NDX vs Akurate DS....first impression from a dealer

@ Jan,

do you think a NDX+555PSU could hit a Klimax DS?

Ralf

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:

7/ Compared a 2y old (first version) HDX with CDS3/555PS and HDX was better.

Thanks Jan, that tells me a lot about these comparisons. They are so personal. I don't rate the HDX on it's own, even compared to an nDac. Which would seem to be borne out by those who have bought one as an upgrade for their HDX.


Joe

You are talking about colossal amounts of money here - is the quality really 5X the Uniti et al?

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Are you a reviewer?

No, and if I would, I would have told you already.
As I previously said, I'm just a customer that took the opportunity to test some naim equipment.
It was not in my home, nor at a Naim retailer - it was on "neutral territory" avoiding any influence that could offbalance results.

T38.45 - as the test system wasn't exactly as my own and in an unknown room I cant say anything sorry.
But I really REALLY hope NDX/555 is better than my KDS!!!
Competition is what drives evolution forward.

Joe Bidd - you're welcomed!
But before you compare a CDplayer with the network players, make sure the ripping is good and the network is without disturbances!
Based on my 3y experience with KDS, the NAS/HDD, cat-cables, switch etc AFFECT the performance.

I have tested numerous ripping SW (including different settings in the SW) as that affects the musical result. Crazy I know but even the PC running the ripping SW affects the result.
Some PCs just creates a more musical file.

And different NAS, HDD and even internal RAM and fan (in the NAS) affect performance.

Likely, it's all about minimizing disturbances arriving to the player.
It's NOT disturbances in the "0" and "1", but more likely dirt polluting the power network that then arrive to the player/pre/power amp. Remember the network equipment is not designed to coexist with extremely sensitive stereo equipment.
Both naim and Linn equipment are, as we all know, extremely sensitive for bad grounding and bad power delivery.

To minimize disturbances, I have my KDS only connected to a switch/NAS. Nothing more. No internet connection, no additional PCs, nothing that could disturb the KDS.
And I have the NAS/switch on a good HIFI furniture. That would be Fraim for the naim enthusiasts.

So just hooking up a network player isn’t going to make it full justice.

Now I expect getting “you are crazy”, "it cant be any difference on HDDs you fool” but I’m used hearing this during 3years so just bash me as you like… I don’t mind.

I just ask you to first test. More and more linnies have over the years admitted this DO make a difference.
Remember when “it was crazy” that a CDplayer can sound different as “it’s just 1s and 0s”…well now we know better!

Hi Jan,
good posting!
there is some noise in Linn forum about future updated KDS as well...
2011 will be the streaming year ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by T38.45:
Hi Jan,
good posting!
there is some noise in Linn forum about future updated KDS as well...
2011 will be the streaming year ;-)

Indeed I am itching to buy a streamer (even though my PC is doing an awesome job) - but I am holding out to see what everyone has up their sleeve in 2011.

Can't wait

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
Is all this not a bit confusing? Hdx not as good as ndx on dac. New ads on naim dac? why this at all?is the bare linn not good enough? why a linn at all then ? Ndx and serve not as good as hdx,but with xps better ,but on dac not as good and so on.

now the possibilities and combination just raising,like lego for adults ? sorry to tell , but naim made me wait for two years with investment and i even feel more confused now.in the end you always ending up with a three box solution to get the presentation you wish.somehow this fact puts me off !

Wishy washy dealers don't help the matter. I suspect the one box NDX, or DS is plenty good at giving a presentation most would covet but the sometimes this ones better and sometimes the other isn't helping anybody. Have an opinion or just bite your tongue and say listen for yourself.

One-box NDX is plenty for most systems, even without a power supply, external DAC or pixie dust–all demos going forward will likely include this as a primary source option.

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:


To minimize disturbances, I have my KDS only connected to a switch/NAS. Nothing more. No internet connection, no additional PCs, nothing that could disturb the KDS.
And I have the NAS/switch on a good HIFI furniture. That would be Fraim for the naim enthusiasts.

What Cat-cables and Switches do you prefer?

Hello David, it sounds like you have conducted some protype testing. Could you share your thoughts on what difference the 555 made to the NDX? Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by js:

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
Is all this not a bit confusing? Hdx not as good as ndx on dac. New ads on naim dac? why this at all?is the bare linn not good enough? why a linn at all then ? Ndx and serve not as good as hdx,but with xps better ,but on dac not as good and so on.
now the possibilities and combination just raising,like lego for adults ? sorry to tell , but naim made me wait for two years with investment and i even feel more confused now.in the end you always ending up with a three box solution to get the presentation you wish.somehow this fact puts me off !

Wishy washy dealers don't help the matter. I suspect the one box NDX, or DS is plenty good at giving a presentation most would covet but the sometimes this ones better and sometimes the other isn't helping anybody. Have an opinion or just bite your tongue and say listen for yourself.

