What is the effect of the Fraim compared to Mana?

"musicality" is the classic cop-out term that is used on Hi-fi forums when someone compares two products, finds one offers far more in terms of how accurately it portrays the music, yet refuses to accept/believe that it is better

OK, this doesn't just get my goat -- it's making me reach for the sick bag.

Thomas

Possibly a question for Mr Toon. I have a standard late eighties Linn/Naim set up with Shahinian Arc speakers. I've used various relatively cheap stands, Target, S.O. etc at my house and am curious as to Mana is on a stone floor. The area where the TT and electronics are set up is stone flagging and the rest of the room has a suspended oak floor. I've heard Mana on wood and carpeted floors and am intrigued as to what effect it has on a stone base.

Noel.

John, you're not paying attention: "musicality" = "it's fun to listen too" = "there was just so much more music" etc. (you could establish subsets that surely everyone here would agree exist, e.g. timing).

So if someone utters this:

The cello clearly sounded more realistic ... with ABC. Yet it just wasn't musical enough, so I bought XYZ.

it amounts to the same thing as:

The cello clearly sounded more realistic ... with ABC. Yet it just wasn't realistic enough, so I bought XYZ.

which is, of course, nonsense (unless the person meant "tonally realistic but hopeless in terms of timing").

On the Mana forum (for example) people get chastised for using descriptive words (and, indeed, the word "musicality"), however, when someone comes on and says "I added another phase ... there was just so much more music/it was just so much more fun/etc." no-one objects -- why is that not "lazy"? "It really plays music" differs from "It is very musical" only in terms of grammar.

The entire argument is artifically elevated to one about different ways of making purchasing decisions/Mana vs. Fraim/"being a true music lover" vs. "blind brand loyalty"/this vs. that etc. The terminology is distributed arbitrarily, there is nothing to it either way, and your argument is akin to: Because someone utters the phrase "Rome is the capital of France", the word "capital" is meaningless whenever it's used.

Thomas

[This message was edited by Thomas K on TUESDAY 02 December 2003 at 14:18.]

Imagine this:
Mana is bought out by Naim and is marketed as a parallel range to Fraim for those that like a slightly different presentation and have a greater ability and willingness to fiddle (if necessary).
Now...lets re-run this thread and see how opinions change..

The only thing i have to ask re this thread is where someone said you should compare Mana to Fraim at the same price points.
e.g. phase 4 Mana vs Fraim.
I don't buy that because they are inherantly differant designs.
If my mana on a soundstage sounds as good as a Fraim then i'll stay with Mana, but thats the comparison I'll make because the designs are differant. Also, I do Like the modular ability of Fraim thus making it future proof - this is always a factor.
I have used my Mana on both wooden and concrete floors, and it has been fine. I will still try the Fraim tho because what do I have to lose (except about £1300!).
With all possible respect its still down to the room and the mains re racks, isn't it? (Oh as well as what kit you are using on them...)

Thomas,

You have rather neatly summed up what I was about to write.

And I would further argue that the whole Mana Vs Fraim (and its variants) is just a big excuse for people to have a good old fashioned ding-dong.

Matthew

Musicality - pertaining to the fundamental elements of musical reproduction - those from which listeners may derive emotional satisfaction (er, the whole raison d'être of playing and reproduction of music) as opposed to

Hi-fi - sonic prowess of the means of reproduction.

These are my humble definitions.



Regards,

Steve.

They are indeed humble.

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I would assume, therefore, that the better the hi-fi (i.e. the higher the fidelity) the better the musicality?

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In theory yes; in practise not necessarily.

More high fidelity may just mean better dynamics and a bigger soundstage, or hearing the third row violinist fart...

More musicality may mean more accurate reproduction of the attack, sustain, decay and harmonics of each and every note and the interplay between them.



Regards,

Steve.

In future, if I use the term "musical" then please infer the above.

It's a lot less long-winded.



Regards,

Steve.

A new beer thread

Bass is ok, but from round the corner on Shobnall Road you've got Marstons.

I prefer the latter.



Regards,

Steve.

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Originally posted by andy c:
Also, I do Like the modular ability of Fraim thus making it future proof - this is always a factor.

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Errr..well at least until you decide that the appearance of a big telly table is looking dated. Not yet, granted, but the appearance will date.

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the auditioner is deaf, stupid or wrong?

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John replied:

No, and I don't recall ever stating that. That is your (incorrect) interpretation of what I wrote.

If someone prefers Fraim, entirely fair enough! The point I was making was that in a lot of cases the Mana wasn't given a fair chance because it hadn't been set up with the due care and attention it deserves.

John,

First...thanks for clarifying your position. All too often I see posts similar to yours that imply Manaless-ones are ignorant or sheep...and it gets real old, real quick. Glad you're not of this mindset.

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not everyone wants to risk a multi-thousand dollar investment

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John replied:

Let's not exaggerate the "risk"! It isn't a risk because you _will_ get it setup properly, it might just take you two or three tries to get there, if you're having difficulties.

A bit of patience and it is done. I do not expect to make any alteration to my Mana until I get some more, which will probably be many months away.

The trouble is people tend to rush it, since it is pretty tedious to do, and consequently mess it up.

Dave replies:

Agreed regarding "patience" (besides better setup instructions), and that eventual successful setup will occur (an opinion many Mana Forum posters seem to deny as a cop-out to those that simply don't care for what Mana does to the sound).

Again, thank you for acknowledging there are "anti-Mana" opinions with validity.

peace,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 03:25.]

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The difference between the stands is easy to see, just from the reactions here:

Mana is bought by people who like to fiddle with their nuts.

Fraim is bought by rich people who have lost the will to fiddle with their nuts.

Hutter is bought by those that like Ikea styling, and are usually the same sort of people as Fraim owners, just in a lower tax bracket.

