Full Spec LP12 vs. CDS3?

Mike,

Had a conversation with Ron Toolsie about that.

Ron??? Your thoughts???


Marc

She asked for a Grand piano.
All I could give her was an upright organ...

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Had a conversation with Ron Toolsie about that.

Ron??? Your thoughts???

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Well, my LP12 is not exactly top spec. I am still using the Pre-Cirkus bearing (currently being fitted) and it is only on a phase2 Mana wall shelf. But it does have a dedicated Supercap for the Prefix- a welcome hand-me-down from my previous active system.

With the Lyra HelikonSL the LP12 was very sligthly ahead of the CDS3 (admittedly still in its initial burn-in period)in a few ways on the very best LPs....vocals were more precise, and overtly warm and analog-sounding in a very credible way. With the Lyra Titan the gap increased somewhat- the same vocals became as realistic as the 52 allows them to be, and totally lacking in the subliminal compression on vocal soars that seems endogenous to the Helikon. The very top end was both more extended and exactly on the beat as compared to the CDS3. I should note that the LP12 seemed a tad on the tonaly light side with a subjective roll-off at the LF end, something I believe may be addressed with the Cirkus upgrade. But on several of the LP vs CD, it was the CD with the CDS3 that came ahead. I would hazard that the very best of the LP12 is capable of outperforming the very best of the CDS3, but the median performance of the CDS3 is going to be rather higher than that of the LP12 due almost entirely to the spotty quality of LPs in general.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

My LP12/Aro/XX2 sounds very similar sonically to the CDS2/XPS2, but in terms of musical involvement I prefer the CD player, the LP12 isn't far behind the CD player is better. The LP12 produces slightly better sonics, but slightly worse music if you get my drift. Both are on the same support.

Oh dear.

Andrew

Tell me instead then. I promise not to say oh dear but reserve the right to say 'interesting' and ask some supplementary questions.

Ron

Interesting. I would love to hear your assesment once the Circus is run in and the CDS3 is burned in.

Whilst I currently maintain that vinyl is better I haven't heard a CDS3 and would be delighted if it raises the CD standard to the level of a full on LP12. I've been waiting a long while.

Regards
Steve

An interesting thread ... is it making the assumption that the LP12 is the pinnacle of vinyl reproduction?

"Comparisons are odious"

Oscar Wilde?

I am about to take delivery of a CDS3. I still expect my low-spec LP12 (Ittok/DV 10x4) to produce music in a way that the CD player will not.

It's that indefinable vinyl something. I'm currently listening to stuff on a Nakamichi cassette deck, recorded from vinyl , over 20 years ago and even that has a certain something.

Go figure.

May I humbly suggest that Linn lend me a full-spec LP12 and Naim lend me a CDS3 - I will carry out extensive listening tests over, say, the next ten to fifteen years, I will then report back.


Mike

This article is well worth the read on the difference between vinyl and digital:

http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?23

John

Interesting! Thanks Andrew

Nice to hear a tale about the quest for music rather than better kit. In that respect I judge you more noble than I.

Regards
Steve

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
I did the dem between P9 v LP12 v CDS3. It was close but the turntables won, just. and they were only using MM cartridges. With a decent cartridge the TT would be way ahead.

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

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Tom,

I know you are a bit of a self styled hifi expert, but I don't agree with you. Sorry.

Dev

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
But during ththose particular tests there were about 6-7 of us listening and it was unanimous in favour of the turntables. I'll be getting my P9 next week and then I'll reassess if a turntable is better than a CDS2/XPS.

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

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Ah ha! Classic hifi argument retort of '6 or 7 of us' that means you were all right and Dev is deaf.

I still think you (all seven of you) are wrong. So ner.

Dev

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
just lacking the ability to listen "properly".
Actively enjoying it all

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But Tom, you like Dire Straits which is just totally uncool

Deaf Dev

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I would hazard that the very best of the LP12 is capable of outperforming the very best of the CDS3, but the median performance of the CDS3 is going to be rather higher than that of the LP12 due almost entirely to the spotty quality of LPs in general.

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Agree totally with Ron here (even if poor me only uses a CDS2 against the LP12). The really good LP:s, particulary Direct to Disc ones from the 1970-s, are unbeatable, but they are a rarity. Also original vinyl from the 1960-70-s are still usually a tad better than the latest and hyped remastered CD:s, but if you can't get hold of the vinyl you can live on happily with the CD. I do in most of the cases.

JohanR

Great post Andrew.

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
I have never claimed to be an expert, far from it. I was just reporting my findings which differ from yours, which of course are wrong as usual

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Don't be so hard on yourself Tom, I am sure you are not always wrong

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I would hazard that the very best of the LP12 is capable of outperforming the very best of the CDS3, but the median performance of the CDS3 is going to be rather higher than that of the LP12 due almost entirely to the spotty quality of LPs in general.