Sorrt to hear the Linn equipment being so problematic - try Naim next time.

Regarding ripping you should try doing in the middle of the night. I've found 3AM - 5AM being the best. I suggest you re-rip and listen again. The improvement is absolutely stunning!! I've found the night between thursday and friday giving best results.

Sorry

/JanL

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:

To minimize disturbances, I have my KDS only connected to a switch/NAS. Nothing more. No internet connection, no additional PCs, nothing that could disturb the KDS.
And I have the NAS/switch on a good HIFI furniture. That would be Fraim for the naim enthusiasts.

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AllenB:
Are you a reviewer?

No, and if I would, I would have told you already.

But I really REALLY hope NDX/555 is better than my KDS!!!

It won't be



But before you compare a CDplayer with the network players, make sure the ripping is good and the network is without disturbances!
Based on my 3y experience with KDS, the NAS/HDD, cat-cables, switch etc AFFECT the performance.

Agree totally


Likely, it's all about minimizing disturbances arriving to the player.
It's NOT disturbances in the "0" and "1", but more likely dirt polluting the power network that then arrive to the player/pre/power amp. Remember the network equipment is not designed to coexist with extremely sensitive stereo equipment.
Both naim and Linn equipment are, as we all know, extremely sensitive for bad grounding and bad power delivery.

To minimize disturbances, I have my KDS only connected to a switch/NAS. Nothing more. No internet connection, no additional PCs, nothing that could disturb the KDS.
And I have the NAS/switch on a good HIFI furniture. That would be Fraim for the naim enthusiasts.

So just hooking up a network player isn’t going to make it full justice.



Very wise words. I unfortunately only have a twin socket near my hi-fi to play with. I have plugged an Experience power supply filtration unit into one socket to which are connected the
Supercap, NAT02, Akurate DS, Radikal and CB250. The other socket has a double adaptor to connect the Netgear switch power supply and RipNAS to.

Only thing that goes into the back of my ADS is the cable from the Netgear switch (which sits on the Isoblue next to the NAT02.

The whole connections from router to ADS/RipNAS are hard wired across as well, not wireless.

It's not perfect but I've done what I can to minimise unwanted effects and keep some of grounding of "sensitive" hi-fi intact.

Regards RR

quote:

Originally posted by jlarsson:
Sorrt to hear the Linn equipment being so problematic - try Naim next time.

Not what I call problematic, just attention to detail.
Even a preamp from Naim require careful installation to perform 100% imho.

Regarding trying Naim next time, I can assure you I buy the best performing products regardless of brand name, as I always have.

quote:

Originally posted by Tonkis nr2:
What Cat-cables and Switches do you prefer?

NETGEAR GS108T is the best I tried, out of 10 different.(likely the GS108T PSU send out less dirt on the mains compared with other switches)

The "free" combined router/switch/wireless access point you get with your internet connectiion is likely a disaster. Avoid!


Micro Connect SSTP CAT6 is quite good. Best of roughly 50 cables. And cost nothing...

Many cables are very good, most of them are cat6 and some cat7. More or less all cat5 is less good.
Why? no idea. Better shielding on cat6/7 perhaps?

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:

quote:

Originally posted by Tonkis nr2:
What Cat-cables and Switches do you prefer?

NETGEAR GS108T is the best I tried, out of 10 different.(likely the GS108T PSU send out less dirt on the mains compared with other switches)

The "free" combined router/switch/wireless access point you get with your internet connectiion is likely a disaster. Avoid!


Micro Connect SSTP CAT6 is quite good. Best of roughly 50 cables. And cost nothing...

Many cables are very good, most of them are cat6 and some cat7. More or less all cat5 is less good.
Why? no idea. Better shielding on cat6/7 perhaps?

OK, thanks

LINN Recommends Netgear FS108 which is quite cheap, have you tried FS108/FS105?

I use a DLINK DPA 855 AP as swtich today, I guess that's not optimal. I get much better sound q via USB than via Network for my UQ...

It is all too easy as Hifi moves into the world of computers to become obsessive about things that have little if any impact on the sound.

I'm new to Naim but not to IT and find it very difficult to believe that the "quality" of a router or switch is really that important. Network protocols were developed to ensure that data arrives intact and in the real world this means that if you get your music stream you will hear music. IMHO the quality of that music is then down to the renderer and the rest of your kit.

Worrying about the quality of your Cat cables and switches is like convincing yourself that "Go Faster Stripes" make your car more sporty.

Next you will be worrying about the quality of the air, sunspot activity and the intelligence of your politicians.

"That way madness lies"

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
It is all too easy as Hifi moves into the world of computers to become obsessive about things that have little if any impact on the sound.