Quadraspire (which has been largely ignored by this thread so far) is bought by those that have a penchant for '70's tea trolleys.

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Alex.

Funniest reply thus far.

And yes, I do have a tea trolly from '70s and the rack itself was nothing spectacular.
Zoethecus with Neuance replacment shelves, OTOH, is not bad inspite they are not on the Naim *approved* list.

I see why people are passionate about the racks with Naim gear. I have seen thing so sensitive to vibration off a cd player. CDX2 must not have enough suspension like others.

I have not tried the rack/shelf effect with CDS3 which had better suspension mechanism than CDX2. ( would be curious to see when the time comes )

I've also found vibration damping/ controlling device effective with power supply units.

[This message was edited by kuma on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 08:37.]

Clarifications

Oh dear! I hope those of you who've read my second post on this thread did not get the wrong impressions that I was saying Mana doesn't work, period.

If hi-fi listening is based purely on personal perception and enjoyment, then the Mana does work for some of us, if set-up properly. That's a very big "if", and a very big "whether" for me, which was my main contention when I had them in my system.

I've not looked back since.

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I do think that you are exaggerating dramatically the effort needed to set up Mana!
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Perhaps, yes, but given the amount of people who screw it up, perhaps not....

The trouble is people tend to rush it, since it is pretty tedious to do, and consequently mess it up.

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John, thanks for clarifying and for being able to retain a more neutral composure despite our obvious differences in opinion. Your set-up pointers provided some insight; but we really ought to have met online many many moons ago when the oil rigs (quite liked the look of them actually ) were still intact in the room. Still, the thought of so much uncertainty from a mere rack-set-up wrecks most nerves, and is daunting, to say the least. I get bored pretty quickly when things don't sound like they should after the money's been paid, though that's not to say I have little patience.

I pays my moneys to enjoy and relax, not to tense up unnecessarily.

Fraims/Hutter for me.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

[This message was edited by Philip Pang on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 11:15.]

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At least the Fraim setup incorrectly will not ham-string an otherwise properly functioning system...as a matter of fact, a Fraim incorrectly setup still sounds better than any other support device I've used.

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Dave, also why I'd choose the Fraims, when the time eventually comes.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

[This message was edited by Philip Pang on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 10:50.]

[This message was edited by Philip Pang on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 11:11.]

Exaggerating The Reality of A Rack Set-Up

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I do think that you are exaggerating dramatically the effort needed to set up Mana! And the set up is worth it!

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Greetings, DJH, from one Singaporean to another. Funny how we need a distant Forum from a foreign land to meet, and I'm not sure we have met in person.

I am glad to read that you didn't have to trudge through the Mana set-up experience with your system. The Quads ought to be singing beautifully. I wish my system sang with the Manas, but it didn't for the longest time. Shat sonic bricks while they lasted, but dramatic exaggeration of my effort taken, or of the effort most people take it certainly was not.

Geesh, shouldn't have caught Yoda recently on TV.

Let's meet with our light sabres.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

[This message was edited by Philip Pang on WEDNESDAY 03 December 2003 at 11:13.]

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OH JOY!

A thread about Mana. What a bonus. It's not like we've never been here before.

The difference between the stands is easy to see, just from the reactions here:

Mana is bought by people who like to fiddle with their nuts.

Fraim is bought by rich people who have lost the will to fiddle with their nuts.

Hutter is bought by those that like Ikea styling, and are usually the same sort of people as Fraim owners, just in a lower tax bracket.

Quadraspire (which has been largely ignored by this thread so far) is bought by those that have a penchant for '70's tea trolleys.

All other stands are, of course, rubbish.

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Alex, yours gets my vote for Rack Post of the Year.

It had me in stitches.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

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To me a ruthlessly, truly and genuinely accurate system _must_ be highly enjoyable to listen to. Because it should sound very close to the real thing, so how could it not be!

The whole "musicality" is independent or above-and-beyond "accuracy" or "Hi-fi-ness" argument seems to me to be completely bogus.

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Accuracy bits get so tiring...Why is it so important to audiophiles?

I don't know if my system has ever been *accurate* or *neutral* but, I enjoy it and that's all it matters.

I do agree that a so-called revealing system, a kind that makes less than perfect recording practically unlistenable is necessarily *accurate* or truer.
I'd think that it's a perfect excuse for an ill-set up system. ( just blame it on a digital media )

Conversely, musicality is the word that tossed around a lot and it's too subjective to pin point what it is for each listener. I am not sure if there is a consensus on *musicality* either.

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You could argue that all of the above are direct functions of hearing more "detail". If you lose detail, you must by definition be losing some harmonic definition, for example.

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Hi-fi and musicality are not mutually exclusive entities.

If you lose certain, say, leading-edge detail you don't necessarily lose harmonic definition.

A given sonic presentation may lose out on the harmonic info at the same time as maximising the leading edge detail.



Regards,

Steve.

Naim amps on Quadraspire Reference reproduce the harmonic detail superbly.



Regards,

Steve.

Rack Bliss

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Philip, I know that my rack is perfectly setup and I do not worry about it in the least!

My system sounds great to me, so everything must be fine

John.

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John, I am always happy to hear any Forum member say they find that their system sounds great, and that they are happy with it.

That's what Hi Fi listening should be all about : personal enjoyment of the music played on the system, based on our very individual perceptions (which can and will differ from listener to listener).

As for you knowing that your Mana rack is perfectly set-up, I am happy for you.

Now, when's that sexy Fraim I'm thinking of getting ever coming?

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

quote:

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Naim amps on Quadraspire Reference reproduce the harmonic detail superbly.

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And there was me hoping that the art of humour wasn't entirely lost...

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But perhaps not in Wrexham.



Regards,

Steve.