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I'm confused I have found LPs to be farrrr more consistent in sound quality that CDs. No contest! I only found 1 CD that was better than the vinyl version but that was easily rectified by finding the first pressing. The only CDs that approach vinyl are the MFSL/XRCD CDs. I haven't heard a CDS3 but I think the problem isn't the CD players it the CDs.

Dev: I think you also prefer the new 250 to the 135s. I suspect your musical priorities are different from others. My LP12 does music in ways the CDS1 and CDS2 only dreamed of.

John

Tom -

Your P9 will be XX-2'd won't it? From my experience of CDS2 vs P9/DV17D2 mk2-and-a-half, it's close. Both are on Mana wall shelves.

I tried this with two things yesterday which I have on both CD and vinyl - Massive Attack's 'Inertia Creeps' (on 12" vinyl) and XTC's fantastic 'Black Sea' album.

On the Massive Attack it was very close, and a bit of a cliche'd comparison. The CD player won on some aspects of sonic impressiveness, especially in sheer bass extension, but overall the P9 clinched it by virtue of a slightly crisper mid and a more compelling musical performance.

With XTC the P9 was more clearly the winner. The drum engineering on Black Sea is exemplary and the P9 really revelled in them, with a sense of momentum and speed that the CDS2 could not compete with. But the P9 also seemed better at digging into the complexities of the music -especially letting me hear what the bass player was doing.

Tim

Tim, Tom

This is an LP12 thread!

Take your P9s and be off with you! Start up your own thread. After all, you're with the big boys - we listen to music you know - and you Rega owners may not be able to cope with our big midbass humps

Kevin

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Dev: I think you also prefer the new 250 to the 135s. I suspect your musical priorities are different from others. My LP12 does music in ways the CDS1 and CDS2 only dreamed of.

John

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John,

This hobby will always be such a personal thing, but I found with the addition of the XPS2, Super Burndy, new 250 and Fraim, lifted the performance of the CDS2 to better than LP12. When I had Mana and XPS1 I found the LP12 to be superior.

Now I am happy that both sources are really great, but I find the CDS2 as set up above to be more musically thrilling. It gives more drive, propulsion, energy, etc, it also sounds more relaxed in a LP12 way if that makes sense.

I do agree that on some albums in my collection are just fantastic and probably cannot be equalled on CD, but with the advent of the CDS3 it tells me that there is more to be had with CD players.

Just my view, and not to be taken too seriously.

Dev

I think the key point in this thread is that comments indicate the gap has closed between LP and CD to the point where it has become seriously debatable. I don't actually care whether a CDS3 is better than my fully loaded LP12, the key point for me is that it is probably now worth a serious dem of a CD player. All sorts of factors affect absolute and relative performance and my bet is still on vinyl but maybe CD is now delivering the original promise?

Regards
Steve

You really have to consider the availability of music on each medium. If you can have only one of the media, I'd recommend...tuna. But between LP and CD, if I had to give one up, it would be LP.

A key point here is that one needs to spend a lot of money to get high levels of involvement from CD, expecially compared to LP.

I could live with a Rega P2, Nait 5, and cheap speakers, and up until a couple of years ago (my last foray into the hifi market), a similarly priced CD-based system would have been hard to love. Even a Planet/Nait system would have been difficult to listen to for people who grew up on vinyl.

But then I already have a record collection...and a tuna.

Personally, the CDS(1) represents 'entry'-level high involvement CD for me, and it's a lot more affrodable, if riskier, than a CDS3. In fact, a CD5/'cap is very involving, though it costs more than a CDS. Again, since I'm used to high quality LP, my evaluation of CD may be different from other people's.

I think we should ALL be grateful that good CDPs are available. CD is the only way to listen to newly recorded classical music, and it's by far the cheapest way to listen to historical performances, so good CDPs are a boon to mankind.

Regards.

Phil

Dev,

You must have done something magical to your system, 'cos when I heard it your CDS2 sounded like a bag of nails, unlike the LP12 which was sublime

Andy.

The CDS2 doesn't work on the Fraim (took me two years to figure that one out) and neither does a pre cirkus LP12.

A new LP12 does sound quite good (read amazing) though you need to have 3M feet a non naim phono stage and a spare pan scourer handy.

Go figure

P

Possibly

Quite possibly

Or a huge great chair of course..........

P

Tom I thought you disposed of the Comfy Chair...next, the fluffed up cushions....

Some great responses from people I had hoped would express an opinion - my comment to muddy the waters is that a recent review of the Akiva said that whenever CD got close to vinyl, Linn move the goalposts - and they have done it with the Akiva. ( I paraphrase a recent glossy review. )

To me - my opinion - this is the near ultimate cartridge for the Sondek - has anyone heard an LP12 with this on vs. the CDS3?

Regrettably I am away for two weeks and unlikley to be able to comment in the meantime, but I am enjoying reading all this.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy