part of life and their culture as he saw it. On the other hand, to say the actions he discussed participating in, he, or his friends might be bi, or gay, was a HUGE NO-NO, in no uncertain terms, and quite unacceptable in his society and cultural viewpoint - at which point he showed as much homophobia as anyone else!
So again, from my own personal experiences, I conclude that cultural and gender conditioning, mixed in with fundamentalist religious ideology would be some of the more fundamental causes of homophobia, however there will be many more to be sure.
Sorry about the long post - heheh, interesting subject to me, particularly as I've been on the receiving end of homophobia myself.
Best Regards to All
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Interesting post, on a complex subject.
I'd say, just scratching the surface of it mind, that the mid-west right wing fundamentalist Christian movement in the US, pushes pretty hard with a political agenda to actively oppose homosexuality at every turn that it can, and to thus influence social values and perceptions wherever possible.
Sadly the nature of fundamentalist absolutionist Christianity is not far distanced from any other sort of religious absolutionist fundamentalism in that it proposes infallible scripture, always interpreted literally, albeit usually quite selectively, and imposed without further thought or question upon the followers/victims. Who then, in their sense of either superiority, or perhaps insecurity go on to foister their views upon anyone they can influence, and by any means in whatever particular arenas they consider desirable for their cause.
As has been previously stated, one can use the Bible to justify most views one may choose to take on the subject, and sadly the fundamentalist never questions his dogma, merely follows it and foists it upon all and sundry.
In my experience religious fundamentalism would be one of, but far from being the only, cause of homophobia.
Gender roles, mainly learned from childhood seem to come into it as well, as in the early lessons of boys wear blue, and girls wear pink, to boys playing in sandpits, whilst little girls play with dolls and helping Mommy in the kitchen etc. Those who then go on to a fairly polarised view of life given such relatively clearly defined early childhood 'roles' seem to be loath to accept differences - partly I feel because accepting difference brings into question the validity of the role that they have 'choosen' for themselves, and the easiest and least fearful way to deal with this, is not to question themselves, but to question the difference.
As an example, I speak well. As I am not Australian born, I do not have an Australian accent. It is therefore often assumed that I must be gay, because I speak well. I am basing this comment on remarks I have received from other people in various work situations.
Perhaps it was the incongruity of the particular work place, with an accent that would be deemed more at place in an office/admin situation that made my then work colleagues come to this formation of ideas and judgements.
Perhaps because I was relaxed about myself, and saw no need to make exaggerated displays of so called Masculine traits, that they felt insecure about the difference and needed to deal with it as I have pointed out, not by questioning their own 'role' but by putting what they perceived to be mine, down.
And at times they did so quite overtly, as I was subjected to a not inconsiderable amount of verbal abuse, sexual harrasement, and even physical assault in a couple of instances.
All this homophobia was based purely on the way I spoke, nothing more, but they could not handle the difference basically.
Most interestingly, the perpetrators of this homophobia towards me were basically Anglo Saxon, plus some Southern European and middle eastern folks mixed in. What was perhaps even more interesting in that particular work place, was that there were also quite a few Indian students working, who, I guess by their different cultural conditioning, displayed what a typical Anglo Saxon would describe as latent homosexual behaviour; holding hands, leaning on each others shoulders, arms around each other etc, but because they were from a different culture entirely, that was somehow accepted and deemed quite OK.
So my contention then, is that one of the causes of homophobia has to be the inability of a culture to accept differences from within itself, based mostly upon insecurity as far as I am able to tell based as it is not upon careful social study, but my own experiences.
I for the better part, got on reasonably well with the Indian students, certainly more so than the Caucasions, and had a few interesting discussions re the subject we're discussing here.
Naturally, my observations are limited to a small group of people, so I am not in any position to say it is Indian culture generally, and would be most interested to hear of other viewpoints/experiences on their culture, however it does appear to be a very male dominated society, and the males tend to congregate in groups, with quite overt displays of affection between them. Further, one fellow I spoke to shared the experience that he had slept with many of his friends, as in sexually, and that it was 'known' and considered a part of his culture, provided it wasn't public - as he stated he still had his wife, and others their girlfriends, but if they were together in a group out somewhere, and ended up staying overnight together, 'things went on' as he put it 'behind the curtain' which was seen as being part of normal life.
BUT, and this is the interesting part, this was NOT seen as being bi-sexual, or gay, just a normal part of life and their culture as he saw it. On the other hand, to say the actions he discussed participating in, he, or his friends might be bi, or gay, was a HUGE NO-NO, in no uncertain terms, and quite unacceptable in his society and cultural viewpoint - at which point he showed as much homophobia as anyone else!
So again, from my own personal experiences, I conclude that cultural and gender conditioning, mixed in with fundamentalist religious ideology would be some of the more fundamental causes of homophobia, however there will be many more to be sure.
Sorry about the long post - heheh, interesting subject to me, particularly as I've been on the receiving end of homophobia myself.
Best Regards to All
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Although obviously short sleeved polycotton shirts *are* an abomniation before God and you'll be damned for eternitiy should you choose to wear one.
And ironically it is St Michael that makes them!
All those Euro-hip clubber dudes and their shiny shirts are going to hell. Awesome.
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Barry:
Another possible source of homophobia is envy, now that I think of it.
Phil,
Good thread.
I think there is an element of truth in this but I think for reasons that have nothing to do with sex. I personally don't want to have sex with another bloke and don't feel the slightest bit of envy for blokes having sex with each other, regardless of how much higher their experience may rate on the "subjective-pleasureometer" than mine. I have to admit that the thought of anything sexual between two men makes me feel a bit squeamish (sorry boys) and yet (strangely) I feel somewhat differently about sex between women. Yup.
My theory is that the same type of envy that fuels Anti-Semitism is also responsible in part for modern-day homophobia. Jewish men and Gay men are typically over-represented in the "clever bastard" stakes (Jewish = good at business, music and comedy ; Gay = creative/extravert/funny) and what pisses a redneck off more than an over-achiever ?
P.S. Fredrik : Thanks for sharing
[This message was edited by Minky on MONDAY 23 February 2004 at 05:06.]
Minky -- You mean Jackie Mason is Gay!
Crikey.
Matthew
Crikey.
Matthew