I'm new to Naim but not to IT and find it very difficult to believe that the "quality" of a router or switch is really that important. Network protocols were developed to ensure that data arrives intact and in the real world this means that if you get your music stream you will hear music. IMHO the quality of that music is then down to the renderer and the rest of your kit.

Worrying about the quality of your Cat cables and switches is like convincing yourself that "Go Faster Stripes" make your car more sporty.

Next you will be worrying about the quality of the air, sunspot activity and the intelligence of your politicians.

"That way madness lies"

Tog

I know it sounds strange, I have a master degree i Computer Science/Electronics and I can't explain exactly what happens. Is it noise from power units or what? Normal time faults (Jitter) is easy to understand but what affect the IP-communication is more tricky..

But I must believe what I hear, there are relevant differences between network eqiupment. I know persons that have KDS that tried out hundreds of cat-cables.

quote:

Originally posted by Tonkis nr2:
LINN Recommends Netgear FS108 which is quite cheap, have you tried FS108/FS105?

I use a DLINK DPA 855 AP as swtich today, I guess that's not optimal. I get much better sound q via USB than via Network for my UQ...

I own the FS108 and tried FS105. Not so good but very small differences.
Each of the network optimization going to make a tiny difference but together they sum up.

And if your normal HIFI system isn't installed correctly (good rack, power cables etc, speaker positioning etc) each of network tweaks going to be difficult to hear...
Same as individual LP12 tweaks (torque settings etc) going to be difficult to hear in same system.

The IMPORTANT message is:
A/ follow the recommendations on Linn home page regarding equipment and architecture (=gives a "good enough" baseline)
B/AWOID the rubbish network equipment
C/ AWOID complicated architecture. (a simple and separate HIFI network is best)

What Naim recommends? Check with them.

Don't have enough experience with USB so I pass on that question, sorry. Only post conclusions that I can stand fully behind.

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
Network protocols were developed to ensure that data arrives intact and in the real world this means that if you get your music stream you will hear music.

You totally missed the point.
Nobody taking about data corruption.

It's all (I think) about using network equipment that don't disturb the HIFI system (dirt om mains etc)

Ever read the debate that Linn Lingo kill the performance on a Naim system by sending out noise on the power network?
This is likely similar...nothing strange really!
And not news either.

And the disturbance from a "bad NAS" can affect whatever equipment in the HIFI system. Not necessarily the network player only. But how can we know, we just hear a difference.
Same as the bad effect from a Lingo...

hi Jan,

how close comes a ADS to KDS?
does it justify (from your point of view) 3x the price?
thx

Ralf

quote:

Originally posted by Tog: Next you will be worrying about the quality of the air...

I'm surprised that no one has addressed this yet, given that, ultimately, air is the medium by which music is transmitted, through repeated compressions and rarefactions. Now, considering that dust particles in the sub-micron range can remain suspended for days, notably through Brownian movement, it is conceivable that such contamination of the compression/rarefaction cycle is akin to noise in the signal path. It is important to place an air cleaner in your room for 24 hours prior to any serious listening. Additionally, you may wish to experiment with different gases in your listening room, as the speed of sound depends on the type of gas. For example, 1284 m/s in pure hydrogen, as opposed to 343 m/s in air. If you're concerned about sudden deflagration, you can always use helium (965 m/s). Timing is improved substantially, with noticeable gains in clarity and hilarity, but rapid loss of family and friends.

Jan-Erik (sorry, couldn't resist)

quote:

Originally posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:
...Timing is improved substantially, with noticeable gains in clarity and hilarity, but rapid loss of family and friends...

And that's why you always want to keep a canary in your listening room.

But seriously (or as semi-serious as one can be given where this thread has gone...), Jim Smith, in his book "Get Better Sound", tells the story of a listening room whose bass become noticeably looser/heavier during the summer (and leaner in the winter). Turned out that the room had three outside walls, and despite being temperature controlled, its relatively new construction materials significantly expanded in the heat and humidity (and contracted in the cold and dry).

His solution was to the speakers closer together (more warmth) and farther apart with the change in seasons.

He said it wasn't a huge difference -- about 1dB across the spectral balance. But apparently it bugged the room's owner enough to hire him to fix.

So, yes, the air may have an effect...

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:

7/ Compared a 2y old (first version) HDX with CDS3/555PS and HDX was better. And the new HDX SSD is better still.

This tells me all I need to know.

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:

quote:

Originally posted by JanÅ:

7/ Compared a 2y old (first version) HDX with CDS3/555PS and HDX was better. And the new HDX SSD is better still.

This tells me all I need to know.

There is an echo on this page.

quote:

Originally posted by T38.45:
how close comes a ADS to KDS?
does it justify (from your point of view) 3x the price?

Justify? No of course not. But I still bought the KDS back then.